Was surfing the web and came across this http://enamelcollection.com/gas-oil-petro-c-77.html

Thanks Mobil100 , most of this stuff I've seen on ebay being sold as 100% Originals Now we at least know where some of the stuff is coming from .Thanks this is good Information

This is really getting BAD!!!!!!!
Look at the sinclair sign???
It's marked SP-2 JUST LIKE THE ORIGINALS!!
http://enamelcollection.com/pennsylvania-sinclair-dino-enamel-sign-pi-228.html

http://enamelcollection.com/green-streak-gasoline-enamel-sign-pi-227.html

Thanks mobil100 as I've NOT seen these!
These also need to be added to repo section!

------------------


[This message has been edited by tomzcollectiblez (edited 08-15-2007).]

Tom.........i posted these signs under "known unmarked repos" on 06-18- 2007 ..............the guy goes by "wholesalecandyshop" on ebay & is from Argentina..........
This new posting is of his website..........

http://www.oldgas.com/shoptalk/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000067.html


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...bayphotohosting

[This message has been edited by roadrelics@aol.com (edited 08-15-2007).]

Darryl,
This seller is NOT "wholesalecandyshop" from Argentina. Note the website contact info...

73, rue de Rollingergrund
L - 2440 Luxemburgo
G. D. de Luxemburgo- EUROPA

However, these are the same signs sold by "wholesalecandyshop". I think this seller is closer to the source. My assumption is that the repops are manufactured in eastern Europe.

check out the two Shell Green Streak signs on ebay. One looks like it could be real but the other one looks like one of these pop-offs. What do you all think?

How come websites and catalogs can be set up and shipped out for reproduction pumps and signs and globes and all that? and that is accepted? Then this guy is selling repros and trying to create an "old" look with the signs, and he's some crook. That's funny to me. The problem is that there is support for reproductions to start with. From the very beginning, repros have been nothing but cheesy, wanna-be, rediculous, fakes that have done NOTHING to this hobby(or whatever you want want to call it)but take it down and jeopardize it. Repros suck!!! There is no "good" repro, there is no "ok, that's cool" repro, there is no "acceptable" repro to me...... I think that every single one lacks any and everything that this "hobby" is fundamentally based upon. They are nothing but true bastardized exploitation! That's it ....... just my true, hard(heart) felt, deepest thoughts and opinion on the entire matter. They are horrible. And they were brought forth and accepted by the people and friends of the people who now hate them. Don't support reproductions!!! OF ANY KIND !!! Down with the fakes! Death to repros!!!

WITHOUT REPRODUCTION PARTS, VERY few pumps could be restored back to original condition.

WITHOUT REPRODUCTION SIGNS/DECALS VERY few could be branded.

WITHOUT REPRODUCTION GLOBES VERY few could afford to have a globe of their choice on their pump[s].

REPRODUCTIONS DO HAVE A PLACE IN THIS HOBBY, BUT, THEY DO NEED TO BE DATED.
Even in Kyle Moore's collection of gas pumps, decals had to be RE-CREATED to restore the pump back to original condition +.

I have yet to see ANYONES collection of gas pumps that DOESN'T HAVE RE-CREATED DECALS on SOME of the pumps.
db

Thanks for correcting me Pablo, it just shows this network is probably growing......

Respectfully, BBQ Chicken i wished we could only have originals however the hobby we have created only lets people with a substantial income afford these great signs of Americana.........I believe there is a place for reproductions so people who can't afford to go buy a $500 sign can go buy a nice repo for $29............However they should be marked, dated & sold by a licensed dealer only & i also know that raises more issues but we need some type of regulation........

this whole repo thing is turning into a monster & these people from other countries are trying to duplicate our originals & they bypass all regulations,licensing etc. etc.

i also know there are people here in the U.S. doing the same thing & they should be treatd just like any foreigner who reproduces these signs with intent to defraud......

[This message has been edited by roadrelics@aol.com (edited 08-15-2007).]

I feel both Green Streak signs on ebay are genuine. The repro has only 2 mounting holes (top and bottom) not 4 like the ebay signs. Both signs on ebay have mounting holes in the same locations. Would like to see backsides of all three signs.

Someone needs to get angry and HIRE A LAWYER!
If I had BIG $$$ invested in signs, It would be NOTHING to spend a little chump change and RETAIN a lawyer to chase these guys down!!!!
Thats what it's gonna take!!!
Get the cops Knockin' on their door!

I just look at a repro as a repro. They are all the same - no matter what they are on, or if they are sitting by themself...... it doesn't matter. It's not true to form. From a "moral" point of view, it's totally immoral. It's contamination. They contaminate a true pure element and reduce it to a "well, this is the best I could do, or as close as I could get." It would be much more embracing to see a pump with either original decaling, or just a non-branded pump restored with an original picture near it of that pump from the era from which it came. Now that's to me, to me, I ain't the rest of the world out there, but I do know that a lot of people woud agree with me. My whole point with this is that a repro is a repro. There can't be a "double standard" where it's OK here to use a repro in this use or situation, but it's frowned upon when it's used here. IT'S STIL A REPRO..... FAKE. It's almost like, hey, if the maker(production) person is fooling people with his or her work, then they are doing their job! Right? If people can't tell and aren't educated enough to know the difference, then somebody made a good sign. Right? Death to all repros!!! Even parts, just leave it off, don't sterilize or contaminate the purity. Down with ALL REPROS!!! That's all I have to say about that.

[This message has been edited by BBQ Chicken (edited 08-15-2007).]

I posted pics of the Green Streaks under known unmarked reproductions before I viewed this thread. Sorry, not trying to beat on a dying horse.

[This message has been edited by gaspower (edited 08-15-2007).]

I think you guys need to take a closer look at the Green Streak signs. One is genuine but the one just listed does not have the same grommet pattern and look who is selling it. Our friend from Argentina. Wholesalecandy shop. That should prove what it is.

Gary, There are currently three Green Streak signs on eBay. The first two are listed by U.S. sellers and appear to be genuine. The third which was listed yesterday by the South American vendor is the fake.

BBQ Chicken, are you not glad to live in a country where you can reproduce something IF you want to???

Now how you present that product is the crux of the issue..

Thanks Bill, I finally got the third one to show. "Shell Green Streak Sign" only has 2 results, but just "Green Streak" got me there. And you are correct. Thanks again.

BBQ Chicken
I see what you are saying but the repro vendors on this site would never try to pass off what they are selling as authentic. That's the difference.
I'd rather have the real item just like anyone but I can't afford the $500 sign or find one in good shape.
Without repro's every old car, juke box, coke machine, gas pump, vending machine, barber pole, pedal car, payphone, motorcycle, advertising clock, or any other piece of Americana that wasnt in decent shape would have to be trashed. Why keep if you cant restore?

Now they are a problem with collectors. And as time goes on and these repros "naturally" age (as opposed to the sped up aging in Argentina)they will be harder and harder to detect. People will lose the catalogs and other current literature on these items.
It's a double edged sword that is unfortunately reality.

BBQ Chicken. I agree with you to the extent that repros are bad if passed off as original. I redid a Benet pump in Texaco Silver and put my original Texaco Ethyl globe on it. But, try to find an original decal that was used to brand the pump. First of all, it would be so old it wouldn't work. Secondly, I wouldn't want to use it and would rather save it as an artifact. I am gong to have a decal made that is magnetic. It will look ok, but not original. I am even Ok with reproduction globes, as long as it is known or they are marked. I would love to do a Signal pump, but can't afford an original globe. I respect your opinion and your right to state it, but I think you are being "too pure."

You just can't have it both ways....... you can't. There is no way to make it ok one way, and wrong another way. No double standard. Whether the guy lied to you before you bought it, whether you got it on a website, it was dated, bought it as a repro, no matter how you want to slice it or hold it up to the light, it's still a reproduction. "Limited edition", dated, all that, who cares, it doesn't change it or catergorize it to be alright now. It's still fake and not real or acceptable. It's wrong from it's conception and production. They have and hold no value, except for the new guy or impulse buyer that has no idea about the situation that he/she is getting into. They aren't worth the material they are printed on. An analogy would be if you went to an opera or a fine show and had really good seats, and in strolls this loud, late arriving, audience member with a horrible cold; sits down, gets out some crinkly bag of cough drops, hankerchiefs, starts coughing, sneezing, blowing his nose, eating, slurping on a drink, talking to the people around him , just a total pain in the rear. A distraction - a MAJOR troublesome distraction. You payed your good hard earned money to a show that may never come to your home town again, and some clown doesn't respect the venue, the actual show itself, or the patrons that have come to se the show. Just garbage. Ruining the whole true pure experience for everyone else. Just a big headache distraction. That's what repros are. And they are like a really good Mexican meal, they don't burn you just once - they burn you three times!.!.!.!.!. when you eat it, when you pay for it, and when you go to get rid of it the next day!!!

No one is asking to have it "both ways." And your opera analogy makes no sense to the discussion. (At least to me) Repros have a valid purpose. Faceplates ona pump are a good example. There are not enough good originals out there to fill the need for restored pumps. There are not enough original globes to fill the need. I prefer and want originals. but, they just are not there or are too $$$. Passing off repros for originals is bad, I think we all agree on that. The Bennet pump I restored had two panels that were shot. i replaced it with new sheet metal. Are you saying that makes it worth less than all original. I think not. What was the option, send it to the dump?? I think not. I agree that all original is the best. But, if you dent your fender and have to replace it with an after market fender, are you telling me your car is worth less?

BBQ-
Sounds like you have your narrow mind made up that repops are totally wrong. I agree with others on the board that they have their place in the hobby. I don't collect them myself but "db" notes that many restorations would be impossible without repops. Most of us in the hobby are already familiar with the repop and fantasy signs produced by the usual nostalgia vendors so there is no real confusion.

The main problem is the undated repops made like the originals to fool collectors or, even worse, the fake dated versions (i.e., "1933" Texaco No Smoking sign, etc). Keep in mind, any legal action in the USA to require dating on reproductions would have no impact on foreign manufacturers. As we know, the foreign repops are evolving into the biggest problem today. Some of the these foreign made porcelain signs have thick porcelain with heavy shelving. If these guys ever get the colors and backs right, we're all in trouble!!

The subject of marked and unmarked reproductions is a serious and emotional thorn to all who collect. That being said, without reproduction items how many "treasures" would still be available for the "masses"? There would be few if any collector cars older than the 1980 models. For any part manufactured after a model year has run, is a reproduction item. May use the same dies, but are reproduction items. It is the same with our hobby, like Dick said, decals are used. That decal is a reproduction item. As long as an item is marked as a reproduction it has a place in our hobby, my opinion. If this idea has no place, then only an extreme few will be able to enjoy our hobby. Museums and high dollar collectors will be the only ones to have money enough to own a true "original" item. If we draw a line against reproductions, then do we draw that same line against restorations? In both cases the "original" has been altered. The purist will always "balk" at anything not original. But how many of us really consider ourselves a "purist"? We enjoy a hobby that has gained momentum by leaps and bounds and prices reflect that. With these rising prices, more of the "shadow" people, those who prey on those that collect will emerge with reproduction items. As prices skyrocket, reproduction items will get better and better. It is the same with other forms of collecting whether it is cars, paintings or antique furniture. We must do what we have been doing, looking out for each other and reporting items as we find them. I get more knowledge when someone questions an original item and those with the knowledge tell us all how we can tell the differences. At times it it is easy to lose sight of what we are trying to do, enjoying our hobby the way we want to. Each of us is different and collect for a hundred( maybe more) different reasons. But whether a collector has one item or 100 warehouses full of items, we all are the same. A collector of "gas and oil items". Hopefully we won't lose sight of that in our discussions. I know I have, on more than one occasion. Just the ramblings of a middle aged man. LOL

Somebody just retracted their bid on one of the genuine Green Streak signs and it's now way back below reserve. I guess this thread may have scared him off??

I FEEL THERE IS A PLACE FOR REPRODUCTIONS IF THEY ARE DATED OR DESIGNATED SOMEWAY THAT THEY ARE REPRODUCTIONS.
BUT PERSONALLY BEING A CAN AND GLOBE COLLECTOR, I AM VERY GLAD THE WE HAVE GUYS LIKE DARRYL AT ROADRELICS, TOM AT TOMZCOLLECTIBLEZ, PABLO AND RAY (HOTCIDR) THAT MAKE A LIVING OR FULL TIME SIGN COLLECTORS ON THIS SITE.THEIR KNOWLEDGE AND HELP CAN AND DOES SAVE US ALOT OF MONEY AND MISERY.
BUT WE HAVE SOME FINE VENDORS HERE THAT SERVE A GREAT NEED FOR THOSE WHO NEED REPRODUCTION FOR ANY REASON.WHO ARE HONEST AND QUICK TO LET US KNOW IF REAL OR NOT.
SO AS MEMBERS HERE WE HAVE THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS.
AND THANKS MOBIL100 FOR LETTING US KNOW ABOUT THIS GUY SELLING REPOPS AND DESCRIBING THEM AS ORIGIONALS.

Ok, then if you say originals are too high$$$, why is that??? And repros are dirt cheap$$$, why is that??? There is your analogy right there. In a nut shell. People have to understand this, and I hope that all of you will listen and think about this; not every person that "collects" is supposed to own a Polly globe..... not everyone that collects is supposed to own a Texaco one piece globe.... not everyone that collects is supposed to own a twin clockface pump....... not everyone is supposed to drive a $65,000 car....... that is not reality(to recall a previous members post). Reality is that not everyone is supposed to have what they want all the time, and if they can't afford it, make some cheap **** to contaminate the rest of what's going on. Simple. Just admire the real beauty and authenticity(THE TRUE POWER) of the originals, and you won't long for these pieces of garbage. There is a power there - and if you really are a true collector and a hunter of this magnificent treasure from an extrememly significant period of time, you know the power that I am speaking of. It has a way, a way of enveloping your soul and transforming you to a different time and place. I know this site is trying to "clean up" a little and stear clear of personal attacks, but to recall a previous members post, where I was referred to as having a "narrow mind" , I sit and wonder if it is not truly the opposite...... I wonder if the expansion and education of some minds is very limited to say the least. But I don't hold anyone accountable, after all we are all animals any way.......

IF I go to an OPERA, MOVIE THEATER or CONCERT I'd have to be SICK !
db

[This message has been edited by Dick Bennett (edited 08-16-2007).]

I totally agree that reproduction pieces have there place in our hobby and 95% of you also agree. There is nothing wrong with selling reproductions but take a look at this guys ebay ad and tell me he's not a crook. That said I have just reported Canyshop to ebay for false advertising and have sent him the following:

First of all I've just reported you to ebay as selliing your reproduction signs and trying to pass them off as old. We, a very large group of collectors, are going to hire a lawyer and you will be stopped from your false advertising.
Now shut up or put up..it's time we did stop this guy.

Your reality, Sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever!
-- Baron Munchausen

Here is a question. What if you sold a $1000 original sign and some guy gives you fake $100 bills... he can go to jail! If you give him $1000 of original $100 bills for a faked unmarked sign you have what?

What if people started making unmarked fake money how long would that last?

"Ok, then if you say originals are too high$$$, why is that??? And repros are dirt cheap$$$, why is that??? There is your analogy right there." Uh, BBQ???, that's not an analogy..... Just becasue someone can't afford an original globe doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to enjoy it. Even if it is not real. That's not a crime. The crime is passing a fake as real. Most art work in homes are copies, not originals. People shouldn't have those??

Do you mean to tell me that you would put a visible pump outside and put an original 15" metal banded Texaco globe on top??? I am not a fan of the total reproduction pumps. Wouldn't buy one, but they seem to sell. Doesn't make them bad. This is my last post on this topic. Enjoy the hunt.

People that can't afford this stuff don't even care about it. They would rather have an air brushed t-shirt, a bag of weed, and a couple weeks down at Myrtle Beach anyway....... maybe go to Wal-Mart or something...... I am not a big player, I'm a landscaper and have worked for the things that I have. I "really" don't have the money to mess with this stuff, but I do. And most people just have other priorities. That's all. I have three original globes outside.

i think in a perfect world not many of us would want reproductions however that will never happen........We now have the problem of dealing with reproductions & the obvious starting point is with the blatant total rip-offs who decieve, defraud & would take every last penny of yours if given the chance....you can't really compare these guys to somebody who is licensed, pays taxes,etc.etc.etc........I know what your saying, a repo is a repo is a repo.......However if they are done in a correct way it only helps the hobby

i bought my first Coca Cola neon clock 20 years ago & it was a repo & i knew it........That single repo neon clock changed my life........I then needed an original & another & another..i went and got another job, worked harder & longer than i ever have just to pay for the extra original signs or clocks s........I felt so bad 10 years later selling this repo clock......

i would never collect a repo today, but i buy & sell many originals & repos to a retaurant chain, however i never sell them any of this "new to defraud stuff" & i do believe there are differences in reproductions...........When i bought mine 10 years earlier, i knew it was a repo & sold it as a repo, however because of that 1st clock i now travel the country doing what i love......

saying " People that can't afford this stuff don't even care about it" is so wrong.......we all have to start somewhere & some people build & some will go to Myrtle Beach with a bag of weed in a air brushed tee-shirt.........

[This message has been edited by roadrelics@aol.com (edited 08-16-2007).]

Well, posting from under the rock we pump part dealers live under (since we are such scum & all), I'd just like to say that Darryl hit the nail right square on the head about as square as you can hit it. I'll give one of probably a thousand examples I COULD give about why there is a place for reproduction items (like, how many '32 Fords would've been at Louisville last week without new parts?). But the best example I can give is this:
About 5 years ago, we received a purchase order for 250 reproduction clockface bowsers from Fuddrucker's restaurants. These are all date-stamped & otherwise obvious reproductions. We always add an ID tag on the back that had our info on it. We fulfilled the order in our alloted 24 month time frame. Since then, I have lost count, but I'd estimate somewhere around 30-40 guys who saw the pumps in Fuddrucker's have called as brand new, never realized there was such a thing as petroliana, customers. Most, if not all have stated a desire to own an original, which of course we obliged placing dozens of original pumps in new collector's garages or gamerooms. Some bought the repro clockfaces like they saw while they were eating those oh so tasty burgers and then later on decided to "trade up" to an original. The point is, MANY, not all, but MANY collectors (whether you think they are true or pure or whatever) enter on the repro level until they get acclimated to the prices that originals command or until they learn the real ropes of finding & buying original stuff.

Look, obviously everyone knows which side of my toast gets buttered, but I truly can appreciate BBQ's passion & commitment where petroliana is concerned. But I would hope that anyone even those radically opposed to my livelihood, could at least see SOME merit in my above real-life account. Heck, the business that I own & operate was spawned simply because my father-in-law wanted his Wayne 60 to have a nozzle rest & fork. That seems like a simple desire, and that's how businesses are started....finding a need & filling it. If there wasn't a massive need for parts, I'd use my degree and go be a Financial Planner.

Anyway, just a guy feeding four kids by selling new & (OLD ) pumps & parts.....



[This message has been edited by Seth Robbins (edited 08-17-2007).]

Just wanted to add, that I am more than willing to be of any assistance that I can be in helping you make a decision to buy or pass. I don't know everything, but I have personally handled close to 10,000 original signs,globes,pumps,cans,etc in the last 10 years (during my auctions) and then obviously I've handled untold amounts of repos.

Info@vics66.com
405.282.5586

[This message has been edited by Seth Robbins (edited 08-17-2007).]

Here is one of those signs for sale on eBay. http://cgi.ebay.com/OLD-SIGNAL-ETHYL-GAS...1QQcmdZViewItem

Repros are immoral....... I think, in my head, my narrow mind, that it is simply just that. Immorality. It goes against the very grain of collecting in the first place. I think repros are immoral. I guess I need some therapy to work through this........

[This message has been edited by BBQ Chicken (edited 08-17-2007).]

Re: "I think repros are immoral. I guess I need some therapy to work through this........"

BINGO!! I agree, you do. After all this commentary one should at least develop an understanding. The world has millions, if not billions, of items and parts that aren't "original". Get over it.

Are WE all not reproductions !!!!!

I have a visible sitting in my garage that I could never restore without repro parts. Can't afford it. Also I could never find an original skin or cylinder for it.

[This message has been edited by MT60544 (edited 08-17-2007).]

As much as I like and admire most all of you it seems you all have WAY too much time on your hands. The question is not just are reproductions ok but what to do with this guy who is selling on ebay claiming his signs are old. He's not just selling with no date on his signs he actually states they are old. My email to him do no good. I wonder if someone can contact the police dept. in his community and discuss this with a detective. Here in California this would be fraud and against the law

Are we taking about the seller from Buenos Aires? Good luck contacting the local authorities there. He keeps his buyers ids secret so we can't contact them and tell them their fakes. The other problem is Ebay has a policy that you cannot interfer with another sellers transaction. It could get you banned if you warn the buyers. I think the best way is to contact the buyers who leave feedback and just ask them if they know if the sign they bought was a repro. Give them the dirt, the link to this forum, let them figure it out, and let them file a claim with Ebay. Seller will get banned, get a new id, and start over again. Very difficult to remedy.

Hey Seth - Not everyone here is against the "parts" supplier. I for one, am very glad you provide the service you do. I'm not a purest and have used reproduction parts several times to finish a pump. If its my pump and I'm doing it in the brand and colors I choose, and the parts satisfy me,I will continue to use your services.

I like the pumps I have done so far, and appreciate those hard to find original parts being reproduced...Not swatting a hornets nest, just giving my 2 cents. At least I'm posting instead of lurking today...just hope I don't get reamed for it!

Kurt

Seth, I would say everyone on this site but a couple agree we need repro parts. We just need to make sure they are dated!
This issue is about non dated repro stuff which are meant to rip someone off!

Lets get back to the topic and not about 1 guys opinion.

Guys . . . guys.

I think we are all kinda missing the point. We are not actually talking about reproductions (well, at least not most of us). Reproductions by definition are marked as such.

What we are really upset about is Counterfeits! Which by definition are unmarked fakes that are being passed off as ORIGINALS.

Marked reproductions are fine. EVERYBODY'S hobbies would be destroyed without quality reproductions.

Counterfeits however, are against the law. Doesn't matter if it's gas pump parts, jeans, purses, purfume, or cash - it's all illegal.

I personally think bitching to e-bay about the thieves selling this junk is the wrong way to go. Maybe we need to see about a lawsuit against e-bay for allowing this doggie-do to be listed/sold. That might get their collective attention and make the policing of this kind of activity more stringent.

'nuf said.

Later . . .

Jim


[This message has been edited by T-way (edited 08-18-2007).]

I read this whole thread with interest. I would have to say T Way has come closest to my way of thinking.
I agree that reproductions are necessary and for the stated reasons - outdoor display, restaurant and rec room "themes", originals are wasted here - and nowhere near as available or affordable. People see these reproductions, and maybe it piques their interest in the original side of the hobby.
One can also use original artwork on reproduction globes, decals, etc., to finish a project pump that would otherwise not be possible for the collector of modest means.

But passing off a reproduction as original in a business transaction is fraud.

Knowingly passing off a reproduction as original, in your house or garage, to your friends, neighbors, visitors, co-workers..., well, that is another thing altogether... but up to that person.

Know anybody that wears a fake Rolex? Why would they do that? Same reason, I would think...

That's not the sort of "hobbyist" we're talking about on this board, I don't think.

But hey - if you are a purist, own nothing but originals, and wouldn't have it any other way, well, that's great too! You're a gatekeeper. Every endeavor need experts and purists.

I would guess that most petro collector fall between the two extremes. I know I do.

Just my opinion.

[This message has been edited by silent chief (edited 08-18-2007).]

Just a few thoughts..

If there was no reproduction parts, complete pumps would be far and few between... and just think where the prices would be at.. most of us could never afford a complete pump if that where the case..

Now I appreciate the fact that you can by aftermarket parts for pumps, but it also holds down the price on originals.. which can be good or bad..depends which end of the deal you are on...

Now I am thinking of a problem that will show up, and I am not slamming the dealers when I say this. How many times are pumps sold to buyers as real and all complete when they may have 1/2 dozen or more repo parts on them?? They parts as far as I know are never marked and it largely gets ignored...

OR
a WAYNE 60 CHANGED to a DUMMY 866
or a TOKHEIM 36B CHANGED to a DUMMY 36B-DP !
IF you don't disclose the change,
ARE YOU NOT COMMITTING FRAUD ?
YOUR SELLING A FAKE !

Exactly..

When youbuy an incomplete National duplex, you may put 6 ot more recast parts on it. What you say when you sell it, is what matters..

In the end its all about honesty & disclosure..

Interesting twist Dodogas. I'm not a car guy, but how does that same question apply to a '32 ford or a '69 camaro. I've heard terms like "all original" or "survivor". Does all original simply imply the motor & trans, body & chassis are all original to each other?? It's definitely food for thought.

I will say, that some if not a majority of repro parts are at least easily discernable from original. I.E. old faces mostly porcelain / new faces screened aluminum, most old castings aren't aluminum, etc. I know that doesn't completely solve the problem since just because I can spot the difference, doesn't mean Joe Blow can.

Also, think about this angle....... our time period, in the previous century(1900's)and the seven and a half years of this century(2000's). From the late 1800's through, say, post world war II, it was a pretty remarkable time period as far as technology, commerce, graphics, and advertisement, design ... that time period is the most applicable to what we are talking about as far as the items of discussion........things we collect ...... Now that time period, 1897-1946, that time period in the scheme of things, meaning the overall time table, ain't squat. What I mean, it's not really that "old" in the scheme of things. But it is to the collectibles that we all collect. Well, pause and jump back to a time period a LONG time ago, Mayans, Aztecs, Egyptians, BC/AD, Jesus/God, Old as popcorn dust farts days, ok....... now what about when a tomb is discovered now, or a piece from back in the pyramid days is discovered??? You don't see all these archeologists running and picking up the phone to call there buddy to put in an order for a repro arm, ear, or leg that was missing from a sculptural form or doll from that tomb find do you??? They aren't repainting all the walls in all these rare caves and tombs where these murals are. You don't take items that are original, from a specific AND SIGNIFICANT time period, and just start "destroying" them or sterilizing them. The big Sphinx pyramid that you always see that is half lion or tiger or whatever and half Egyptian that's in all the pictures(I don't get to Egypt much), you don't see them running out there with crews to put the half of his face back on that has eroded away. It just eroded away, it's gone, that's that, they don't fix it or repair it anymore because THEY CAN'T!!! IF THEY DO, IT WILL RUIN IT !!! IT WON'T BE OLD ANYMORE !!! YOU STRIP IT OF ALL THAT IT IS. DEFACE - deface it's ORIGINAL purpose and existance. They don't repair the pyramids do they? Why??? They could, but they don't! IT is what IT IS. You have to say sometimes, I am lucky to have what I have, even though it's not all there, atleast it's true and original. In the high dollar world of antiques, whether it be rare piece of furniture or a gold fish from King Tut's tomb, you don't touch it, you leave it alone. In essence, you guys that don't think of the stuff we collect as significant, and JUST as significant and valuable as other items from other time periods, need to stop and think about what you are doing and teaching. You guys that support repros and the work being done with repros, are saying, "hey, our items and treasures from OUR significant time period, aren't worth preserving to the truest, purest form that we can preserve them." I think they are.......they are. We won't see that fold in time and it probably won't be for another hundred years, maybe two, or three hundred more years, but I do know this; if somebody that has a brain about value and true worth, HISTORICALLY, as well as monetary, found a pump that was left by one of us two hundred years from now, which pump do you think he would rather find or own???.....some repainted, all new sheet metal pump, with plastic and aluminum parts all over it, fake, wierd fantasy globe, new decals that usually never existed in the first place, OR a totally untouched all original pump that has some parts missing??? Same applies with globes and signs...one lens good,one cracked globe with a rusty body and some wear, or a repro globe dated 2006??? just think about it........ what would we all love to drive up on today, or see leaning behind a barn somewhere? I can't wait to go out and find some perfect condition repro stuff leaning behind a barn this weekend! Yaaaaayyyyyyy !!!

[This message has been edited by BBQ Chicken (edited 08-18-2007).]

WOW Just lurking on this one. Ted

------------------
Ted Pam & Ethyl Roach
Lodi CA.
Looking for Signal, Hancock, Mohawk, Douglas, Gilmore and Richfield

.......lets go even farther back to the dinosaur age, they were wiped out with tremendous force & many of the bones were lost, destroyed & just plain turned to popcorn fart dust, ok..........when they restore these oldest & rarest items they do use repo bones, they just don't put up a half a dinasour,......


they have restored the mona lisa & many other great paintings, if they hadn't there would be a pile of popcorn fart dust at the bottom of the frame....If you go to the Louve museum in Paris you'll notice they have a full restoration room & i am sure most of the top museums in the world have the same...all these people do is retore all day long....
we are getting away from the point here & should be foucusing on people that are commiting this fraud.........thats where we need to foucus.......

------------------
Roadrelics.com

Big difference between a national treasure, and something a private party owns outright!

In the country where I live We can do what we like with what we own. I am thinking in the USA it is the same, if so be thankful...

Myself I enjoy a nicely built old bike where they started with a motor and some rusty frame and fork pieces. I have a 14 Harley twin I plan on doing this too, Sorry I dont have 45K to go buy one.. just life!!

Sounds like some on here would rather see an early engine on diplay alone, than a restored vehicle...

Somehow I cant see too many on here that would pay 3-7K for a rare pump and then take a chance that the rest of your life you never see it finished!!.. not likely in my mind..

half a dinosaur...... sweet !!!

Are you a chicken modifier???

Some of us prefer originals...

no i'm not a chicken modifier, i'd rather eat dodo birds for lunch..............

i also would prefer an original over a repo.....

Ebay needs to be Held accountable for allowing the FRAUD to continue. UNTILL THEY ARE, THE FRAUD WILL CONTINUE. It's too easy for them to say the seller is Accountable for items they list.
There NEEDS to be a BETTER way of reporting KNOWN & SUSPECT ITEMS.

WE use to be able to contact a bidder about repo/fraud. Ebay STOPPED THAT.

WE use to be able to retract a bid WITH OUR REASON. Ebay mandates you use 1 of 3 reasons; #1 entered wrong amount,
#2 seller changed description
#3 cannot contact seller.
B.S.
[I want to retract my bid because it's a suspected repo].

I'm gonna BBQ me some dead chicken in about an hour, and I tell you what, you boys don't know what you are gonna be missin' !!!!!! My dream is to open a restaurant one day that just sells barbecued chicken...... and of course homemade sides....... 'cause I makes it real good like! ....maybe someday...... and the inside is gonna be decorated with a bunch of weird parts of old stuff that you cant tell what it is. You guys are too much!!! Eat chicken, Raise hell!!!....... See all you old bastards at Dixie Gas! Dave

BBQ Chicken.....I hope you're not going to run the restaurant like the Soup Nazi!! LOL

OK...I lied...another statement. BBQ says that whe you find something from King Tut's tomb you leave it alone. Actually, after the national tour of the original artifacts they "REPRODUCED" most of the relics, including his chariot and sent them out on another national tour as the origianls were returned to Egypt. The national tour of the "repros" sells out where ever it goes.

Getting ebay to change is a goodidea, but will be difficult, but still worthy notion. We need to enlist all of the diferent antique associations to push them and to perhaps get your congressman to push for legislation to get ebay to improve its service. They will hide behind their "venue only" shield. Also, ebay is not totally to blame. Difficult for them to authenticate every item that goes on ebay. Heck, I was at a car show and saw some reproductions sold as real items. I informed the show owner and was told to "f*** off." We also need to push congress to work on fraud laws on reproductions as imports and should require them to be clearly marked. Someone clever will come along and find a way around it.

As far as pump parts, keep making them. If trim pieces and face plates, etc are needed to restore them. Keep making them.

But, let's keep doing our part to stop the guys who are selling repros as originals.

Here is an interesting perspective on this very topic from the public television show "Antiques Roadshow":

They say that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. And if that's true, it could be said the road connecting reproductions and fakes is usually paved with bad ones — or at least intentions worth keeping an eye on.

ANTIQUES ROADSHOW appraiser J. Michael Flanigan, an antiques dealer in Baltimore, Maryland, defines a fake as "any object made or sold with the intent to deceive a buyer." A reproduction is a copy of an original, advertised as a copy. And the phrase, "intent to deceive" is the key difference between that and an object that is flat-out fake.

To make his point, Michael plucked an analogy from Hollywood, a place alleged to be teaming with illusion, if not deception. "If I cloned Harrison Ford and told everyone that he was made up to look like the famous actor, that would be a darn good reproduction," Michael explains. "But if I implied that my clone actually was the real Harrison Ford, and he tried to use that deception to land a plum role in a new movie, well, in our business, we'd call him a fake." Michael sums up: "A fake isn't necessarily in the making. It's in the representation."

A famous example in the real world involved a chair that is currently held by the Winterthur Museum in Delaware. A collector bought the chair for a hefty sum as an original Windsor chair from early American history. Well, expert eyes cast doubts on its authenticity, and the buyer took the seller of the chair to court. Linda Eaton, curator of textiles at the Winterthur Museum, says that the piece was made in the shops of Wallace Nutting, a promoter of Colonial furniture in the early 20th century who oversaw the construction of fine reproductions sold as reproductions. Sometime after the piece was made, someone artificially aged the piece, erased Nutting's mark, and made a few more alterations while traveling that road from the land of reproductions to the home of the fake. "Nutting didn't intend the object as a fake when it was made," Michael says. "But somebody else did later."

The seller in the case pleaded ignorance and was found not guilty, in large part because experts disagreed on the chair's authenticity. The owner donated the unwanted chair to Winterthur, which displayed the chair in its Furniture Study Gallery next to the same unadulterated Nutting chair.

Whoever tried to turn back the clock on that Windsor reproduction was engaged in a new trend — that of improvising fakes rather than making them from scratch. "Now you see legitimate pieces that have been 'tarted up,'" Michael says. A leg of a fine chair will get subtly re-cut to make it finer, or an inlay might be dropped to improve a piece's class. "It's a shortcut to fakery," Michael says. "And time saved is money earned in that shady business."

While fakes are the devil every buyer wants to avoid in the antiques and collectibles business, many consumers face a greater danger: object illiteracy. "One guy used to say, 'There's more deception by ignorance than by intention,' Michael recalls. He's referring to sellers who make assertions about a piece ("It looks like a Renaissance table to me ... ") without truly knowing what the object actually is.

The solution, according to Michael: "You just have to stay away from sellers who make claims they can't back up. If they won't guarantee a piece, you should go down the street and find someone who will."

The end of Chad's post says a mouthful...buying the item from someone who will guarantee it. See, an overzealousness to get a 'steal of a deal' has played at least a minor role in the rise of this game of deception. We are all trying to find that item that is worth $1000 priced at $250. For example, I found a Firestone Tires flange sign on ebay one time that was seemingly only bid to about 1/3 of it's value. I quickly realized that it was listed in an odd category and I theorized taht I had uncovered a 'hidden gem' that none of the rest of you had noticed. I ended up paying $490 for a sign that is worth $1200-$1500 if real, only to realize upon picking it up that it was in fact a nice, $100 reproduction that had been shot a few times with a pellet gun. Had I not been so quick to pull the trigger and really thought things thru, I would've realized that there are like 30 million US ebayers and that the chances of finding an item that EVERYBODY had let slip thru cracks were fairly slim. Of course, every once in awhile, you'll see something with a BUY IT NOW that has been on only 30 minutes and you buy it cheap, but I digress. What I'm trying to say, is that our own inability to level or reason with ourselves when presented with a "too good to be true" scenario is partly fueling the business of these guys.

Look, we are living in the information age. People are completely aware that finding the value of their item is simply a mouse-click away. The days of going out and finding a Minuteman sign in about #8.5 conditin for $500 are pretty much over. Sure, there will be isolated instances, but it will be like winning the Powerball: we'll hear about it, but it won't happen to us. Ebay has created an artificial feeling of the 'hunt', but it's not like that at all. Chances are, when you see a sign on there, 1000 others saw it before you did and didn't bid. Why didn't they bid?? I'm not advocating becoming sheep that follow each other around and can't think for themselves, but you have to realize that if it seems too good too be true, then there's a 95% chance that it is.

My short-term solution is to buy things from guys that you know personally and that will give you a money-back guarantee. The problems with that are two-fold and should be addressed though. A)We don't like to buy things from guys we know will guarantee them because generally, they are fully aware of what they have and are asking retail. B)Buyers can use the "original or your money back" guarantee to soothe Buyer's Remorse.

My solution for A) would be to simply say, if you can't afford to buy the guaranteed piece, wait till you can. I'd rather save up a $1000 to buy a real sign, then spend $500 on a $18 fake. My solution for B) would be for sellers to have their guarantee in writing with parameters for the refund. I mean, how do you go about proving that something you bought is fake?? If I were crafting a written guarantee, I would simply state that if the buyer believes the sign to be fake, then buyer & seller would send the piece to 3 pre-agreed upon dealers, collectors, experts, authorities, etc. I'd pick one, the buyer would pick one, and then we would mutually agree on one. Then, if 2 of the 3 voted fake then a refund would be given. If 2 of the 3 voted real, no refund would be given.

I realize there are probably many flaws in that, but it's what I'm going to try and do from now on with my auction. I generally will say, money back on an item if it turns out to be fake. I end up refunding a low-end piece or two that I overlooked or was outright fooled by. Most times, it's so obvious that I feel stupid and hand them money. Sometimes though, I get a guy who went overboard and paid too much for something obviously original who wants to invoke the guarantee by saying, "my buddies told me it was fake".

Boy....5 pages of controversy and no one has called anyone a big fat poopy head....

I haven't posted yet...LOL

I haven't been around my computer for awhile, and it literally took me an hour to read this one thread.

BBQ is in a pi55ing contest from what I can tell.

They DO have thier place....

When I 10 years old (28 now) and my father and I first started collecting, it wasn't to long before he got his first original globe. Nothing fancy, just a Sinclair Dino capco body. But for your first globe I'm sure that my dad was just as thrilled as I was, if not more. Of course, I wanted one just as bad as he did, if not worse. And I did get my first globe. A reproduction Sky Chief globe. At this point of my life at the age 10 or 11, if I had a choice of a $1000 or that REPRO globe, I would have took the globe. A $59.00 globe made me the happiest kid in the bussiness.

Point being, whether that globe was a $100 or $1000 globe, I enjoyed it more than any other thing that I had bought prevoius to that. I still have Repro globe that I display, and I'm perfectly content with that.

I hate to say it, but we are all responsible for these signs being made. If some of us, some of our fathers and grandfathers didn't destroy these items in the past, we wouldn't be making reproductions. As we all know, things are more sought after than others, and those things are usually the things getting reproed. I'm sure we have all at one time have been taken by someone, but how many $15-$50 gas pumps, signs, cans have we bought. Making fake signs is obviously how some people make a living and I have to respect that. As long as they are not trying to fool people, they are working hard at making someone else happy.

WOW! All I was doing was giving you guys a heads up. 5 pages of feed back WOW!

[This message has been edited by mobil100 (edited 08-19-2007).]

One of the best stories was years ago John Denver turned up at a John Denver look- alike contest, and LOST. They refused to believe who he was until he proved it. He got a big kick out of it all pretty good natured guy.

Well, enough is enough, I think it's time I said whats been on my mind watching all this unfold. Joe Yokum is a Big Fat Poopy Head LOL! You do build one helluva a clock mech though!

John Denver Rules !!!!! I love some John Denver. "Grandmas feather bed"!!!!!! We always would play, and sing that, and sing that, when we went to the Blue Ridge Mountains on family vacations. "Leaving on a Jet Plane", "Rocky Mountain High", "Sunshine on my shoulders", all those.......... Awesome!

Aw..c'mon ....my head isn't THAT big.
Is it???.....and that is dirt around it not poop! SO THERE!!!

Hey BBQ..... I am suuming you only went to his concerts and don't listen to him on tape or CD. Reason I ask is that a CD would be a "reproduction" of his singing and we know how you feel about reproductions. I hope you have a good sense of humor as I am just kidding. (LOL)

Alex

[This message has been edited by Alex (edited 08-20-2007).]

Just a thought...the words we read on this post are merely 'reproductions', since the original pixels used to create the post are gone once we post to the board...does that make our posts INVALID?

------------------
Robert Usrey

Only IF you EDIT YOUR REPLY ! LOL
db

Ok..the mother of all questions:
BBQ...do you still like to practice reproduction???

If it were not fer reproduction.. we wood have no BBQ Chickens!!!!

Lesson for the night: Reproductions are fakes from the start. They are phony and immoral. Repros are intended to decieve no matter who sells them. They are the root of all evil and the fraud that exists today in sign collecting. Reproductions have no place in the real world, they only fit into a "man made" institution driven by greed and boastfulness. They suck, they are horrible, and I wish all repros to be damned to eternal damnation! DEATH to REPROS !!!! BBQ CHicKen has SQUAWKED a curse upon REPROS, and those who deal and/or use them!!! Beware...........

You're drinking the wrong sauce.

I gotta go with you on that Dick! LOL

There are several birds out there that are flying with repro parts...you know the ones that save US and our cousins across the pond.
Now how can that be wrong?
There are countless mechanical devices that are in the Smithsonian that have repro parts,
and they are to PRESERVE HISTORY .
I am glad those old birds are flying, and I am glad I am NOT a member of the Nazi Party, I am glad I do not worship an EMPEROR .
I LOVE the sound of a 12 cylinder Rolls Royce engine...or a big honking radial as it flies by...it gives me chills!!!!!

It is pointless to waste effort, logic, and intellect to discuss a topic with a 'true believer'. It saddens me though, that a fellow member of our great hobby chooses to take such a view of the facts.

------------------
Robert Usrey

I still say that if everyone would turn this guy in every time he puts a sign on, maybe Ebay would get it!!!! Roadrelics told how in a previous post.

What BBQ chicken is saying is that repops are items not found in nature.

There is one subject no one talks about but I'm sure a lot of us think of, GREED. This is what has driving of lot of "hobby" for years now. I can remember people bring gas pumps to my house just to get rid of them. I had them bring cans, bottles, signs,you name it all because they heard I liked to collect that "stuff" and they wanted to get rid of it. I'm sure a lot of the guys here had to same happen to them. Early on when I started with this hobby I promised myself I only collect what I could afford/wanted not to get carried away, just a nice bunch of stuff. I never registered on Ebay, never will,never bought off it. This was about 1984 I got into the hobby. I thought I was an early bird in this hobby but soon found out I was prehaps 30 yrs late. Was impossible to find nice stuff from the 40s back in this neck of the woods.Well I joined Check the Oil and that bunch of guys and got burned good by one of guru's allready estasbilished in can collecting. I didn't quit but became very wary and held the wallet a little tighter after that. My little collection grew and things were easy to get, paid $5 for a 6foot Sinclair sign, 2 for the restroom sign with it. Things were going great and then we were discovered by the antique dealers, up until then there was no petro stuff in their joints. Prices started up, they Ebay started and real greed set in. With all the new places to find this stuff and new found availability it all started the big climb up. Some wilrecall this progress, I call it greed. I have watched it all over the years like a lot of you have and this is not a hobby anymore, it's a business which has it's place now in the hobby. The signs and globes that were dirt cheap now are only for the high dollar guys and the rest settle for low end stuff and repros and we do need them. Just watch out for the high buck items boys, GREED could be connected.I'm still satisfied to pick my stuff out of the wild and don't intend to ever sell it but have a real good son who has picked up the fever and some day he'll get it all. You know if the extreme prices that have reached into our hobby were not met just maybe they would come down. Who knows? I didn't post this to start a conflict, just an old vets observation.

Terry,
I hear you, but "greed" is not the issue. In our free society and our hobby it's simply called "supply & demand". Why label it greed just because prices have gone so high? It can't be greed for the guy who is actually paying the high prices. Prices will continue higher, especially for the rarest pieces, until there are no buyers left willing to pay the price. All free markets function in this manner. Brush up on Econ 101 and take emotion out of the equation.

My 2 cents.

Terry, all of us at one point in time has HAD to think along the lines of what you're saying. I know what you mean. I am into antique Fords cars and the Mustangs too, and look what has happened to all of that market. Scottsdale in January educated the whole world on collector cars. The days of finding an original low mileage Shelby and buying it cheap are long gone and will never return.

I guess the flip side of the Internet has made it harder for the buyers because everybody is just to well educated on the petroliana, etc. One trend happening in the Mopar sector is that they have peaked (the Hemis) and are now dropping in value. Still stupid prices but dropping. Maybe we'll see the same thing in Petroliana in the next few years. Heck, look at what some of the Musgo globes, Wayne Roman column pumps, etc. are doing the market looks to me like it is tanking on the bigger dollar items..........

Some interesting points of view. Prices have gone up partly because because the supply of original items is finite. That is the reason there are so many reproductions being passed as originals. Demand will tip in the opposite direction when the "Baby Boomers" start dropping. This hobby is still dominated by that age group. Part of this is because they have the money that younger collectors for the most part don't have. A larger reason is because anyone over the age of say 35-40 can remember the service/filling station as it was. It is a way to reconnect with "bygone" days. I know I still smile when I see an old commercial or magazine ad. Remember the one in the late 60's where the kids cruzin' have to decide to spend money on gas or soft drinks at the drive-in so they buy .35 or .50 worth of gas? Enough to cruz for hours. Greed may be a factor in any hobby, but greed doesn't drive prices, the consumer drives pricing along with scarcity of the item. Just my .02 worth, LOL.

BBQ Chicken's comments represent such an extreme opinion that its difficult for me to determine whether his post is a hoax or not, particularly your statement that reproductions are "are phony and immoral".

If you are talking about unmarked fakes that are deliberatly meant to deceive than I can understand your way of thinking.

If however, you are broadly definining all reproductions as inherently "bad" than I just don't understand your logic.

I'm presently renovating a home and we plan to replace the existing fixtures with period authentic lighting. Given the fact that original antique fixtures are extremely expensive, rarely available and in many cases are not up to current code requirements, your logic implies that the manufacturer of these reproductions is immoral.

I've restored vehicles that I've owned which NEVER could have been completed without the use of reproduction parts.

Specific to this hobby, most of us have no no other alternative but to use reproduction parts in the restoration of our gas pumps. Without these parts our pumps would be skeletons.

I understand the reaction to reproductions that are meant to deceive, but honestly I'd be just as happy having a Polly Gas neon sign in my home as much as having an original provided it was historically accurate and was purchased with full knowledge that it was a reproduction, not an original.

When repos are outlawed..
..only Outlaws will have repos...

had to say it..

Best thing you can do is EDUCATE yourself.. best protection.. I am sure lots of folk on here have been stung... and that may partly explain their thoughts..

Hey Guys,Let's remember what the original topic of this post is.I just received a call
from a friend in Georgia. He has been collecting for probably fifteen years or more. He doesn't go to many shows but does buy things off Ebay.Well guess what he just bought off Ebay??? A Green Streak and a Smitholene pump plate from GUESS WHO??
WHOLESALECANDYSHOP!!

He wanted my opinion on a couple of pump plates he had bought off Ebay.He told me what they were and I asked if he bought them from the guy in Argentina.Yes!I asked how he paid for them and he said PayPal but with his checking account. Well,you know the rest.

I told him that he really should report this to Ebay. He said "I guess I should
leave negative feedback,but if I do,He'll leave me negative feedback!"I said yes but people read negative feedbacks and see the real story. He was talking about the guy's positive feedback. I said most people that buy these signs probably don't know any different.

We all need to report this guy to Ebay!

I asked him(already knew the answer)if he ever got on Old Gas? Told him he would have known about this guy and how he could gain valuable knowledge from this sight. He got on here while we were talking. I hope if he reads this he will be willing to register and post so as to let us all know if anything comes from it.

Pat

chicken man... i see and share your passion. repros blow. however... saying that... IF marked clearly... no problem. its when its represented as real... then i got a problem... real big problem. to all of those that shot the chicken man down... wait till you get burned ONCE. might change yer' tune. just like ALL lawyers suck.... until you need one !!!. have a nice day.

I really fill for all you sign collectors. I think the peak of the signs are right around the corner thanks to scum thats selling the Ebay repos. I for one and I'm sure many others will not buy a sign because of these going around. They can hit them with hammers,Date them,bury them in the mudd and Rust stain them and make them look just like the ones on your wall.Those who knew the late Glen Tompson might remember the incident at Iowa Gas many Years ago when he sold a sign and then the guy wanted his money back and was made to give the money back because nobody knew if the sign was a repo or original. This will be the new trend which also scares away new collectors.If this guy keeps on selling these repos and I'm sure theres many others doing the same, all the real signs are not going to be worth much more then the repos only because nobody will beable to tell the difference. I agree with DOWN WITH THE REPO SIGNS. I Restore pumps and use Decals only. If some one wanted to use a pocelian sign YEARS AGO to restore a pump or what ever then they should have shoped for an original instead of people making repo signs.We dont need repo signs to finish our restorations when we have plenty of originals out there.Can you imagine what the real signs would be worth if there were never and Repos ever made?????Its to bad this guy dosnt live here in the US,I dont think he would survive long in this hobby or I guess with todays prices its more like a busness now?????????

Drgaspump, I think we all would like the unmarked reproduction items to go away. Marked reproductions have a place in our hobby as well as all collecting. As for prices going down on original items, never happen! Furniture is reproduced every day, but the price of an American Highboy hasn't dropped. Neither has the prices on original vintage and antique rolltop desks, plus thousands of different furniture types. Original paintings still demand top dollar and paintings are the most reproduced items out there. You say you use decals, a reproduced item. So reproductions are part of your collecting. Lets all get on the same page (if possible) and complain about unmarked reproductions of all types. Maybe if we get a loud enough voice someone will pay attention and do something to stop the fraud.

Have they stopped the flow of Cocaine into the country...Have they stopped the meth labs....have they stopped child molestation,
Have they stopped murder??????
What? is every peice that is original going to have to be certified by a Governmental Board? All you can do is Protect yourself with information. There will always be fakes and crooks that sell them.

As a new collector, I totally agree with Drgaspump that new collectors will be scared off. I refuse to try to buy anything valuable enough to fake. I'm limiting myself to large common pieces until I can learn how to spot a fake. After hearing stories about people successfully passing fakes at the big Iowa show where there are tons of experts, I'm not sure if I ever will learn well enough to buy something valuable.

Is there a good web reference on how to spot fakes? It seems to me that there should also be a public database of fakes somewhere. I know there is a ton of information on this site, but it isn't organized in a way that folks can easily use it as a reference.

hi and welcome... a public database of fakes would probably be overwhelmed with the amount of garbage (repro) thats out there in petro alone. this site has the "known unmarked reproductions" forum but it rarely gets any posts. i don't have a real clear cut answer for you but if you post a pic of a sign, can, whatever of something you feel is questionable, the people on this site just might be able to help you. BUT also be aware that long time collectors have also been burned by the repro **** . double edged sword. tread lightly.

tagree0
Have you tried the SEARCH link at the top of all pages ?
db

[This message has been edited by Dick Bennett (edited 09-05-2007).]

search for what.... REPRO ????

Tagree, despite what you read here, as a new collector there's no need to be overly paranoid about fakes. Just buy from reputable sources. Aumann Auctions and Mathews Auctions will stand behind what they sell. There's good deals to be had, especially on common items. Read the magazines for the hobby and patronize their advertisers. If in doubt on Ebay, ask around here and ask the seller if they will guarantee authenticity. My $.02.

VJ

I know a ton of info is on this site, but a person really needs to wade through everything to be safe. That is months or years of studying before you are really safe. I'm willing to do the work, but I think that will scare off a ton of new collectors just getting into the hobby--people who could really add to the hobby. I think a simple guide to spotting fakes (grommets, fonts, etc.) would educate old and new collectors to keep them from getting easily burned. However, it would also educate the guys making fakes to make better ones.

The reason I worry is that I saw several items on eBay that I liked (and even bid on a few) before I found this site. Then I found out they were fakes. I feel like I got burned even though I didn't actually spend any money on the fakes. It was an eye opener for sure.

The "search" feature works ok, but you have to wade through alot of stuff before you can find what you need.

It's like anything else. If you don't know about something, you have to invest the time and effort to research and learn. That's why it takes four years to go to college, takes 12 years to become a doctor. If you jump without looking, you are apt to get hurt. When I started collecting Texaco I had to learn all of the different styles of globes, fat t's, skinny t's, black outlined t's etc. Things that were made before 1940, things made after 1930. You get the drift. When I restored my Texaco Ethyl pump, I needed to find the right decal as there were a couple of varieties, etc.
Part of the fun of collecting is learning about the items. And, unfortunately, finding out what are fakes and what are not. I bought a Texaco doorstop that I thought was legit, found out two months later they were fantasy items. Not even reproductions, items that were just made up. Go look on ebay for Texaco marble bags and Scotty Terrier pinbacks. They are fantasy pieces. Some things we learn the easy way and some the hard way.