I have always enjoyed these auctions and great service but WOW!!
I guess we all knew the merger would bring changes.
Matthews auction Iowa gas 2013.... 15% buyers premium discounted to 10% for cash or Check.
Matthews/Morphy auction Peotone 2014.... 20% buyers premium with a 2% discount for cash or check.
8% increase for cash or check is going change my auction practices.
Well IMO it's going to cost us more to Enjoy the auctions, that's for sure.
I guess I always thought with petroleum collectables going for more and more, causing the buyers premium to be much higher $$$$$ plus add the sellers premium, you would think this would control overhead costs easily.
Again just my opinion but we already have been paying you more each years in buyers premiums as prices climb...
OUCH!
It will never happen, but the thought process for consignors now should be I might actually put more dollars in my pocket selling my collection privately. Taking into account you owned something for 10-20 years and the auction company profits more than you do when it's sold. Just my opinion.
Bought several fairly high dollar items at Dan's auctions over the past 3 years. 10% I lived with, 18% probably not. I'll save my cash for the shows.
Thanks Mike and you are totally correct. Dan has gone over to the Dark Side and is screwing us in the process. Shame on you Dan and Morphy. This really takes the fun out for the "normal guy" who already has to bid against the high rollers. We are already paying inflated prices at the Matthews Auctions but this puts a whole new kick in our *****. I hope we do see the auctions decrease in popularity and we might see some killer deals through other avenues.
Ray
there going to shoot there self in the foot..
As the buyer's we control the money...hurt the greedy in the pocket book and they will change their tone.
I already didn't like the extra cost involved with auction's.
This just guarantees that I won't buy anything from them.
I'm not in the big time sign buying game like many here. But this strikes me as messed up. Did the cost of running an auction suddenly go up?? I seriously doubt it!!
And just a little thought, buyer premiums should be proportional to the selling price. Starting at 15% or so and going down as the price of the piece goes up. It doesn't cost any more to auction a 10K sign as it does a 1K sign. Yet the 10K buyer pays 10 times the price as the 1K buyer. Just doesn't make sense to me but I'm sure I'm just not as smart as some!
We had this same discussion on this site many times. Last one was when it went from 10% to 15%. Here is my thought... Adjust your buying price for the increase in commission or don't bid on his auctions. No one likes increases plain and simple! You don't like it then don't buy or reduce your amount you were going to.
I don't understand why we even had stupid posts like this! Log off the site and walk away for a few days.
I don't understand why this site thinks it needs to bash Dan every chance it can. He is a very knowledgeable, well respected guy in this hobby. He has joined a very reputable auction company to draw a bigger crowd and try to grow this hobby.
I think some of the people forget Dan Matthews is running a business… In business you are there to make a profit. !! Tom
I agree with Jarvis and dundign on this dan is a stand up guy and when I had a globe get broke in shipping he took care of it immediately. You also have to think dan is merging with another company and they may have already set the 20% commission on there auctions. Dan May have not had a say in it. In the end if you don't like it don't bid maybe I will get something cheaper.
Sorry Jarvis but if you don't like the thread, just ignore it!!
Maybe you have more disposable money than we do but 8% is a big increase for people who spend thousands at these Auctions and if we don't say anything, it will get worse.
Looking at what I spent at Iowa's auction last year, I would of come home with a few less signs and I don't have to Like that.
As for Dan, he's a great guy. I think they run a great auction and always provide great service but again as I explained above 8 % is a big hit when you spend good money at these auctions.
This was a thread about the increase in fees not to bash Dan
In the end if you don't like it don't bid maybe I will get something cheaper.
I don't believe anyone has any issues with Dan or his abilities to conduct a great auction, but no one seems to be thinking about the consigner!
Higher buyers commission WILL result in personal adjustments on bid amounts and this translates directly into lower prices received by the consigner.
As an online buyer, when I buy at an auction with a buyers premium, I have a card made out that tells me just what my actual bid is. That way, I don't get caught in the moment and forget what I'm really paying! Higher buyers premium will be causing me to further adjust my bids to cover this additional cost and translate into less monies received by the consigner.
I don't know where all of this will take us, as a hobby, but I don't like it!
Mike, I don't post nothing like I used to and do pass any many posts but this post is nothing but a bunch of complaining that will get no where.
You don't like the increase call Dan himself! Call Dan morphy and complain. Nothing is going to happen complaining on this website!
Matthews Auction has made themselves into the premium auction house for gas and oil stuff. No one can argue that Matthews has auctioned some great stuff, and I don't mind having pay to play to add some great things to my collection (10% is fair).
It seems now because of their success the collector is the one who has to pay (and the collectors are the ones that have in part facilitated their success with consignments and purchases).
Just my opinion.
Why do we need to "grow this hobby"? As every (yes, a generalization)sport, hobby, etc. has attracted more of the "outside world", its enjoyability factor has been diluted and the costs of participation have skyrocketed. We already see an influx of people in it solely for the money and look at the effect that is having even upon our relatively small corner of the world. Many people, myself included, would never have been able to build a collection of any size in a climate of today's constantly escalating prices and fees. Add quite expensive third party shipping to these costs and there you go again. How about local and state sales taxes??? Suddenly we are knocking on 40%. Not a stupid nor insignificant concern from my viewpoint.
That is why eBay is still the #1 choice for selling . Ebay fees are still by far the most reasonable worldwide.
It's sad when an established auction changes in this manner. The excuse of course is the "value added" by the auction house advertising and handling of merchandise.
It will affect some bidding no doubt, but for those whose deep pockets are like running water they won't care. The higher value pieces will bring more money and the lower value pieces will result in the consignor potentially making less money as those who bid will stop sooner.
As a picker I don't attend many sign auctions because of buyers premiums, or when I do I simply bid taking that premium into consideration. More collectors will be doing the same at this auction house now.
this is the first I have heard of the increase... and I'm not too happy to hear it either. I would challenge everyone to at least mention some of this dissatisfaction to Dan himself at Columbia. and I wouldn't mind hearing from Dan as well, sometimes an explanation will help ease the pain.
i always understood the buyers premium for online & absentee bids... if you cant be there, you should have to pay for the service of off-site bidding. But an 18% premium on cash purchases on-site? That is higher than most the other auction companies, including huge ones like RM, etc.
Mike, I don't post nothing like I used to and do pass any many posts but this post is nothing but a bunch of complaining that will get no where.
You don't like the increase call Dan himself! Call Dan morphy and complain. Nothing is going to happen complaining on this website!
I'm about as tired of hearing you don't post much anymore Jarvis, as you are thinking we're bashing Dan. You over blow things every time you post. No body her is bashing Dan M. There's nothing wrong with this thread, that's what oldgas is for. You don't like it, move on! Do you have stock with Dan ? This is just like the cable company. You don't see Social Security checks going up 8% a year.
I would be surprised if Dan had a say in the 20% buyers premium. I may be wrong but the way I understand it, Dan is working for Morphys? I also thought the auction company is the one that set the percentages. I do not seeing Dan as doing the rate increase. He had a good set up going, I do not see why he would change it that much if he was in control of it. I myself try to figure what my top amount for an item is, figure the premiums and tax and whatever else and adjust my bid from there.
I don't really blame Dan himself but he has been our friend for some time now. He has collected 10% from consignor and 10% from buyer which translates to 20%...some pretty good money. Now I agree with Jarvis, Dan is probably caught in the middle and Morphy is the one making this change but it does trickle down to us who now have to pay 8% ADDITIONAL to buy a sign. I wish I could charge 20% commission on my insurance sales. I hope they take a re-look on this. I haven't seen what they are going to do to the poor phone or internet bidder however as one person put it that makes sense if you can't be there and it is an extra service
Ray
I agree. I didn't buy a lot on the auctions before and when I did I have calculated my bids lower to cover the fees. These new fees are crazy.
Dan is a good person, but he has to take some ownership/blame for this as well. He entered an agreement with Morphy... and he is responsible for that agreement. I just really feel sorry for the cosigners... as they will be hit the hardest. I can change my bidding to adapt to the increase, but any way you look at it - it impacts the cosigners the most.
So I wonder what proxibid users premium will be... most likely 23-25%, ouch!
Some auctions charge 10% buyers fees and they charge 30%ish seller fees that equates to 40%ish.
I've seen that BJ auction does 20% buyer and a lesser 20% sellers fee.
Most of the time when the buyers fees are higher the sellers fees are lower and vise versa so that the auction house ends up with around 40% of the total sale.
The more "mom and pop" auction houses usually end up at 30%.
Eslay totals end up at around 30%, including payfiend fees, for the seller but none for the buyer.
It all just depends on what the auction houses' policies are and more of them are going for the bigger profit for them.
Eslay has introduced a new concept for auctions in that there are no fees for the buyer and all relies on the seller paying them, and many have gotten very comfortable with that system.
Which method is best for you, as a buyer, is up to you to do your due diligence and figure it out before bidding, unless you don't care and have a lot of disposable income.
Well, I'm bummed out. I thought this was a good thread until I found out that we aren't supposed to post anything that doesn't give us a warm fuzzy feeling. This is informative as the subject affects everybody’s pocket book and may affect a beloved auction. It seems to me, if you don't like a particular subject/thread, don't join it.
As prices in the hobby go up, so does the take for the auction house even when the premiums remain the same. The only reason premiums should rise is if the auction house itself is offering more to its customers (buyers and sellers). It's going to be interesting to see if that materializes.
I'm with K W on this; the sellers (consigners) are going to have the biggest impact. The bidders have to make the choice of how high they want to bid taking into account the extra premium and will probably pay the same in the end (bid + premium), but the consigners are going to see 10% less on their sale. I didn't see on their site if the seller’s premium has gone up, but as it stands now, the auction house gets 30% of every item sold. Personal opinion is that’s kinda greedy, but we live in a capitalist society and they have that right and we have the option of participation.
I wouldn’t put my $5,000 sign in their auction now, I just lost $500 more dollars.
Maybe another auction house might take petroliana away from them!
Aumann could make a come back????
Competition is good for the pocketbook.
Mike, I don't post nothing like I used to and do pass any many posts but this post is nothing but a bunch of complaining that will get no where.
You don't like the increase call Dan himself! Call Dan morphy and complain. Nothing is going to happen complaining on this website!
Kinda like the Same People Over and Over Again complaining about Repops and Not Going to Post Anymore
I wonder if they are still going to post the disclosure to be able to see any maximum pre-bids left and/or also permit bids to be placed by the auctioneer, an employee of the auctioneer, or the seller or an agent on the seller's behalf. If so, then add that along with the 8% increase in buyers fee and you really are going to see a difference.
So when they sell a high end sign such as the Beacon Oil sign that went for I believe $50,000 and they are charging a 20% seller's fee and a 20% buyer's fee they would make $20,000? One one sign? Wow.
So when they sell a high end sign such as the Beacon Oil sign that went for I believe $50,000 they would make $20,000? One one sign? Wow.
$5,000 less profit...feel better
Sellers Premium @10% = $5,000
Buyers Premium @20% = $10,000
Not really...
So they only charge a 10% seller's fee?
Not really is right! You've also got the second place bidder that quit 10% early because of the additional funds he would have to spend!
I also see Aumann coming back and if they stick with the "normal" fees all the best to them.
I also see Aumann coming back and if they stick with the "normal" fees all the best to them.
Ditto that!!
Just might have to sell on ebay & only accept Credit Cards, NO PayPal.
OR Sell on OG W/O the fees & ask 3X what anything is worth [to keep my customers HAPPY!].
Gotta get a return on the buyout somehow.....
I know Dan from purchasing and selling at HIS auctions, and there is no reason for any complaint from me. The high auction premiums have as I have said for years now slowed my purchase power down, but that is my decision. I have personally witness auctions with low premiums and no internet and they did very very well. As spoken here by many, either you re-adjust or just look to other venues.
But do not go after the guy who has treated us well for many years and happily picked up the phone to answer questions and offer help.
My two cents...
Dan is Good!
Capitalism Good!
Any auction fee increases above current levels...BAD!
Complaining relevant to or hobby. excepted and a pertinent topic.
OG topic with more the 2 pages ...
Good for everyone here who loves the hobby. That's why we are all on here on a Saturday night and not doing other less healthy or productive things. Cheers and see you all out there. Get to an event and Bring cash. No shipping or extra fees!
For those not willing to participate in the auctions, here's a list of plenty of ways to spend your cash, with out any other fees.... Get out and enjoy some shows, you might learn something...
Oldgas Events Page
Ive personally known Dan Matthews for almost 15 years now.
I have watched several of you guys SLAM him every chance possible over the years and this is NO different!
The man took a job proposal or whatever to better HIS life!
If Morphy charges more then TAKE IT UP WITH HIM! I bet morphy would be glad to discuss this...He too is a great guy!
Ive been to auctions ALL OVER and seen premiums from 0-22% usually PLUS tax!
I SIMPLY adjust my bids accordingly! Just like ebay, I take the shipping charges into consideration when I bid!
Dan Matthews has bent over backwards for me on several occasions.
Sold items on short notice, held items until next show for FREE to avoid shipping fees,
let me pay the next day when I arrived at show, picked up items from other collectors to deliver to me, etc...etc...
Nobody likes change BUT IT MUST HAPPEN to progress in life
Funny how the same guys crying will be front and center at the auction kissing his butt or sitting home waiting for his call when their item sells....LOL
Here is dan morphy's auction info! If your truly sincere with voicing your concerns on his premiums, then take it up with him!
Morphy Auctions
2000 North Reading Road
Denver, PA 17517
Phone 717-335-3435
Fax 717-336-7115
Hours
Open 7 Days A Week
9AM - 4PM
You know guys, looking through this thread I really don't see a whole lot of posts that are laying this on Dan. The main thrust of all this is that we as collectors and protectors of this hobby who are in it for the love of this stuff (most of us grew up living in it) find that our hobby is being hijacked by profiteers, scammers and others who have a negative impact by driving prices much higher than what would be considered "reasonable" among our community. The increase in auction house fees just adds more fuel to the frustration. Morphy has every right to maximize their business anyway they see fit but the reality of it is that they will lose many auction bidders that simply cannot and will not pay the additional fees. Whether the loss of those bidders will have any significant impact on their business or the consignees is yet to be determined. In the meantime we will all continue to pursue exciting finds and trades within our community and at various shows across the country. Will I say today that I will boycott Morphy's auctions - probably not. But my ability to play in that arena will certainly be scaled back significantly. This stuff is still our there and although getting a tad bit harder to come by we see stuff still surfacing everyday on this site, most of which is being bought at "reasonable" prices. So to sum it up, the majority of these posts are not trashing Dan, he has been and will continue to be a good friend to hundreds of us on this site despite what Morphy decides to do with their business. And who knows, maybe Dan will be the advocate for the hobby that we think he is and cause a change of heart among the decision makers at Morphy's and reverse this new policy. Hell, our beloved government does it all the time. BTW, can't anyone find me a damn Phillips double bubble clock?
Dan is a class act and saw an opportunity and took it we all can agree to that. Yes Morphy charges more at their auctions but who knows, maybe that will help curb prices a bit that I feel are getting way out of hand again. Anyway there are many venues to buy items out there and that makes the hunt fun! Scott B.
I think we all trust Dan. He has done a great job all along building his specialty in the auction business.
I know that over the years my employer didn't always do things the way I would have liked, but it was his name over the front door. We did things his way. Dan is working for Morphy. They set the rates. If you don't like it, adjust your actions to fit within your comfort zone. When Dan comes up with his usual great items, we'll see who can hold back. Just sayin'.
It's all reletive. One of my best friends just lost his father and had to settle the estate. Two local aucion companies were contacted to explore various options.
Both auction companies price structure was 33% of final value. My guess is that's pretty typical.
The day has long passed that you are going to get a smokin hot deal at a well advertised auction. Plan to grow your collection accordingly.
Why hasn't Dan or Morphy posted some statement here? Yes, we are all friends of Dan's however he had to know, going into this deal, that WE were going to get screwed in the end. Our signs have grown in value just like cars at auction. All of the car auctions still charge 10% including BJ
If you would like to hear Dan's point of view, contact him directly. Not always wise to jump into a dramatic forum topic like this.
I don't type letters, I speak words, if you want a response from me call.
Also if you want to talk to Dan Morphy Tommy gave you his number, call it.
Guess I was smarter than you all thought......selling my collection at auction last year at Columbus and Des Moines. You remember those auctions......way back in the days when buyers premiums were only 10%. The low fees probably explain why the buyers in total paid at least 45% more for the items than I paid for them. I'm sure we'll all look back on those days with fond memories......I sure will!!
Great topic!! I enjoy reading the different perspectives about the buyers premium. It is very obvious that many of those who posted are also knowledgable about the expense side of running an auction firm.
With all the knowledge and wisdom displayed in this post I would be surprised if we don't see 2 or 3 of our Oldgas members start up their own auction firms in the coming year. Of course none of them will charge a buyers premium and we as members will all flock to their auctions and support them and they will be very sucessful.
That will teach those big auction firms a lesson!
I also like to wish everyone a Happy and Prosperous New Year!
Lonnie Hop
In my opinion the auction companies are making enough if they deal with a percentage of sales. With no buyers premium the prices would be higher and so would their cut. Nothing worse than checking out and being nailed with the premium and taxes to boot. Why are some companies like Millers offering great items with NO BUYERS PREMIUM? We the buyers are already paying a buyers premium by bidding on the item in auction. The idea of auction is to sell to highest bidder not to be nailed with fees. Somewhere in this post its states about 30% commission plus 20% buyers premium. Not bashing anyone but its getting ridiculous. Barrett Jackson doesn't charge that much selling and buying, in the 15% total charge. But I stand to be corrected. Enough said,Ted
Something everyone keeps forgetting is there are consignee fees and buyers fees.
Barett Jackson has a consignee fee and a buyers fee. There fee depends on day of auction and where it's at.
I am sure millers has both fees also... unless you work there or know there fees maybe the consignee is paying a 20%-30% fee and buyer is paying 0%?
The auctioneers are going to get paid somewhere. Someone like Morphy and Matthews are well known auction companies with Dan being a specialist in gas and oil. Does him being a specialist and knowing the hobby make him worth more? That is up to everyone personally. Would you rather buy a sign, can or globe from him or some auctioneer that doesn't have a clue what he has?
I seen Aumann Auctions mentioned... Does Aumann's have anyone that knows gas and oil since Dan left? Dan is what put Aumann's on the map for selling gas and oil!
I know from personal experience that talking to a auctioneer that doesn't have a clue what they have is very scary. Ever buy something from them and wonder how they are going to ship it?
I know local auction companies do a great job auctioneering and have low fees. Do they advertise where they need to? Do they have a following of buyers for gas and oil? Will there signs bring what Dans does?
No one likes a hike in fees... trust me i don't like higher fees! I will still buy from people i trust in this hobby if you can't buy it in person. I will just need to decide if i want to pay $1000 for a item that my bid needs to be $850 to pay $1000 for it.
I owned a local auction house. We were doing $100,000-$150,000 dollar auctions once a month.
Done properly it is a pretty good business model with very good profits. I had 20% sellers premium and 10% buyers premium.
-That's a 30% profit margin.
-With "0" money tied up in inventory. Any other business moving $150,000.00 worth of merchandise would be carrying $500,000.00 to a million dollars of inventory to realize that kind of sales.
-"0" receivables everyone pays at the time of the sale.
-Very little staff requirements. 95% of you staff is part-time only the day of the sale and the following day they are required.
-Customers pay all shipping costs to and from the auction.
-Your customers assume all the risk. i.e. poor or soft sale, theft or damage to items.
As you can see it's a pretty good gig with minimal risk and maximum profit margins. Not a struggling industry. In my opinion, this is more about profits then necessity. Like anything else, everyone wants to make the most money while the going is good.....
Again I didn't start this thread to bash Dan or Matthews auctions. I wanted to know if they had told anyone why the increase??
I will call and talk to Dan but as a business owner myself, If I raised prices 8% without a statement as to why, my customers probably wouldn't call me. They would be ***** and move onto another shop for their work.
I read the statement released by Matthew / Morphy auctions about the merger when it came out and felt, Good for Dan!! I would have understood this (and still might not of liked it) if in that statement they had explained that there would be an increase in the future. Finding it out when I read the ad in this months PCM was a surprise that made me feel Morphy was trying to slip one by us.
This is a hobby we all enjoy and hope that it keeps going to the next generation and any increases in costs always make me wonder will it keep going.
Again I know costs are going up but I don't have to like it, but I do like when someone takes time to explain why!!!
As for Millers Auctions, (No buyers premium in House) they are very good to deal with and I look forward to spending money there in February.
http://www.millersauctionco.com/http://www.auctionzip.com/cgi-bin/photopanel.cgi?listingid=1691371&category=0&zip=&kwd=
My last word on this. I've sold cars at Barrett Jackson, 10% consignor fee and 10% buyer fee. Dan charged these same percentages for a total of 20%, not bad. Once again, with the prices going through the roof this 20%, pretty much total profit, was not bad. This additional 8% is only hurting us, the buying public. A small increase of, say, 2% or 3% would not have caused this uproar and I for one would have excepted it and gone on but count me out on bidding unless someone else jumps into the auction business
Ray
Ray I just looked at Barrett Jackson's buyers premium and for automobila it's 15% and I would have to pay $500 just to have the right to bid. So if you look at it like that I would rather pay the 20% after I buy than pay $500 up front for a chance to buy.
One thing to remember, At Barrett there are probably more billionaires there then anything so 500 is chump change to them. The time I was there some guy bought a Sinclair pump plate for 350 plus premium. I knew I was screwed for buying anything.
After reading all of the comments made about Dan Matthews & Morphy's Auctions, I called and spoke to Dan Matthew yesterday. I told him that he was being strung up by the Old Gas lynch mob and that Morphy's was also being treated the same way. Dan indicated that very few people have called him and no one has called Morphy to discuss their concerns. Maybe it's me, but comparing the fees charged by Morphy's to Barrett Jackson's is like comparing apples to oranges. Most of the crowd who buy at the BJ auction are the lucky ones who don't have to worry about fees or what they spend. The BJ auction is an unrealistic event that most of the collectors may never be able to participate in.
No one auction company, swap meet or internet site forces a person to collect/sell, it's your choice as to where one participates. If you don't like the fees, call the auction company. When at a swap meet the same applies to an item for sale. If you can't come to an agreed price then just move on. No one is holding a gun to your head to make any purchase. Voice your concerns to Morphy's and we will see how it plays out.
Attending swap meets is a great way to buy/sell your items. Meeting other people in the hobby is good for information and making strong friendships.
Dan Matthew has been a great friend to me since his days at Aumann Auctions and I for one completely understand why he has merged with Morphy's, but bashing him for not making comments on this site is a no-win situation. No matter what he says will satisfy all who are questioning the fees being charged by the company he now works for. With Dan's knowledge, integrity and his contacts made over the last 17+ years, I feel that he will continue to bring items to auction that many have never seen or had the opportunity to purchase.
Keep in mind that YOU are the ONE who decides where & how much you will spend your collecting dollars.
.jpg "P1010017 (300x225).jpg")
.jpg "P1010018 (300x225).jpg")
.jpg "P1010019 (300x225).jpg")
.jpg "P1010025 (300x225).jpg")