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Posted By: Dave's Garage GM Becoming China Motors - Tue May 22 2012 04:45 PM
Here's some food for thought. Something to seriously think about. For how long can America keep exporting technology & jobs?


http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=Lvl5Gan69Wo
Posted By: oldgoaly Re: GM Becoming China Motors - Tue May 22 2012 05:10 PM
china moto..... I drive Fords
Posted By: gaspumpdon Re: GM Becoming China Motors - Tue May 22 2012 06:37 PM
After the BAILOUT I only buy FORD!!
Posted By: THERMOMAN Re: GM Becoming China Motors - Tue May 22 2012 10:05 PM
Do you think we will ever be great again?
Posted By: Notchcad Re: GM Becoming China Motors - Tue May 22 2012 10:52 PM
Originally Posted By: thermoman
Do you think we will ever be great again?

Nope!
Posted By: GILMORE Re: GM Becoming China Motors - Tue May 22 2012 11:51 PM
Interesting... I think I received that in an email before, but didn't watch it as I figured it was just another opinionated editorial... which it was. Not saying it isn't accurate, just saying it was pieced together to express their anti-GM views. They make it sound like GM is the only company investing in China.

Don't be naive, ALL auto manufacturers around the world are vying for a piece of the China auto market. I can tell by some of the comments here, that some bleed the "blue oval" of Ford. You guys do realize that Ford is, and has been, heavily invested in the China market too... or is this new news? Here's some of the latest Ford-China news...

Ford invests $760 million for new China plant, more capacity

As for the "bailout", it is sad that the "Big 3" were so badly managed and that the bailout happened. But, if you do some research, you'll find that while GM and Chrysler were loaned money and "bailed out", Ford itself received 6 Billion at that time, as well. Only it was termed a "loan" as they officially didn't need a bailout, like GM and Chrysler did. Yet, you never hear Ford mentioned in the bailout of the auto industry. Also, remember Ford privately mortgaged itself to investors a few years earlier, raising 26 Billion. Some of that money came from, you guessed it- the Chinese!

My mind is still open on the bailout issue. The good I see is that there seem to be more "positives" than "negatives" coming out of Detroit nowadays and it seems that all three of the companies are better managed. Did the "bailout" need to happen? Who knows what would have happened exactly if there were no loans/bailout. Would GM and Chrysler exist today?... would Ford? I assume so.

Reality is is that there is no "do-over". It happened whether we like it or not. If politics are your reason to be against it, do some research and you'll find that the last two administrations "bailed out" the auto industry. Yes, the current gave out an insane amount, but the loan amounts from the previous would surprise you, as well.

For what it's worth, I have nothing against Ford. Just putting some facts out there. I do my own research and don't rely on TV networks or flashpoint videos in chain emails to give me the news.

Soooo... good luck in trying to buy a vehicle where the company/manufacturer doesn't have Chinese investment or taxpayer money involved. Your better off building your car yourself. With that, good luck in trying to find USA made only parts... in fact, good luck trying to find North American made only parts. Yes, it's sad, but that's just the way it is and it's been that way for years. Nothing new.
Posted By: GILMORE Re: GM Becoming China Motors - Tue May 22 2012 11:52 PM
Originally Posted By: notchcad
Originally Posted By: thermoman
Do you think we will ever be great again?

Nope!


I agree... nope!
Posted By: 57tbirdkid Re: GM Becoming China Motors - Wed May 23 2012 01:40 AM
If some of you do not know ford is and has been invested in china due to there new ceo. Transmissions in many new ford porducts are sourced from china and have had many issues....I believe ford has stopped using these transmissions. The new ford mustang transmission is from china. I do not and will never buy anything made in china. They always make the item look the same but the quality is sub par. They are very good at copying but have no knowledge what so ever in enigneering and design.. I blame the amercian people for buying these products for all these years because they were/ are cheap....we dug our own hole now we must deal with it.
Posted By: Bud Miley Re: GM Becoming China Motors - Wed May 23 2012 02:01 AM
I agree with 57tbird.. everywhere you look everything is made in China and we export nothing anymore. Walmart is just a branch from China along with the other dept stores. You can part thank the high union wages for this. US companies are desperate to compete with unskilled labor and non union wage workers from foreign countries
Posted By: Notchcad Re: GM Becoming China Motors - Wed May 23 2012 02:35 AM
It all boils down to Americans ( in general) are lazy and spoiled and aren't gonna get any better cause the new generations are spoiled rotten brats. No one wants to work anymore and think they are worth more than the next guy just cause they grew up a certain way. It will never turn back and will never be better. As the 40s,50s,and 60s babies die off we will no longer have anyone who ever worked hard or will remember what American made or proud to be American even means. Look around at what you work with in whatever industry you're in..... Bet it didn't look anything like that 20 years ago. That's what's happening to everything. Americans are too lazy to be proud. Instead they let other countries work and people from other countries work for cheaper and bring down wages and quality everywhere.......
Posted By: gaspumpdon Re: GM Becoming China Motors - Wed May 23 2012 10:21 AM
I don't buy Ford cause there 100% made in American!! I just don't like bailing out unions. The public sector unions are running this country into bankruptcy
Posted By: GILMORE Re: GM Becoming China Motors - Wed May 23 2012 05:34 PM
Originally Posted By: gaspumpdon
I don't buy Ford cause there 100% made in American!! I just don't like bailing out unions. The public sector unions are running this country into bankruptcy


I agree, to a point. I don't get your point on buying Ford only, as they are "in bed" with the unions as well. Ultimately, the same UAW deals with Ford. That's the same UAW that was involved in the bailout deals. Granted UAW doesn't have the same "stake" in Ford due to the bailout deals of GM and Chrysler, but like I said, same UAW. Educate me on how buying UAW built Ford is different than buying a UAW built GM or Chrysler vehicle.

Whether your an employee protected by a union or not, you likely want to see your income wage go up and have good health insurance/benefits. I've never heard of anyone saying they want lower wages and have their health insurance/benefits taken away. That's the good about unions, the bad is corruption. I come from Chicago, I know and have seen the corruption first hand.
Posted By: gaspumpdon Re: GM Becoming China Motors - Wed May 23 2012 06:00 PM
Thats the point, the unions don't own ford!!
Posted By: GILMORE Re: GM Becoming China Motors - Wed May 23 2012 07:09 PM
Originally Posted By: gaspumpdon
Thats the point, the unions don't own ford!!


I guess it matters how you look at it and at that, how you separate the "clean" money from the dirty, tainted bailout money. Ford is owned by stockholders. The UAW doesn't bury their profits/withholdings in the backyard, they invest it. Yep, they are invested in Ford. Same way they "own" GM, by being stockholders. Yes, they were "given" shares of the "new" GM company. They also lost money/shares due to the bankruptcy, which is in part, why they were given a percentage of GM, a percentage of stock. Should they have done that?... that's another topic. From what I've read, the "cause and effect" of the UAW losing all that money, would have hurt Ford as well. (and just so you know, this comes from papers such as the Wall Street Journal and Bloomberg, not from what you would call "Liberal" sources) That's one reason why Ford itself lobbied on behalf of GM and Chrysler to receive the bailout money- the "cause and effect" of it all.

It's easy to give the one-liners in all the ways Ford is better, but you need to realize that while the "Big 3" are competitors, they are tied into each other in more ways than one. One of those ways is the entity you hate- the UAW! I'm not trying to turn you against Ford, just pointing out facts that are readily available in media and on the internet. I've heard the Ford -vs- Chevy debate all my life and honestly don't understand the passion that goes with it. Not saying that is where you coming from, just sounds like it, IMO.

Your comments reminded me of when I was sitting in my chair at a car show last year, alongside several people I had just met. A guy who owned a (trailered) 60's something Mustang, and was wearing a "NO BAILOUT" Ford shirt and had a Kansas hat on, starting talking about what how he is fed up with the unions and was going to do his best not to support them. I didn't say anything, but a guy sitting by us made the comment that that was going to be hard to do. Long story short... the beer he was drinking was made by union workers, the store he bought that and his food from has a grocery union and the store itself was union built. The hotel he was staying at has union workers and also was union built. The newer Ford truck he had was UAW built and the trailer he hauled his Mustang on was likely union built. The roads he traveled on and the bridges he crossed were union built. Turns out he had a kid that attended Kansas and kids yet in high school- all union taught. As you can imagine, the guy stopped his union rant.

Since then, I see people wearing the "NO BAILOUT" Ford shirts and think of that guy.
Posted By: Oldgas Re: GM Becoming China Motors - Wed May 23 2012 07:20 PM
Please remember that controversial political comments are not allowed on this forum. This topic is going in that direction. Please follow the rule.
Posted By: GILMORE Re: GM Becoming China Motors - Wed May 23 2012 07:58 PM
There won't be any political comments from me, I can't stand nor do I understand politics. It IS hard to refrain from having a political "undertone" though in a topic such as this.

Regarding the video, I just wanted to point out that Ford is involved in China, just as every auto manufacturer is and has been and will be in the future. Also, just wanted to point out that the UAW/unions are involved in Ford's operations and ownership. Despite the feelings of some, everything in the world of Ford is not "hunky-dory" just like it isn't in the other 2 companies of the Big 3.
Posted By: Old Iron Re: GM Becoming China Motors - Wed May 23 2012 09:07 PM
At the risk of having Jim delete this post,personally I think the United States is pretty great right now.

What other country has the ability to house,feed,provide clean drinking water and electricity and protect their citizens as well as we can?We grow enough food to feed ourselves and export more,our economy can provide financial aid to others and our military has no equal.I think that is pretty great considering everything.

I also have faith in our younger generation.Having "been there,done that"I think when they are through "partying"they will settle down and go to work as generations who came before them did.
Posted By: Ohio Oil Re: GM Becoming China Motors - Fri May 25 2012 12:09 PM
Kind of hard to fault US companies for doing business with China when our government borrows from China in order to continue deficit spending.

I just bought a new Ford and love it. Being the recipient of a
6 billion dollar loan isn't even in the same zip code as an
80 billion dollar bailout. Let's compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges.
Posted By: gulfiend! Re: GM Becoming China Motors - Fri May 25 2012 12:15 PM
...yeah those horrible unions...perpetrating atrocities like 5-day work weeks, 8 hour days and safer working conditions on us...what the hell were they thinking? Let the rich make the rules - they're looking out for us, right?...sheesh...

...if you want to complain about bailouts, ***** about Wall Street and the 'too big to fail' banks...
Posted By: GILMORE Re: GM Becoming China Motors - Fri May 25 2012 07:29 PM
It's the flavor of the week, gulfiend. Seems to me that if you ask most people what it is they actually have against them (unions), they'd just throw back the popular one-liners instead of actually explaining/knowing what they are against/talking about. Unfortunately, seems that facts and truths are pushed aside and ignored nowadays in favor of the bumper sticker slogan movement. Not saying there aren't any negatives in the unions today, not saying that at all. Just explain them, if you have them. Like you mentioned, there have been many, many benefits that have resulted from union influence. People just don't see it nor seem to care.

Originally Posted By: Ohio Oil
I just bought a new Ford and love it. Being the recipient of a 6 billion dollar loan isn't even in the same zip code as an 80 billion dollar bailout. Let's compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges.


Glad you like your new Ford. I didn't say there was anything wrong with buying a Ford. Just don't claim that Ford doesn't have anything to do with China or didn't have anything to do with "bailout" money or "the unions don't own ford"... or wear the shirts saying "NO BAILOUT" or "Built without your tax dollars."



IMO, and many others, a "loan" is a "loan"... an "apple" to an "apple" as you say. Just because one loan is organized differently and termed a "bailout" and the other isn't, doesn't change the fact that taxpayer money was given out to each. The only "apple" to "orange" comparison I see is that 2 were facing bankruptcy and the other wasn't. Truth is though, they (Ford) were facing bankruptcy a few years prior. In that sense, Ford was years ahead of GM and Chrysler. Good timing for avoiding the "bailout" involvement, I guess.
Posted By: GILMORE Re: GM Becoming China Motors - Fri May 25 2012 07:31 PM
I do have some good news relating to Ford Motor Co. Seems they have been upgraded to "Investment" status by Moody's, as opposed to being listed as "Junk" status for 7 years. That means that all the collateral they gave to be "bailed out" by investors in 2006, they now have control of again. The trademark Ford blue oval that they hocked, is back in the hands of Ford.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-05-23/ford-reclaims-heritage-with-investment-grade-rating
Posted By: Ohio Oil Re: GM Becoming China Motors - Fri May 25 2012 08:11 PM
Gilmore....let's at least discuss the issue with facts.

The 6 billion in loans Ford received was issued by the Department of Energy with the purpose of helping auto companies meet the new cafe ratings of 35 mpg by 2020...which is a whopping 40% increase. Ford used the money to upgrade facilities to help accomplish that goal.

Nissan, Tesla, battery companies, and many other auto related companies received similar loans from the same program for the same purpose.

It is intellectually dishonest to equate that to receiving Tarp money or assistance from the government to avoid going into bankruptcy.
Posted By: GILMORE Re: GM Becoming China Motors - Fri May 25 2012 08:56 PM
Originally Posted By: Ohio Oil
Gilmore....let's at least discuss the issue with facts.

The 6 billion in loans Ford received was issued by the Department of Energy with the purpose of helping auto companies meet the new cafe ratings of 35 mpg by 2020...which is a whopping 40% increase. Ford used the money to upgrade facilities to help accomplish that goal.

Nissan, Tesla, battery companies, and many other auto related companies received similar loans from the same program for the same purpose.


Yes, the DOE is where the loan came from- which is still a loan consisting of taxpayer money. I realize your point of what it was used for, but like I said before... a loan is a loan, right? When you ask for money, you ask for money. If I remember right, some of the bailout money GM and Chrysler received was to go to same areas- upgrading facilities.

Since I don't know what article you just read, did it mention Ford ASKING for this 6 Billion from Congress? Did it mention Ford asking for 9 Billion of the "bailout" money to be set aside for "emergency" purposes? Of which they didn't end up taking/using.

"Ford CEO Alan Mulally said he'll work for $1 per year if the company has to take any government loan money."

Originally Posted By: Ohio Oil
It is intellectually dishonest to equate that to receiving Tarp money or assistance from the government to avoid going into bankruptcy.


I think you need to re-read my comments below, especially the "apple to orange" comment.

Originally Posted By: GILMORE
IMO, and many others, a "loan" is a "loan"... an "apple" to an "apple" as you say. Just because one loan is organized differently and termed a "bailout" and the other isn't, doesn't change the fact that taxpayer money was given out to each. The only "apple" to "orange" comparison I see is that 2 were facing bankruptcy and the other wasn't. Truth is though, they (Ford) were facing bankruptcy a few years prior. In that sense, Ford was years ahead of GM and Chrysler. Good timing for avoiding the "bailout" involvement, I guess.
Posted By: GILMORE Re: GM Becoming China Motors - Sat May 26 2012 12:24 AM
Here's a Chevrolet/GM rant for ya... this weekend, if you watch any of the INDY 500 stuff, you'll notice and hear about the reemergence of Chevrolet into the INDYCAR series.

Ask yourself why/how a company that- 1) just got out of bankruptcy, was "bailed out" and owes billions of dollars yet, and 2) left the IRL (former series name, now INDYCAR series) in '05 or '06 because of financial reasons and the fact that the series itself was failing... can afford to spend millions and millions of dollars into a series that frankly isn't popular.

I'm glad to see that an American company will again be represented in the INDY 500, but it seems to me that GM/Chevrolet could find better ways of spending money rather than put millions into a racing program. Any thoughts???
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