delete

[This message has been edited by bettin (edited 08-22-2005).]

RON, DO I SEE THREE FIGURES ON THOSE PRICE TAGS? PRETTY BALLSY IF YOU ASK ME FOR REPRODUCTIONS!
DID THE TAGS SAY REPRO? IF THEY DO AT THOSE PRICES, THEY MAY HANG ON THE WALLS THERE FOR A LONG TIME!

DOC @ TAG/WEST

Thanks Ron. That's good info to have.
Bob

Ron, Was the Esso kerosene sign repro too? if so how can you tell? what kind of makers mark does this sign have? Where were the origianl signs made, I have seen these signs being sold from India, were these signs ever made there?

ron a 30inc texaco showed up at mass gas last year porclain was pretty heavy would fool alot of people but that never game in a 30in good job

What did the seller say about age and where they were from?? or did they claim conSIGNment ??

The ESSO original sign maker is Bengal Enamel a foreign sign dealer TOLD ME if it did not read Bengal Enamel its a reproduction.
One good way to tell the difference is the WHITE will be very white-bright like the Texaco VS the Mobil next to it.Look how bright the white is on the Standard,most foreign signs are bright white but not as bright as the ones Ron has posted.Your not going to find day-one looking signs in a antique mall.
The next TELL is the price most often below the market.
There are porcelain signs being made in Germany by the original methods they have nice shelving and weight again the colors are too bright.
I have not seen a KNOWN sign makers name on a porcelain reproduction sign yet.
Thanks for the pictures Ron and helping the hobby.
.............
REX LIKES SIGNS

I have seen that Phillips 66 sign at the Mendenhalls along with several other of these higher quality reproduction signs. In the case of Mendenhall I'm pretty certain that they were all produced by the same person. There were some Flying A Chicken Wing signs on ebay very recently that I believe were also from this same maker. They were being offered as repros and selling for around $200.00.

I found the photo of the Phillips 66 sign. The Minute Man is also a repro and I believe that the Tydol ethyl is too.



I know that the originator was not trying to pass these off as original, but they are not marked as reproductions either so it would not be hard for an uneducated dealer to mistake them for real signs as they are very well made.

If you look on the currents Sign of the Month thread I posted a photo of two Beacon signs at Mendenhalls. These are both repros made by the same guy. I'll see if I can get a name and location on the maker.

[This message has been edited by the poor mans museum (edited 04-13-2005).]

I think all the sigs Ron is showing immediatley looks like a repro to me, because they are mint with no chips at all, maybe I am not used to seeing an authentic porcelain sign from the 40s 50 60s that is mint with no rust stains or chipping, I try to buy good condition signs, but I don't think I own a sign that doesn't have some sort of flaw, but the question I have is has anyone seen repro signs made to look like they have some wear, with the chips scratches, slight fading, that is my biggest fear!

Yes, I've definitely seen repros that have been damaged or "aged". The Mobil pump plate that Claes mentioned in another topic is a perfect example. That one had the repro mark chipped off.

A friend of mine got burned on 3 pump plates. They looked old and far from mint. He paid about $200 under retail for each and sold two of them at retail to help offset the cost of the one he kept. One of his buyers called him a few months later and informed him it was a fake and wanted his money back. My friend called the guy he bought them from and told him one of the guys he sold a sign to thought it was a repro. The original seller admitted that it was a fake and went on to say he had chipped all the signs around the screw holes and chipped the edges by banging them on concrete. Then he buried them in his horse barn for two years. He refused to refund my friends money because he had been very careful to not say they were original.
To my friends credit, he bought the two signs back. He was so angry over the whole thing that he destroyed all three signs.

So yes, dishonest sellers will go to great lengths to seperate buyers from their money.
You have to do your homework. Educating yourself is the best insurance against getting taken on an unmarked repro. Most collectors have a small library of price guides. The pricing in these books is usually worthless, but the information is invaluable. The more information you have, the better off you'll be. Go to the shows, talk to guys that have been collecting for a long time. Ask them questions so you don't make the same mistakes that they made. Find out who the reputable dealers are and do business with them.

As the price of signs increases the motivation to create high quality reproduction signs increases as well.

For example if a real sign costs $100.00 and the cost to reproduce it is $200.00, what's the motivation. But if that $100.00 sign is now worth $500.00 it's worth reproducting.

As long as the reproductions are represented as such I don't see anything wrong with that. It's when unscrupulous sellers start distressing repros (like scratching off the repro marks) to make them look real that I get bothered. I saw several signs in an antique mall locally a couple of weeks ago that were being passed off as real based on the prices, but were distressed repros.

As the value and interest in signs continues to increase this problem is only going to get worse. That's the value of this site and guys like Ron Bettin and Claues that are keeping an eye out on what's being reproduced or faked and bringing it to our attention.

Go to as many shows/swap meets/auctions, etc. as possible. Learn the "feel" & color of original signs. The minute man sign in the photo doesn't have the correct colors on his face. As was stated, educate yourself, no one wants a bad memory hanging on their wall.

As for the ESSO Elephant Kero signs. All of the originals are marked Bengal Enamel. None of the reproductions are marked. HOWEVER, some of the originals are also unmarked and very hard to tell from the originals. So just because they aren't marked doesn't mean they are not originals, but that is also why the price has dropped from $1,400 to $200!

I've been told that the name of the guy that makes these signs is Jerry Van Dyke and that he is somewhere in they San Francisco Bay area of California. I have seen a number of his signs and they are all very well done and not the commons signs that you see from Ande Roone.

The "giveaway" on these signs is that they are extremely glossy, even compared to a mint original. There may also be some minor color variations as was previously mentioned.

What I don't know is if this guy is still producing the signs as I have not found a source for them so far, or if he just did a limited run of certain signs and then stopped.

I will update if I find out any new information.

Starting last year at the NSRA South Car show, then at the Goodguys Car Show in Des Moines in July, and just recently at Grayslake Auto Swap meet, two fellows in a 1994 Ford Dark Greeen full size van (Ohio License #DBQ8124) have been selling the signs that have been listed in this article,as orginals, they have dirt marks on them, and some have small cement looking spots on them. When you confront them if they are reproduction, they're comment is, "that they bought them as orginal".I looked under they're van and they had stacks of these reproductions .

Id like to know who is making these repros. Id like to get a repro minuteman sign as I had to part with my original.
-Ike

good job hud oil... you got the plate# and all......... cheese

The maker of the Beacon reproduction signs is Jerry Van Dyke out of Northern California. He does amazing work but does not try to put them out as the real thing.
Jerry does not do mass production, only one of a kind and one off signs unless he's changed is ways. Many of the signs in Ron's pictures are not reproduction, some are real. It's not hard to tell a repro sign from the real thing if you have some basic knowledge. Just always know, if the price is too low in a retail situation...beware. The only place you are going to find a rare piece at a cheap price is in someone who is selling from that "old barn that you find in the woods" and we know that dosen't happen often unless your name is Ron Bettin.
Ron has fantastic luck sometimes but that's because he has a good reputation and is actually a nice guy.

Do you have any contact info? A web search didnt turn up much.
-Thanks
-Ike