Another FAKE Sign From INDIA!

Posted by: 57tbirdkid

Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! - Thu Jul 21 2011 09:35 AM

Fake Firestone Sign- Sloppy As Usual.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Vintage-Firesto...=item3a686166ec
Posted by: Rick Brown

Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! - Thu Jul 21 2011 03:14 PM

Learn your signs! Location is not a 100% way to determine if a sign is real or not. I say this Firestone Sign is REAL! To many people try to determine if a sign is real or fake just becasue of the listing location or the person listing the item. Yes, these may be factors, but not the true test of age.
Posted by: J.E.Radebaugh

Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! - Thu Jul 21 2011 03:44 PM

Not trying to start an argument here, but I would agree with Keith. IMO it's fake. The font is all wrong (compared to the one in Mr. Amistadi's book on page 102).
Posted by: THE AMERICAN GARAGE

Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! - Thu Jul 21 2011 04:41 PM

I'D BE ON THE FENCE WITH THIS ONE. THE SHELVING LOOKS HEAVY AND LEGIT AS DOES THE GLOSSY OLD TIME PORC FINISH. NOT ALL SIGNS WERE MADE IN THE STATES BACK IN THE DAY FOR OVERSEAS COUNTRIES.
Posted by: Bud Miley

Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! - Thu Jul 21 2011 05:00 PM

I agree with Rick here, nothing sloppy, and the letters are clear and ssharp. Looks like a pole sign or something..
Posted by: Bud Miley

Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! - Thu Jul 21 2011 05:02 PM

I agree with Rick here, nothing sloppy, and the letters are clear and ssharp. Looks like a pole sign.
Posted by: J.E.Radebaugh

Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! - Thu Jul 21 2011 05:20 PM

Here is my question (and I'm not trying to be argumentative, just for the sake of discussion). Why is the sign in English if India's official language is Hindi? The back of the sign appears to be in a Non-English language, why not the front?

The sign (if original) is from the 30's. India's literacy rate in 1931 was 7% and was under 12% in 1947 (not to mention the sign is in English). Wouldn't it have made more sense for Firestone to display a picture of a tire on their sign for their India market with their script (to help facilitate sales to people who couldn't read)?

I have done two tours in Iraq and I had no idea what their signs were trying to advertise (because they were in Arabic, and I can't read Arabic) unless they had a picture on them.

Just my opinion.





Posted by: Rick Brown

Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! - Thu Jul 21 2011 06:59 PM

Even if you think the official language is or was Hindi, more people in India speak English than any other language. English may be just a second language to a big percentage of people in India, but even back in the early 1900's when this was a British Coloney, the language was English. How many of you sign collector have knowledge of The Bengal Enamel Works? Bengal made porcelain signs for markets around the world. Bengal made signs for Mobil Oil, I have seen a large Mobil Oil keyhole sign with the Bengal makers' name on the bottom of it. Bengal made signs for Firestone, I have seen Firestone signs with the Bengal makers' mark. Firestone sold tires all over the world. Amistadi's book contains a lot of different signs, but is is not 100% complete or correct. The Firestone sign in question is a great example of early 1900's porcelain advertising. The letters are not sloppy, this was how the lettering was designed to look. It is not my sign, I really have no interest or ownership in the sign, I am just trying to point out that some of you guys make the real or fake call using indicators that can be flawed. The two most flawed indicators I am talking about have to do with the sign location and do we like the person who has the sign listed. This is not an argument or a finger pointing game, it is one persons opinion.
Posted by: 57tbirdkid

Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! - Thu Jul 21 2011 07:54 PM

I am not here to argue and I am not here to be put down and told to LEARN YOUR SIGNS. I am here to be RESPECTFUL and educate myself on this hobby! As a new collector and collector of strictly Porcelain Firestone signs I still feel this is a FAKE sign. Can I be wrong? Sure. Is the location and seller part of my judgment? ABSOLUTELY! BUT So is the sign itself. Rick and Jamie have some very valid points. But as collectors we need each other to learn from as well as all avail resources. Personally I have never seen this version of a Firestone sign, but then again I am newer to the hobby. I have many porcelain Firestone signs in the same Version's by DIFFERENT sign makers and they are virtually identical. The people who made this sign ran out of metal so they used a sign that they messed up on (that is why there is another sign on the back). Let's get down to a comparison. The letters in this sign are TOUCHING each other. Out of every porcelain Firestone I have seen the letters are evenly spaced and not touching each other. Shelving and gloss are not ways to determine if a sign is real or fake. Plenty of fake signs have great shelving and gloss(remember the people making these signs are using a technique from the 1930's- and all have wear by the screw holes). I have to give this seller credit. This sign would deceive many people and whoever made it did a good job. Here is a picture to compare. They may be two different versions-but consistency goes through most of the Firestone signs of this era The font is not right either as Jamie pointed out . I may be totally wrong, but I would not buy this sign.




Posted by: Dick Bennett

Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! - Thu Jul 21 2011 08:19 PM

Evidently they cleaned the front, why wouldn't they clean the back?
Posted by: Bud Miley

Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! - Thu Jul 21 2011 10:39 PM

Personally Tbird, I think you should have made the post say "Is this real?". But instead you Blast Off with the topic "Another FAKE Sign From INDIA!" Fake Firestone Sign- Sloppy As Usual. The comments didnt have Why it was fake or why you thought so?? or any comparison pics. I wouldnt think Firestone used the same company in the US to make both US and India signs back then.
Posted by: jackofalltrades

Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! - Fri Jul 22 2011 07:30 AM

Not going to argue whether the sign is real or not. But, I will say there are talented craftsman in India that could easily produce that sign.

An example of readily available talent: over there if you crash the fender of your car (which happens all the time because they drive crazy) rather than buy a new fender, you have the old one fixed. Labor is cheaper than the part itself. A skilled metalworker bangs out the dents, filler to get it smooth, and paints it. Looks new. Everywhere there are little shops that weld, fab, and paint. Easy to get a sign like this made there, even from heavy steel.

Over the past 10 years the metal forming tool and die trade has exploded over there. There's a reason Tata Motors (India) bought Jaguar and Land Rover. Many "engineering" students and skilled craftsman looking for work for cheap labor rates.

With more and more equipment (cnc, presses, etc) going there, you will see more difficult signs reproduced. Deep drawn text, fancy formed perimeters, complex colors in porcelain, all will be produced with time. They just need to find a market and draw up what the sign should look like. Surf the web for that rare sign, find dimensions, search several photos to get exact colors and text, make the sign, age and distress it to show it's old, find an American seller to move the products here.

Ever wonder why you can buy just about any high $ prescription drug there for about 10% the cost here? They are the capital of counterfeit drugs. Also, any book you can imagine here is printed there for pennies on the dollar and then shipped around the world. Harry Potter for example, thousands of copies made there ilegally and shipped worldwide. They would be just as willing to counterfeit signs if it was profitable.

I've traveled in India. I work in metalforming (automotive, ag, hvy truck, appliance). To have signs made there and shipped here would be a profitable venture, but very destructive to our hobby and to existing collections. IMO, best way to keep it to a minimum is to be careful when sharing high resolution straight on images of signs, specific dimensions, or other info that could be used to create quality counterfeits. Without that info, or without an original sign to copy, they don't have a good reference to use.
Posted by: 57tbirdkid

Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! - Fri Jul 22 2011 08:54 AM

Bud,

I agree with you on a different topic name and that I should have been more descriptive on WHY I thought this was a fake sign. Let's get some more feedback and the moderator of this forum can change the title of the post if they would like.

Thanks
Posted by: JimT

Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! - Fri Jul 22 2011 07:37 PM

Just my too sense...And I have a lot to learn about signs too. That being said, I havent seen backward shelving like around the letters of this sign. The orange was applied only about a half or three quarters of an inch under/ beyond the blue. Looks like double shelving. Looks like they wanted to save orange frit. Looks really hokey. I'd say another FAKE sign from SOMEWHERE!
Posted by: marxmobilgas

Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! - Sat Jul 23 2011 11:08 PM

looks off to me, look at his Goodyear sign
Posted by: marxmobilgas

Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! - Tue Aug 02 2011 09:53 AM

Here TWO sold Elephant Kerosene signs from this seller:
260818000053 Esso Elephant Kerosene sold for $115
260823985986 Esso Elephant Kerosene sold for $192

330594343544 Roadfinder Bicycles sign another India seller
250839957520 same Roadfinder sign this seller

These are a real problem when they show up in the US
Posted by: 57tbirdkid

Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! - Tue Aug 02 2011 11:10 AM

Yes these are a MAJOR issue!
Posted by: Madison Oil

Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! - Tue Aug 02 2011 09:37 PM

Please explain how these are real problems and major issues when they show up here in the US?
Posted by: 57tbirdkid

Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! - Tue Aug 02 2011 09:56 PM

This sign prob will as it sold on ebay for $550. An uneducated buyer may purchase this sign thinking it is the real deal-this is why it is of concern to the hobby.
Posted by: marxmobilgas

Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! - Tue Aug 02 2011 10:05 PM

Madison,

Take these India signs, add your own "story" of how you found it in a barn, take it to a local auction/fleamarket and boom you pollute the original sign market (and devalue your originals) with unmarked, very original looking fakes.

Others see the market for aged fake signs, join in and bring more fakes. Then it becomes a struggle to convince people of the aunthenicity and VALUE of your genuine originals. Along with duping the unsuspecting public.

Had I not known of this website and the flurry of fake India signs, I might have bought one myself, paid good money, and would be really PO'd to find out mines a fake

Its a problem there too in India for the same reasons.

And as the repros that were bought as repros now get older and age/wear/chip themselves, we run into this problem again.
"Grandpa had this sign in his shop for 20 years" will actually be true but with a new but now 20 yr old sign.
Posted by: LOWright

Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! - Wed Aug 03 2011 06:39 AM

Your right JimT ! My first thought was that the shelving was not right. Take that and who's selling it and i wouldn't touch it, real or not!
Posted by: Madison Oil

Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! - Wed Aug 03 2011 09:02 PM

My opinion is that many of the signs being talked about in this thread are real, but you make the call for yourself. Opinon are like holes, and we all have no less than one.
Posted by: signgod2112

Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! - Fri Aug 05 2011 10:09 PM

YES, THERE ARE A COUPLE OF PEOPLE IN INDIA REPOPING PORCELAIN SIGNS. DO YOU REALIZE HOW MANY PEOPLE IN THE U.S. ARE MAKING PORCELAIN REPOPS?
Posted by: 57tbirdkid

Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! - Thu May 17 2012 06:36 AM

261026735333
Posted by: Dave's Garage

Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! - Thu May 17 2012 04:25 PM

I wouldn't buy a sign from India, because 100% of the ones I have seen are fake. That is the only reason I don't own a Esso Elephant Kerosene sign and never will.

They have tainted all Esso Elephant Kerosene signs for me.

To many dishonest e-Bay sellers are importing the fakes and selling them locally as real ones.

Chances of you buying a fake one are greater than you buying a real one! And in my books that's a fact.
Posted by: JimT

Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! - Thu May 17 2012 09:44 PM

Garbage
Posted by: K W FRITH

Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! - Sun May 20 2012 11:12 AM

Nice looking sidewalk!
Posted by: THERMOMAN

Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! - Sun May 20 2012 05:17 PM

The way our hobby is heading every porcelain sign will be an esso elephant or an oval mobil gargoyle. So widely accepted repops that the majority of buyers are not aware or do not care any longer
Posted by: Old Iron

Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! - Mon May 21 2012 10:06 AM

Good point Thermoman.I've got several pieces in my collection,tin signs,porcelain pump plates and decals,that are seldom seen and a few that no one areund here even knew existed.This is one of the reasons I will never post pics of them.They can't pop them if they don't know what an original looked like!!

You taught me well DB when you said not to post them if I don't want them popped.I listened.