Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums General Petroliana Discussion Oldgas in PCM...but a problem!

So I get the issue of PCM last week and see on page 2 some stuff about a Colorado company and right away I recognized the pics as those that were in the COTM that I helped with along with many other Colorado company collectors. http://www.oldgas.com/shoptalk/ubb/Forum4/HTML/002052.html
So we know they look at the pictures but do they read the articles? There have been lots of posts on here about copyrights of pictures posted on old gas and copyrighting of old logos, etc. http://www.oldgas.com/shoptalk/ubb/Forum1/HTML/004309.html http://www.oldgas.com/shoptalk/ubb/Forum1/HTML/004305.html http://www.oldgas.com/shoptalk/ubb/Forum1/HTML/006946.html http://www.oldgas.com/shoptalk/ubb/Forum1/HTML/006152.html http://www.oldgas.com/shoptalk/ubb/Forum1/HTML/006914.html
That was just a few a quick search turned up.
I know for a fact that at least one of these pics was taken from this site without the owners concent or knowledge. I love seeing these images and love PCM and the history it provides but now I wonder who is right about the images posted on here. I think the consensus has been that these images are the property of the person who posts them and can't be reproduced (the image) without permission. But I would think that a magazine would know the copyright laws so who is right?
Those of us who put that COTM together were very careful to get permission from the people providing the pictures to use them. Most notable are the Cliff Brice photos that many of us in Colorado had been provided by Bonner Brice on the condition that they not be forwarded or published without permission. We got permission to use them in the COTM. I'm sure he would not be happy if these were put in a magazine without his permission.
I think oldgas should put the magazines on notice that these pictures are not in the public domain and cannot be reproduced without permission if that is truely the case. Is it in the user agreement?
Not bashing the magazine. I love it and have subscibed for years but I know this has been a troublesome issue here on oldgas for a long time and if pics start turning up everywhere I know eventually there are going to be problems.
chris

I would say the first thing you should do is ask Scott where he got the pictures you're talking about.

I don't get PCM but I was told a one of a kind globe of mine appeared in PCM. Prior to that it had appeared in BOTW on this site. I asked Scott where he got the picture. As it turns out a prior owner of the globe had sent him the picture.

I don't think PCM is in the habit of pirating pictures. It could be someone sent the pictures to the magazine. If it turns out the pics did come from this site then you need to talk to Jim Potts.

On the flip side, when I was a moderator and working on the "...Of The Month" features in the showcase forum, Scott gave me permission to use any image from his books or magazines in those features.

Just to add to Bob's post... When Bob was doing GOTM he had permission to use images from Aumann and Matthews and from Scott B. from PCM or his website gasglobes.com.

I will add Scott did say he first seen the globe on oldgas.com. He did say who has the globe, I am sure Scott knows who owns the globe.

What globe are we talking about here? What pics???

This should have been settled with a phone call to Scott Benjamin, before posting here.
Has anyone tried calling ?

Scott...The Split-Second Gas and the Jewel Nitro Globe are pictured.
Dick...I don't have to...I know the people who posted them didn't know about them being in PCM.
Bob...You are right that I don't know who forwarded them to PCM. But the key word in both your post and JJ's is "permission". I don't know that the people who posted the pictures wouldn't have given permission to run them. Were there other copys out there? Maybe. But the article states that "...a photograph of a Split-Second globe appeared on Jim Pott's web site, oldgas.com. Collector "Coltex" on the site had posted the globe and several others asked about the company." It goes on to read "Another Colorado discovery from the same Colorado "Old Gas Showcase" is the Nitro globe, also shown here."
I'm not ripping PCM or Scott. He is a great guy and the magazine is great. I don't believe so many of you don't get it. And I'm glad to see that he had some info about one of the companies. But it is hard to get rare images for us to see here because of all the reproductions happening. I was thrilled when some of the rare stuff turned up in that COTM. I didn't expect that some of the images would be shared with us. This isn't going to help us see rare stuff in the future. I do know that! I guess once you post something anything can happen with it and once it's posted and shared several times ownership probably becomes pretty hard to determine.
Of course some of the same guys who will be ripping me here are partially responsible for Ron Bettin not posting stuff here anymore. You can now see those pictures in PCM! Get a subscription!
chris

RTG: I'm hearing you about the inability to see rare stuff on here.
But let's be real, if I'm a collector wanting to protect my rare stuff from being copied, posting pics of it on any internet message forum is not high priority on my to do list for today.

I think this is going nowhere. I know Scott reads what is on here so hopefully a phone call will fix what needs to be fixed and put this to rest. Personally, I feel repo globes don't hurt the value of real globes as long as they are marked. I am not a big Scott fan, but in his defense, I don't think he meant to steal a photo without permisson either. Just sharing something in the magazine that alot of people would not ever get to see. My 2 cents and out.

Chris, call me. sent you an email. May need a favor for a backup plan.
337-208-6173 or I can call you....just need a number. I stay up till 11pm CST
thanks,

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Paddy
WTB Billups, Ride with Rose, Spar, Canal, Gulf Coast, and Galtex gas and Oil related items.

Hello:
Many of y'all know me, but for those who don't, I am Wayne Henderson, co-owner, senior editor and publisher of Petroleum Collectibles Monthly. In response to the issue about running the Split Second globe in last month's issue of PCM, I would like to make the following statement. For over 25 years of the more that 40 years I have been involved in our hobby, my primary scope of interest is the gathering of historical information and assembling the bits and pieces of information into a completed puzzle picture, then passing it openly back to the hobby in various formats including books, the magazine, and conversations with anyone who calls that I may be able to help. To this end I have assembled a collection of over 60,000 photographs, including over 25,000 photos and images of historic service stations. Copies of pictures that are passed around often end up here, and we try to discover the original source, but it is sometimes not possible. With the photo in question, we did have a photo of this exact globe, but it was of lesser quality and could not have been presented, and as such it has never appeared in our Discoveries column. In this column we have tried to feature every globe that has been discovered since the last printed globe books were completed over 10 years ago.
I read the showcase articles on oldgas.com regularly, but I believe this is my first posting ever. I support what Jim does with this site 100%, and wish I could contribute more, but have never been entirely comfortable with my ability in uploading material to any web site. Maybe I need to learn how, and in doing so would gladly contribute in any way that I can.
Anyway, since we already had a photo of this globe (though unusable), and I had traced it to one of its original home stations, I thought everyone would benefit from seeing the two pictures together. We used this photo, and the Nitro, and gave proper credit to the source as is required by good manners and copyright law, when using the photos in an educational manner. I am sorry that anyone took offense, but my goals of preserving the history of petroleum marketing and educating the fellow members in this hobby are best served when anyone can put any two pieces of a puzzle together.
If someone will explain how, I will upload the photo of the station to go with the globe, so that those who are interested but don't get PCM will be able to make the connection on this rare item and its origin.

Wayne Henderson

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Thanks for the explanation Wayne.
"We used this photo, and the Nitro, and gave proper credit to the source as is required by good manners and copyright law, when using the photos in an educational manner."
I guess there probably is a fair use claim that can be made when using a photo in an "educational manner" if you quote the source. I apologize if I caused you or the magazine any problem. I just wanted to know what is right. I would wish that in the future you try to contact the person who posted the picture. Even if you don't have to I think it would be a good thing to do. I think you will find that most of us would love to have our items in PCM.
Thanks.
chris

Howdy:
Here is the picture of the station in this discussion. It was located on East Colfax Avenue between Hudson St and Grape St in Denver, CO. There is a large Diamond Shamrock station (maybe Valero, now), today. Split Second Gas was sold by Red Dot Oil Company, and it is entirely likely that the globe previously posed on oldgas.com appears in this photo.


Wayne Henderson

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Thanks, Wayne, for taking the time to post your explanation of what was going on. PCM publishes information that expands the knowledge and enjoyment of the hobby. Hope to see you here more often.

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Jim "Oldgas" Potts
Your host and moderator

I want to add to Jim's thank-you and hope Wayne posts more often as most of use on this site already realize he is a wealth of great information and would be an asset to the site. Keep posting Wayne!!!!!!!!!!!!