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Hi Guys,

Is this an original or a repro?

Thanks...Kevin

oops here is the item number 200105833099

I say real.

Checked out his feedback & he had 2 of um see item #
200093603616

not an expert opinion here but i gotta go with repro... that puppy lacks age of any sort... just smells to me....

Dick Bennett pointed out this post to me. I purchased the last one of these and, after getting it, I feel it is the real deal. I've seen and owned enough signs over the past 15 years that I think I usually can spot a fake
Ray

Thanks for the input guys. Does anybody know how to tell the difference between the sign that Ray bought(and the one on ebay that I questioned) and these two that ended not too long ago?

260110570369

200100036635

I know the first one says Desperate Sign Co. and is a repro...but wouldn't that be easy enough to remove by lght sanding and a clearcoat...the reason that I mention this is that the sign in question from my original post looks just too shiney.

Thoughts on this??

Kevin

I gotta believe that all these Oilzum tin signs are repops. Sure they're embossed but there are just too many of them turning up at one time and in mint condition. That should set off alarm bells!! IMO

not to start world war three... but got to go with pablo on this one..... they reek of repro...

I decided after reading your posts over many years to join the site today and attack the problems with repros. This Oilzum sign, as most of them are, is a repro.

One the companies we own is a metal fab company. In 1999 I had one of our partners in another venture pull some strings and we sent 15 signs, to inlcude an Oilzum, identical to this sign, to Gaco for a paint chip date test and then on to the UW's metalurgical department to test the metal for dating also. No surprises. The tin was made around the early 80's and its chemical composition indicated it had been manufactured in Korea and the paint was automotive paint from that same period. My people were convinced the condition of the tin precluded it from being an original sign, and they were right. And if anyone tells you tin does not dislor or age they are full of it. Additionally, tin signs always have other chemical materials that ozidize, showing age. Another way of quick testing signs is using blacklight, for newer paint will flouresce under black light. One way to help identify touchups, restorations or repros

Now here was the real eye opener. One of the signs we sent was a Richlube oval with the rocket. Metal came back from the 1910's and the paint from the 50's. Furthermore, we had bought the sign from a family friend who had been hanging it in his barn since the early 60's, where I saw it as a kid. That's right, it was a fake. We had a weird feeling it wasn't real, one of the reasons being one of our shop supers believed the grommets were not from the correct period of time and the porcelin felt just a bit not right. He was semi retired 65 yr old who had worked metal all his life. Nothing to pin anything on, yet all evidence was saying its real. Date tests showed it wasn't.

The lesson is trust your gut. Your usually right. Secondly, any true collector should not encourage any repros. Its destroys the trust in the market and downline, that fun repro we raved about, in 30-40 years from now is being passed off as real. Just what we are seeing today. Whether your a limited budget collector or a museum quality collector, no one is served by having to debate if an item is real or fake. Debate value, not authenticity.

Hi, welcome to the site, and thanks for your input. Ed

hiltd,
Thanks for all the good info. Unmarked repops are the scourge of the hobby and anything that helps to identify them is appreciated.

Questions...

Re: "One of the signs we sent was a Richlube oval with the rocket. Metal came back from the 1910's and the paint from the 50's."

How can the very old metal be explained and the disparity in the dates? Presumably repops would use new metal. Also, paint from the 1950's? I wasn't aware that repops were made in that time frame. I've always assumed that repops first started in the 1970's.

Re: "Metal came back from the 1910's and the paint from the 50's....and the porcelin felt just a bit not right."

Was the Richlube sign painted tin or porcelain? If so, can lab tests identify the year for either paint or porcelain??

Re: "The lesson is trust your gut. Your usually right."

Not always true. Note that Ray Seider, experienced collector, stated in this thread "I purchased the last one of these and, after getting it, I feel it is the real deal. I've seen and owned enough signs over the past 15 years that I think I usually can spot a fake"

Enough said. We can all get fooled if not very careful.

Keep on posting!!

Paul

ONCE AGAIN !

REPOS SUCK !!!

QUESTIONS

no questions from me mr. tee..... been sayin' that for years...

Sorry to get back so late. Was at collector car auction all day. To answer the question posed. The Richlube sign was done in the 50's. Someone had pulled old heavy flat stock metal and used the paint of the times and made a repro. Why? Who knows. The man we got the sign from had been hanging it in his barn from about 62' on. We actually acquired it from him in 99' People sometimes do repros because they have skill and like to mimic the originals. Its not always about money. Point is this. Everyone would say, hey, that sign was hanging in a barn going back to the early 60's, ergo its real! The test proved that repros go back a long ways and age of sign does not make it real.

We had doubts about the sign, even though it was clearly an old sign with lineage I knew of personally going back 4 decades, so we tested it and my people were proven right. Trust your guts. If it smells wrong it probably is. As for these recent Oilzums, their fake, period.

Oh sorry, missed answering this question. The sign was porcelin. And yes, chemical testing can prove age, many cases manufacturer, type of paint, etc. As another example. No run of metal is ever the same. If you want to build a display using exposed metal, you have to be careful to use metal from the same skid or roll run. If not, it can look very different if looked at close up. Furthermore, texture, look, feel, oxidation rate, etc varies on the manufacturer, raw material used and the plant itself. Every run of material in any manufacturing process is usually specially inspected and documented and they are never the same.

Finally my point is this. Repros can fool all of us and it can be an incredibly expensive mistake. I now listen to others and if someone I trust doubts the integrity of a sign and they make a good argument, I pass.

Finally, knockoffs are dangerous. A lot of collectors have incredible skills and make killer cans and signs. Their great and everyone likes looking at them, including me. But now we are seeing these same collectors having to intervene and inform a seller or buyer that by the way that great looking listed "original" is one he made five years ago. Kudos for being an honest guy. But what happens when that institutional memory disappears? Or what about the items they never see to correct? I have no answers other then to say all repros should boldy state on them they are repros.

Thanks for all of the input on this...I will spend my hard earned money elsewhere.

Kevin

emailed seller... got this back.

"I know that the reproductions say Desperate Sign Works Co. in the lower right hand corner, this one does not. But I am not 100% sure of the originality. I have had 4 of these over the years that I have bought, sold and traded and have never been told this was a reproduction."

sadly this sign just sold for 620.00 on ebay.


[This message has been edited by kmann (edited 05-06-2007).]

Private listing..........

Want to mention another variable in sign creation not mentioned in this post that I have learned. It adds another possible explanation to the 1910 metal w/ 1950's paint.

I don't doubt there were repros made even as far back as the 1940's. Probably more in the way of Fantasy Pieces. Like hiltd said,
Just because someone had the time and talent to do so. Or maybe to show a potential employer their capability.

As a Driver for one of the Major Oil Companies here in the Midwest, I have had a number of older gentlemen come up to me over the years and talk about making signs for our company many, years ago.
Here are some things I learned from them.

As Oil Companies experienced growth into new areas they would use different sign companies to create their signs. Many were small independent ones, an oil company representative would contract with.
Many variables would come into play.
They may only need to make a couple or 2 dozen.
Size, shape and graphics would be given, but it would be up to the sign maker to source his materials to make them. The price and availability of metal often made it more economical for the sign maker to reuse the metal from an old sign, than make an entire new one.
WWII of course would see a shortage of metal so sign makers would have to scrounge for scrap or reuse metal from old signs or other items to produce new ones.
Shipping signs long distance was more costly during the early years as opposed to local production.

During the late 1950's the Ohio Oil company was looking for a new logo that was easier to reproduce. They found it hard to keep uniformity among signs made by different companies with the Phidippides character and other graphics in their logo.
In 1962 the company changed it's name to Marathon in Celebration of it's 75th anniversary. They adopted the M sign we use today, but, different logos were used as "experiments" prior to that.
I have seen two different experimental logos they used in the late 1950's.

Just my 2¢ worth. I am sure other companies did the same.

Anyone know an old sign maker from the late 1940's or early 1950's? Bet he could tell us things we haven't though of.
Chuck

Chuck: "As Oil Companies experienced growth into new areas they would use different sign companies to create their signs. Many were small independent ones, an oil company representative would contract with."

I agree with this idea...for smaller oil companies. By the end of the 1930's, most major oil companies had standardized logos, colors and graphics for signage. Advertising purchases of all kinds had to conform to established company guidelines. Therefore, I think your theory would apply mainly to smaller companies with less rigid standards. IMO