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#113973 Mon Jun 18 2007 05:30 AM
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http://cgi.ebay.com/OLD-PORCELAIN-ENAMEL...1QQcmdZViewItem Everyone be sure and don't get carried away by the cheap price, look at the back of this one.

#113974 Mon Jun 18 2007 09:12 AM
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Watch this guy! He had several fake signs on last week and some of them brought big money for what they were.
Bob

#113975 Mon Jun 18 2007 10:44 AM
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I see where this seller is from Argentina, might be where some of the bogus items are being manufactured. Cheap costs and very high profits. We'll see if ebay does investagate. If so, I'm sure we will see him setting up shop within a few hours or days under a new name.


Looking for Tide Water/ Tide Water-Associated/ Tidewater items
#113976 Tue Jun 19 2007 03:14 PM
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How can you turn this guy into ebay without jumping thru hoops. I tried to turn him in on the page where he is selling a fake Lincoln telephone sign. Ebay wouldn't accept it unless I was the buyer or bidder. He's putting fake signs on at a pretty steady rate now.
Bob

#113977 Tue Jun 19 2007 04:37 PM
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Nothing makes me want to bid on a sign like a way-too-low buy-it-now and a seller from Argentina...

Wes

#113978 Tue Jun 19 2007 10:28 PM
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I cannot say with certainty that this sign is a reproduction, however, here is a telltale sign that phony aging techniques may have been used to make the sign more attractive to buyers.

For one, if you look at the back of the sign it has uniform rust. This is indicative of phony aging techniques whereby acids and other chemicals will produce immediate rust. Why would an "old" sign produce recent rust? What would cause the back of this sign to suddenly have surface rust, but lack pitting or deep rust depressions?

It is curious how there are no significant depressions, fading, holes, scratches or pitting. Genuinely old signs do not fade or rust evenly, like this one. In a genuinely old sign the exterior conditions that could cause this kind of rust would affect the sign at varying rates. A sign that would age naturally would show uneven wear and rust, whereas this sign shows uniform rust.



I bet if you beadblasted the rust from this sign you would see absolutely no pitting. What we see here is surface rust that appears to have occured only very recently.

I also do not see any fade in the artwork on the face of the sign, yet all of this rust indicates that this sign would have been exposed to the elements.

Lastly, note how the sign holes are perfectly cylindrical, yet the surrounding porcelain has been chipped. If this sign was truly used, then how is it so that the surrounding porcelain was chipped (indicating that it was hung), yet the holes are perfectly uniform.

Oh, and one more thing:

Does anyone have a picture of an original? The font that is used at the very bottom of the sign which reads "Jenney Manufacturing CO. Boston" does not look right. This is a modern style font (post 1960) and I'm curious if it is authentic to what was used originally. Can anyone confirm?

Anyhow, there are enough warning signs here to fore-warn potential buyers that this might be a fake.

[This message has been edited by chadhaas (edited 06-20-2007).]


Chad Haas
Chief Gearhead
VAULT�
12725 SW Millikan Way, Suite 300
Beaverton, OR 97005-1687
http://www.vaultgarage.com
http://www.facebook.com/VaultGarage
#113979 Wed Jun 20 2007 08:20 AM
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I am not understanding what you are saying about the holes being round???

Do you use oversize screws?? Put them in Blindfolded?? Pull used signs off with a crowbar???

Here is my opinion of how signs should be mounted. I hold it on the wall, make sure it is level, the pencil around the hole edge. Now drill in the CENTRE of the pencilled ring and through the middle of the hole the fastener goes. Now people installing signs on contract should have a template..even easier.

If there is no grommet in the hole and you tighten the fastener too much the porcelain will generally chip, but would not be very noticeable with the fastener in place.

The impression I am getting from your post is that if the hole int screwed up it cant be real, is that what you mean???

I am not saying these signs are real or not nor am I saying they are aged or not, just stating that the holes dont have to get dammaged on installation.(chipping excluded)

#113980 Wed Jun 20 2007 02:09 PM
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Did anyone check out ALL his signs both past and present? They nearly ALL have that same rust to the back...and chipping around the mount holes. No matter the age. I've found several hundred porcelain signs in my travels (in the wild...not from a reseller)and I could not come up with two that match that look.Most have had very nice condition to the backs even when the front looks bad...his all have bad comdition backs??? The backs are protected for the most part when mounted. Go for them....I won't be ANY competition.
Jim


Wanted: Wadhams - Bartles - O'neils - Items
#113981 Wed Jun 20 2007 02:15 PM
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Guys...I went to look at collection this weekend, hopefully getting it consigned to my February sale. There was an Esso Elephant, a Gargoyle Rochester oval, & a smallish horizontal Goodyear....all 3 were identical in color, shelving, weight, & there wasn't any porcelain on the back. These were in a collection of about 500 signs. They stuck out like a sore thumb. I warned the owner, he agreed that they were probably not on the level and we decided that it was best not to run thru my sale. BUT...just like so many others, he believed they were real because he had seen others just like them bring $500+ at other reputable auctions. WE CANNOT JUDGE A SIGN'S AUTHENTICITY BY WHO ELSE HAS ONE OR BY WHO ELSE HAS SOLD ONE!!

#113982 Wed Jun 20 2007 08:41 PM
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dodogas - This is a small matter that doesn't deserve this much discussion, but but since you asked.

Examine the top hole on this sign:



Now look at the same sign hole on the back.

There is not the slightest indication that this sign was ever hung.

So I ask the question: How do you chip and mare that much porcelain away from the face and do absolutely no damage whatsoever to the hole?

Allow me an analogy: If the paint on a car door was chipped and mared near the lock, a reasonable person would conclude that the lock should show similar wear. If however, the lock was prestine but scratches surrounding the entire lock were evident, would that make sense?

Whatever damaged the sign to cause the porcelain to chip away likely should have caused ever the SLIGHTEST amount of damage to the sign hole, but that does not appear to be the case here.

[This message has been edited by chadhaas (edited 06-20-2007).]


Chad Haas
Chief Gearhead
VAULT�
12725 SW Millikan Way, Suite 300
Beaverton, OR 97005-1687
http://www.vaultgarage.com
http://www.facebook.com/VaultGarage
#113983 Thu Jun 21 2007 08:36 AM
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If you nailed a sign to a wall, and removed it later with vise-grips to get the nailhead away from the sign it would look like that. If you use a small enough headed nail like 2 inch or inch and a half, it would bend without bending the steel of the sign.

I dont think anyone would install original pump sign with a nail, but it could easily happen down the road, especially if the person did not realize its value and just wanted to hang it up.

At times men were paid to remove signs, sometimes a whole building covered in them like a country store. Now I got to ask, if they were put away for whatever reason and stored flat, would the backs not rust if they got wet??.

I dont really see any reason for the hole to get damaged other than using an oversize fastener or trying to pull up on the sign to remove a fastener, curious what everyone else thinks??

You got to ask yourself though if a sign is in a foreign country. were they used there?? Could get brought there by a collector or someone moving there, but would not exist in large quantity.

#113984 Thu Jun 21 2007 10:13 AM
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The back of the sign is what gives the sign away.

As a test, clean raw metal with MEK to clean the sign surface and wash with water. Then submerse the sign in a 3% solution of Hydrochloric Acid bath for 15 minutes or so. Rinse the sign completely. Sprinkle salt evenly over the surface. If you have rust particles from another donor piece of metal this will help accelerate the rusting process.

Pour Hydrogen Peroxide into a spray bottle and spray the salt/fillings so that this surface is wet from the Peroxide solution. Allow the surface to dry and repeat until you achieve the desire effect.

The acid bath solution can be overwhelming so you will want to do this in a well ventilated area and wear protective gloves and eye protection.

The end result will achieve the same appearance that is shown on this sign example.


Chad Haas
Chief Gearhead
VAULT�
12725 SW Millikan Way, Suite 300
Beaverton, OR 97005-1687
http://www.vaultgarage.com
http://www.facebook.com/VaultGarage

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