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Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13493
Mon Feb 12 2007 04:47 PM
Mon Feb 12 2007 04:47 PM
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jkyocom Online content OP
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I have owned visibles, clocks,76,36-B,A-38,
62,300,39,541,646,766,966...you name it, but for some reason I had always been fond of the little Bowser Oil Pump I found at the bottom of a pile of visibles....kinda like Charlie Brown's Christmas Tree, it was rough and some of the parts were missing.But I took it home and left the visibles.

Over the years I have collected parts from other Bowser pumps, ones I thought would be correct. Thanks to Jack's book and Gulfiend's pump,I have been able to see that the parts were the correct ones; wood handle, light sockets, and spout.Possibly door handle too. Information on a pump this old and obscure doesn't come easy.

After several hours of searching the patent
site, I finally found the patent for the cabinet of this pump, at least the top...The patent was 1917 for the sheet metal pump and 1911 for the cast model. What the actual production or selling dates would have been, I don't know.

The 241 Red Sentry could have been used both as an oil pump or as a gasoline pump...it has a setting for a pint, and a spout inside the housing.... it was first designed with two


The 245 Bowser came as either a gasoline pump
or an oil pump....two versions....same cabinet. This is the gasoline version drawing. Nowhere on the description is Bowser mentioned that I found. Different inventor also.
Pat. applied for 1917

more to come....


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Please use For Sale forums to sell

Please - NO offers to Buy or Sell in this forum category

Statements such as, "I'm thinking about selling this." are considered an offer to sell.
Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13494
Mon Feb 12 2007 04:52 PM
Mon Feb 12 2007 04:52 PM
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Here is the oil and gas versions


[This message has been edited by jkyocom (edited 02-12-2007).]

[This message has been edited by jkyocom (edited 02-12-2007).]


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Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13495
Mon Feb 12 2007 05:04 PM
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The inventors were different...but one was for "guts" and one was for Body, in these . I have not found the 241 body pat. The pump guts should be off same patent for 241 and 245. The 245 should be a later pump than the 241.....consecutivly thinking...kinda like the 40,60,70 Wayne or the 34,36,39 Tokheim
Just wanted to share my findings.
Thanks...Joe

[This message has been edited by jkyocom (edited 02-12-2007).]


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Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13496
Mon Feb 12 2007 06:00 PM
Mon Feb 12 2007 06:00 PM
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Topeka, Kansas USA
travis_towle Offline
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I will have to make notes on this one. Very cool info. I guess that sometimes a little extra searching can get you the correct info.

You are like the king of the Bowser!
Would that make me the king of the Fry? lol


Very cool.


Travis E. Towle
Topeka, Kansas

785-357-1004

Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13497
Mon Feb 12 2007 07:14 PM
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No just got a king size headache trying to figure this Mystery out....I never new what the cut # for this Bowser was untill I saw it in Jack's book.But I had a handle cast from (mabey)an original,off a gasoline version that was 18 yrs ago. I never saw the pump.This is my "keeper" and if it takes a few more years to find the rest of the right parts....This year should be it's 90 yr birthday.....Mabey I'll have it done by 2017

Hmmm....King Bowser....he was always messin with a plumber....but his name was Mario.

Got any BENJAMIN lamp sockets Travis???
All the Fry pumps I have had , had them.
Thanks......Joe

I HAVE A CURVED BOWSER CUT #63 ID TAG IF ANYONE NEEDS IT.


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Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13498
Tue Feb 13 2007 01:27 PM
Tue Feb 13 2007 01:27 PM
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Topeka, Kansas USA
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I have one of the lamp sockets - and am trying to get them reproduced as I type.

Fun Fun!


Travis E. Towle
Topeka, Kansas

785-357-1004

Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13499
Tue Feb 13 2007 05:55 PM
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jkyocom Online content OP
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Something came to me today about this pump.
The pat. date is 1917....the fact that we were in a war at the time may be the reason for the sheet metal version. Also they may not have started producing these pumps untill after 1918.
Just a theory.
Joe


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Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13500
Tue Feb 13 2007 06:13 PM
Tue Feb 13 2007 06:13 PM
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Santa Paula, Calif
Dick Bennett Offline
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Your pump could have been made ANYTIME AFTER the last Pat. date. There is something on your pump that was Pat. on that date. Bowser was still in business in 1965.

I have a REAL DOG POUND! 38+ BOWSER's. Starting with 2 Salesmans Sample #32'S thru a #275 1938 ALZACK pump light attachment.
db

Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13501
Tue Feb 13 2007 06:18 PM
Tue Feb 13 2007 06:18 PM
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Raleigh, North Carolina
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...neat info, Joe, nice detective work, glad I could help out - I'll have to print it the patent drawings and your post for future reference...


Looking for better Gulf items: signs, globes, cans and paper - especially porcelain Gulf flanges, and Gulf A-38 & A-62 ad glass...
Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13502
Tue Feb 13 2007 08:32 PM
Tue Feb 13 2007 08:32 PM
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Grants Pass, OR, USA
bruzer75 Offline
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I am no expert on patent dates but my buddy told me that a patent date was good for 20 years. So you could figure an item that had a patent date could have been made within a 20 year period of that date. Anybody know for sure?
Mike

Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13503
Thu Feb 15 2007 03:29 PM
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jkyocom Online content OP
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That is the whole mystery behind this pump Dick......the pat. dates on the sheet metal version "ID Tag" are the pat dates for the cast RED Sentry.1911 1914.
These dates pre-date the patent date of this pump. My brother has a Cast Sentry and the dates on his are 1911-1914-1916.The actuall pat. date is 1917 for the sheet metal pump...I can only speculate that is why this pump is thought of as older or closer kin to the Sentry. I thought it was older because of the dates on mine.I am not dissapointed, I am elated that I finally found the info I had been searching for.Took 20 yrs to find out! I always thought that they were too different in style(241/245)to be twins.I would like to find out just when they started manufacturing this pump...1916-1918 I would guess.
Have you ever seen an oil version of this pump? Or do you have one in the dog pen???
I have a curved Bowser cut # 63 tag if you need it. Was that the wood box pump????

This post is not a question of how old this pump is...it is about the 245 oil pump.It is not companion to 241 as believed...it is companion to 245? gas pump.Nor did it come out in 1910.All the documentation should speak for itself...but now another question remains...
If the oil pump is a cut # 245, is the gas pump a cut # 245???????
Joe


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Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13504
Thu Feb 15 2007 03:32 PM
Thu Feb 15 2007 03:32 PM
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D'Oh

[This message has been edited by jkyocom (edited 02-15-2007).]


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Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13505
Thu Feb 15 2007 06:17 PM
Thu Feb 15 2007 06:17 PM
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Santa Paula, Calif
Dick Bennett Offline
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Joe,
I don't belive this pump was dedicated for gas or oil. It could be used for any liquid [kerosene, gasolene, oil, paint & paint thinner, ink, etc.]. The basic pump had a SPICKET [for swing spout use], other options were:
HOSE
LIGHT BONNET w/wo GLOBE HOLDER
5gal. VISIBLE attachment.
db

Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13506
Thu Feb 15 2007 07:04 PM
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jkyocom Online content OP
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Dick, are you refering to the 241 or 245?
Finding info on the 241 was easy.

Sure, as long as the parts will not be affected by product you can pump anything out of it...You can pump water through a gas pump ...but it will tear it up.
Jack has my pump listed as an oil pump, the other version I was using "gas" as a distinction in the difference between the two 245 pumps in this post.
Mine (245) was made souly for the purpose of pumping a fluid into a container, whereas Gulfeind's pump was made to pump fluid through a hose. Pedestle guts and control guts are different....cabinet is the same.

Ever seen a "cow" meter...It meters molasses to go into feed.
Joe


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Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13507
Thu Feb 15 2007 08:03 PM
Thu Feb 15 2007 08:03 PM
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Santa Paula, Calif
Dick Bennett Offline
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Joe,
Refering to the 245.
This is my Gasoline version.

Just looked for a Cut or Fig. #, could not find either. Last Pat. date is '14 [this pump was made anytime after that].

It IS possible that the Castiron & Sheetmetal versions have the same Fig. # for gasoline. I have Bob Lee's BOWSER book printed in 1978, but it list both versions as having the same #.

Hopefully Jack or Ron Scobie have more info. for these pumps.

Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13508
Thu Feb 15 2007 10:29 PM
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Is that the Original ID tag??? I think I see what you mean...the sheet metal "gas"version took the place and # of the 241 cast version, and the oil pump was still the 245?
Did I get that right?
241 RS-cast... 241 RS-sheet metal?

Mabey the reason the patent dates on the ID tag are wrong is because the patent dates are for guts only...since someone else held the patent for the cabinet.
But I cannot see this pump being desinged by an individual, going into production by a pump company without applying for a patent first.Would you let that happen?
That would mean these pumps probably would not have been produced untill patent was applied for....1917

Since we were in a war, metal... was in short supply .. steel and iron.You could have made 2.5 sheet metal pumps out of the iron it took to make one cast model.

SO....the two pumps in this post would be 241 (1917) RED SENTRY and 245 (1917) PUMP ??
and the pat. dates are for guts.1911-1914.

This would make the most sense of all.If that is the original tag on your "gas" pump.
Can we at least call mine an oil pump???
Joe


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Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13509
Fri Feb 16 2007 07:03 AM
Fri Feb 16 2007 07:03 AM
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Santa Paula, Calif
Dick Bennett Offline
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SURE.
A pump for small amounts of liquids.
db

Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13510
Fri Feb 16 2007 10:31 AM
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jkyocom Online content OP
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Dick, does your door handle look like this??
... And is that the original ID Tag??
Joe


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Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13511
Fri Feb 16 2007 04:59 PM
Fri Feb 16 2007 04:59 PM
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Santa Paula, Calif
Dick Bennett Offline
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Joe,
The tag is original, repainted.

Your door handle is correct.
db

Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13512
Sat Feb 17 2007 06:44 AM
Sat Feb 17 2007 06:44 AM
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jkyocom Online content OP
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I have restored a lot of pumps..and tags....that tag looks too good to be original..resto looks to good..who painted it..... MERLIN???
Let's see close up of the ser #.


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Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13513
Sat Feb 17 2007 08:12 AM
Sat Feb 17 2007 08:12 AM
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Hugo, MN, USA
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I made that tag years ago if any other collectors need one. It's anodized aluminum with black printing.
Bob Lee Miklues might be the best one to answer the questions about this pump. He wrote his Bowser book in 1978. I know that he had BOXES of glass plate negatives from the factory.
Ron Scobie

[This message has been edited by Ron Scobie (edited 02-17-2007).]

[This message has been edited by Ron Scobie (edited 02-17-2007).]


Ron Scobie
http://www.gaspump.com or
rscobie(TheAtSymbol)gaspump.com
Phone - Six five one-653-6503
Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13514
Sat Feb 17 2007 01:15 PM
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jkyocom Online content OP
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How might I find him ????

Years ago I bought a set of access panels
for the bottom....the sheet metal one .I got them from Bob Bardwell....it was a limited run and I had to place order. Did you make those, Ron.....it was over 15 yrs ago.

I guess the main question on this pump is:
If my pump is 245 what is Dick's??


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Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13515
Sat Feb 17 2007 04:27 PM
Sat Feb 17 2007 04:27 PM
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Hugo, MN, USA
Ron Scobie Offline
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I spoke with Bob and he prefers you write him at-
Bob Lee
4416 Raymond
Dearborn Heights, MI 48125

P.S. I didn't make the panels you are referring to.


Ron Scobie
http://www.gaspump.com or
rscobie(TheAtSymbol)gaspump.com
Phone - Six five one-653-6503
Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13516
Sat Feb 17 2007 05:11 PM
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Dick Bennett Offline
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ORIGINAL BRASS TAG. I RE-PAINTED IT.
db

Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13517
Sat Feb 17 2007 05:20 PM
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jkyocom Online content OP
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Thanks Ron,
How Did you do it Dick ?
I have seen your can magic, will the same magic work on my tag?...it has a few waves.


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Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13518
Sat Feb 17 2007 05:56 PM
Sat Feb 17 2007 05:56 PM
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Dick Bennett Offline
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Don't know, all I can do is try. My tag didn't have any damage except for loss of paint.
db

Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13519
Sat Feb 17 2007 06:09 PM
Sat Feb 17 2007 06:09 PM
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On the plains of Colorado
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IF...... The tag is in good condition........ A light coat of paint, over the tag. When dry, (a day or so)put it face down, on 600 grit wet & dry paper with lots of water. DO NOT LAY THE TAG DOWN, AND TRY TO SAND IT. Thats a good way to ruin the effect. Lightly, make figure eight patterns with the tag. Just a few. Then check it. Repeat as needed. Too much sanding will destroy the tag. If you do it right, you will only polish the letters. Thats what you want......


Anything Chevron
[Linked Image]
I'd rather be flying.....
Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13520
Sun Feb 18 2007 08:04 AM
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The brass tag dosen't have much (relief?) left.I have done several others like you suggested but this would be a tough one to come out looking good. My tag has only a large BOWSER in the center of the tag, different design than Dick's or the one Ron has.Gulfiends pump is the same design as mine ,but his is aluminum.If there was a repro of this design I would get one and stamp my #'s into it and keep the old one.
You can barely read this one.
Does anyone know if they make a "cannned airbrush" for fine jobs, I only need once, to try on this tag.It has been 10 yrs since I have restored a pump .I'm sure new products have come out since then.
Thanks Joe


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Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13521
Sun Feb 18 2007 09:54 AM
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...a friend of mine airbrushes motorcycle gas tanks, and uses 'Liquid Frisket', painting the areas he does NOT want to airbrush...after the airbrushed paint dries, he rubs off the frisket...it's latex based, maybe that would work for the ID tags?


Looking for better Gulf items: signs, globes, cans and paper - especially porcelain Gulf flanges, and Gulf A-38 & A-62 ad glass...
Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13522
Sat Mar 17 2007 12:07 PM
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gulfiend! Offline
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...Joe, here are the long-promised photos of my Bowser pump:

(1) this is the top of the pump, showing the hole in the cap where the conduit attaches to the pump:



(2) this is the dome, showing where the conduit would attach, and the cast piece at the top that was curved to go around the conduit pipe:



(3) this is the nozzle:



(4) this is the wood handle on the crank:



...more to follow...


Looking for better Gulf items: signs, globes, cans and paper - especially porcelain Gulf flanges, and Gulf A-38 & A-62 ad glass...
Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13523
Sat Mar 17 2007 12:08 PM
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Joe...

...here are the long-promised photos of the details on my Bowser that you asked about...

(1) this is the top of the pump, showing the hole in the cap, and the threads in the top of the pump:



(2) this is the dome, showing where the conduit would attach (the small hole on the bottom of what I guess to be the junction box - you can see how the cast piece in front was designed to curve around the conduit:



(3) this is the nozzle:



(4) this is the wood handle on the crank:



[This message has been edited by gulfiend! (edited 03-17-2007).]


Looking for better Gulf items: signs, globes, cans and paper - especially porcelain Gulf flanges, and Gulf A-38 & A-62 ad glass...
Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13524
Sat Mar 17 2007 12:09 PM
Sat Mar 17 2007 12:09 PM
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(5) this is the crank handle:



(6) this is the name plate & id tag:



(7) this is the access plate, near the base:



(8) this is the pump opened, with the arrow indicating the location of Photo 1:



(9)...and this shows the length of the pipe 'tower', from where it appears coming out of the cap on the pump, to where it disappears going into the dome hardware, it's 19 5/8"...the arrow shows the location of Photo 2...

...Hope this helps!! Sorry about the wait...


Looking for better Gulf items: signs, globes, cans and paper - especially porcelain Gulf flanges, and Gulf A-38 & A-62 ad glass...
Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13525
Sat Mar 17 2007 07:23 PM
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jkyocom Online content OP
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Yes, it helps a lot...I have some questions though and some info.
Inside the red circle do you have brass indicator tags...I can't tell....mine has 3
1/2 gallon, 1qt, 1pt...you should have 4 since you have 4 stops....the 4th is inside the black circle...That is also where the calibration for the gallon was done.
There is a hole in the screw and the strange shaped plate to put a lead wire seal through.
This is to show that the calibration has not been tampered with.

What is the "door" looking thing in the blue circle and what is it's purpose???

My ID tag looks just like that one but it is brass, and in terrible shape.

Bob Lee wrote me back and said he would see if he had any info on these pumps
Thanks
Joe

Another question...where is the light switch??/
If you copied the ID tag onto paper do you think I could get one made at a place that makes trophies?

[This message has been edited by jkyocom (edited 03-17-2007).]


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Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13526
Sat Aug 25 2007 05:04 AM
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jkyocom  Online Content OP
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,290
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I brought this back up for Hardy's Garage


Veeder Root Rebuilds.....since 1987
Veeder Root Identification CD
Gas Pump Clock Repair
jkyocom@bellsouth.net
Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13527
Sun Aug 26 2007 07:32 AM
Sun Aug 26 2007 07:32 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 127
paducah ky
B
briansbodyshop Offline
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briansbodyshop  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 127
paducah ky
Joe,How do you go about stamping the serial numbers onto the tag?? You know Im new to this hobby,so I havent gotten to that stage yet.. Thanks..


WANTED: TOKHEIM NOZZLES
Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins #13528
Sun Aug 26 2007 08:30 AM
Sun Aug 26 2007 08:30 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,290
GA
jkyocom Online content OP
Veteran Member
jkyocom  Online Content OP
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,290
GA
They make # and letter punches.....
They look like a peice of square stock with a # or letter on the end..
You have to buy them as sets which can be pricey...0-9 , A-Z
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/52/Bowser_No_Background.png
Another ugly Bowser

[This message has been edited by jkyocom (edited 08-26-2007).]


Veeder Root Rebuilds.....since 1987
Veeder Root Identification CD
Gas Pump Clock Repair
jkyocom@bellsouth.net
Re: Mistake of the Sentry.....245 Gas/Oil twins [Re: jkyocom] #700911
Wed Dec 20 2017 11:59 AM
Wed Dec 20 2017 11:59 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,290
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jkyocom Online content OP
Veteran Member
jkyocom  Online Content OP
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,290
GA
Patent #1,274,039. WILL TAKE YOU STRAIGHT TO IT.
This was not consigned for Bowser
1917-1918

https://patents.google.com/patent/US1274039A/en

Last edited by jkyocom; Wed Dec 20 2017 12:04 PM.

Veeder Root Rebuilds.....since 1987
Veeder Root Identification CD
Gas Pump Clock Repair
jkyocom@bellsouth.net
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