Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums General Petroliana Discussion Complete Newb with some questions

Hello New Forum folks. I am almost completely in the dark when it comes to old gas and memorabilia, the only thing I am sure of, is that I dig old stuff. Having said that, let me get to why I came here...

I am starting a Homestead and farm with my family. While looking into alternative energy sources, we discovered how relatively simple it is to make Ethanol, and it got me thinking about giving it a go. Then I took that thought a couple steps further- If I'm making my own fuel, I need to be able to store it and pump it, right? What would be cooler than an antique gas pump? If you're going to do something, at least try and do it in style

Talking to Sandy at Gas Pump Hobbyist in Massachusetts answered some of the questions I had, but I'm hoping there are folks here that can help with the rest of them.

1)Can an antique pump work with Ethanol? According to Sandy, yes. The hoses would have to be upgraded though. No biggie there.

2)Talking with pump restorers,I discovered that while they say the pump is completely restored and working, they don't come with the guts to make it functional. Any ideas on who to talk to about this, and how much it will run... Balpark guesstimation would work. I don't have any specific pump in mind yet, but it will likely be something from the 40's.

3)And IF I were to sell my own fuel, I can also assume that any pump with a major petroleum company logo is just begging for a call from an attorney at some point. The logical step, would be to come up with my own name and graphics, and I am very capable there. But instead, I would rather go authentic nostalgia, and find a name that has gone under. Not knowing much, I looked at Polly and Dino Sinclair, since I had never heard of them before. A little research showed they are still very active. So could you give me some ideas of who is no longer around?

Any sort of feedback or ideas is appreciated, and thanks for letting me ramble on.

Hi Captain,
Welcome to Oldgas.com Shop Talk.

Making your own fuel is one thing, but making larger quantities and selling it brings in complications. You'll have to be certain to conform to fire, safety and environmental rules or you'll risk big problems with the law.

Check with a local member of PEI, Petroleum Equipment Institute at http://www.pei.org/
for help with fire, safety and environmental compliance.

Check with Ark Petroleum on the Web at
http://www.benfordfueling.com/
for which pump models will have available replacement functional parts.

Best of luck on using a vintage pump. Sounds like a cool idea.

First of all, welcome to Oldgas. Your want for an old pump is what brings most of us here. There are many old pumps, that still have their internal parts, so that shouldnt be a problem. The cost of the pump, will be determined by what pump you buy. A Tokheim 39, can be purchased for much less than a Wayne 60. As far as pumping/selling fuel, thats another story.

For a company name/logo, like you said, thats just begging for a call from an attorney. Its likely that many of the old companies, who have been bought up, have sold rights to their names also. Though, making up your own name, and a logo, with a nostalgiac (sp?) flair, should be easy enough.

Take some time, and do a bit of reasearch. You might just find that you want to collect the "Petro" artifacts, and leave the Ethanol business to somebody else.

Welcome to Old Gas

First off, thanks for the warm welcome. And thank you oldgas for those links, I'll be calling them tomorrow, as well as the EPA. I am hoping to avoid any issues, which is why I'm looking into the feasibility of commercial sales. I for one, get a real attitude whenever I have to fill up, specially when the gas execs are getting multi million and multi billion dollar retirement packages. But that is another story altogether.

Thunder, the pump I would end up with will be determined by price and style. I really like the older visible pumps like the 20's Hayes Wichita/Blue Crown, the Tokheim 850 from the 30's, and several of the Deco style from the 40's.Judging from priced I've seen, I'll likely go with the Deco style for lower price, and hopefully, parts availability.

As for the name, I'd like the added nostalgia with real history, lest history be forgotten. You folks could likely come up with a dozen names off the top of your head... in your sleep That is all I'm looking for there, a gentle nudge in the right direction. I could spend a week online, and still miss a hundred old gas companies that I never knew existed. Most of them are still in existence under different names, but without a place to start, I don't have a chance.

And I would love to collect old pumps, but I don't have the time, the money, or the room. Getting one pump would be more than enough to make me happy, and satisfy the craving for stylish old stuff. If I can make a few bucks making and pumping gas to a handful of folk at the same time from my old pump, that would be even better

Insurance, liability, state/county permits, federal/state/county taxes, etc etc.
GOOD LUCK

Yeah, tell me about it

Don't forget to have your pump certified by whatever agency handles the weights and measures in your state. If you don't, they will fine you for everything you might have made as a profit plus whatever else they feel like, times however many years it took them to discover your operation, plus anything else they can think of.

Good luck and welcome to an interesting hobby-

Kurt

Welcome to oldgas. Your idea of pumping ethanol through an antique pump is cool!

As a former service station owner I can tell you that trying to do it commercially is a tall endeavor, especially in light of increasing EPA, state, and local codes.

You'll have regulations on two ends. One as a producer and another as a distributor. I can't even imagine the hoops you'll have to jump through just to comply with the regulations to produce it. I don't know how it is where you live, but in Ohio if you sell gas I believe it must be from an uderground tank. Agricultural/personal use can use above ground. Which means tank monitoring equipment, soil samples, tank license fees, etc.. In the next town over from me there is even a minimum amount of fuel you must pump yearly just to keep your license to sell fuel.

My guess is financially speaking you'll be much farther ahead making enough for your own use and staying under the radar.

Welcome aboard.

there will be isssues w/ the computer....
MUST SHOW AND BE ABLE TO CALCULATE AT ACTUAL PRICE PER GALLON

Ok, I'm gonna work backwards up this list-

jkyocom, what kind of issues will there be, and how can the be resolved? Let me rephrase that... who can fix that for me?

Ohio Oil, I am particularly glad to hear from you. You brought up some of the more critical details that would have gone over my head. When I got the idea to use a antique gas pump over a 55 gallon drum and hand pump, I decided to go with a regulation underground tank. Of course, this is all without the exact knowledge of cost, and specific details regarding the regulations there. From what I have been able to find, the EPA is demanding a double system- you need to have a container around your container, and another container around the pipes. But, I just got off the phone with a tank vendor who assures me that above ground tanks are the way to go. Anything you can add to that would be greatly appreciated. As far as a minimum amount to be sold... that in itself may cripple a commercial effort, if the fees and taxes don't get me first.

Kurt, I remember well the pump inspector from my days as a pump jockey. And I also know there are a lot of places that don't get inspected nearly often enough. But thanks for reminding me to stay above board on that. So many details, it is easy to forget one.

If you are looking for a pump system that will hold up to dispensing ethanol, I would say use Tokheim.
But an update will be needed for the meter so it has the stainless cylinders and teflon piston cups....898-k Tokheim meter is what you will need.
Wayne 2 piston meters #4, #5, have roller bearings and teflon cups and stanless sleeves.
You could use the best of different manufacurers components and build a frankenstein guts system.
As far as I know ethanol is water soluable so there could be rusting issues if there is not daily usage.

A Bowser pumping unit is about the smallest I know of and would have the smallest area internally to try to rust. The Wayne METER is aluminum and stainless and is the smallest, so you could have lots of room, a bowser or G&B air eliminator could be used.....since a BENNETT 76 computer uses the "LEG" mounts under the computer, a modern computer will bolt up w/ no modification.
The sight glasses will probably need to be omitted by LAW.
More than likely a 2 part face would have to be made since crankbacks and later 2000 models have different heads and faces will not interchange.
A later computer face and a part over and around it like picture mat.
Then there will still be an issue of controll ....how is the computer going to be reset
Veeder Root makes an electric reset but there will have to be a way to shut off power to deter theft.

You would have to have a switch on the lever under the nozzle to energize the electric reset, and use the crank to turn reset on & off....up or down for open and close circuit.
There is a biz in Cartersville that can supply you with a rebuilt, calibrated meter.

Capt.: I believe underground vs. above ground tanks is a state not federal mandate. You'll need to check with Georgia, pretty sure in Ohio it's underground for commercial.


Not trying to bore you, but...small time operations that are not directly owned/controlled by oil companies are called jobbers. Mom and pop jobbers are dropping by the wayside because they cannot move enough product to stay viable given all the requirements, insurances, fees, and taxes. Larger jobbers are gobbling them up leaving two major players in the business...Big Oil companies and large jobbers.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but you would be bucking the trend to pull off a mom and pop operation producing and distributing your own product.

Good luck to you, it's the American spirit to dream and accomplish great things.

jkyocom, again, thanks for your insight. The model specifics will save me a ton of time. About the site glass, are they common, or are there certain models that don't have them? And why would they have to be removed? Also, what exactly would necessitate changing the face, a modern computer?

This country was founded by people who shouted "Buck the system"!

As far as the tank, the vender said the above grounds would be acceptable, but I'll check with the Fire Marshall and EPA about that too.

I agree..that's why I said it's the American spirit to dream and accomplish. I genuinely wish you success.

Getting the ethanol produced and setting up a small working gas station would be enough to make me happy, whether or not I go commercial. If I could actually get enough people locally to buy from me, save them a little green, and make the world a little better, that would be excellent. Sticking it to the oil people is a bonus

Welcome Captain,

Worthy undertaking.There is some really good advice up there.One brand name that may be long gone is TANKAR.Also,their storage tanks may have been above ground if you can resolve that issue.My reference library is at the shop,so I'm just guessing.Sone of the other guys may altrady know what became of them.

Thank you Old Iron, I'll start looking up Tankar. On a side note, how is the seasonal weather out in New Mexico? If we win the HGTV Dream Home, it is in N.M., and we might have to think about relocating

Welcome Captain,
"""we discovered how relatively simple it is to make Ethanol,""

can you explain/describe the above satement a bit, wondering why everyone doesn't do it? thx

Minuteman, it is exactly the same as running a still for moonshine. The only differences are, you first have to apply to the ATF with exact still details, and follow their regulated guidelines. Once the alcohol is distilled, you simply need to add either a chemical agent or 2 gallons of gas per 55 gallons, rendering it non consumable by humans. The reason most folk don't do it, is that it is a lot of hoops to jump through, and a bit of work. Not exactly rocket science though, and possible for most folk to do themselves.

If you would like to know more about gas pumps I would suggest you order a copy of my "Gas Pump Identification (and value) Book." It identifies over 1900 gas pumps with their current value. The book can be ordered right here on this website by clicking on the "BOOKSTORE" at the top of the page. Any profit from the sale of the book helps support this website.

In the meantime, I have probably pictured over 1000 gas pumps on my website: www.petrocollect.com which is the largest website devoted to this hobby (over 5000 images).
Go to the Gas Pump literature section.

Jack Sim

I am by far not an expert, but I can tell you what I have learned by working at a large corn refinery and actually over seeing the entire process. We waste nothing, #1. Everything gets used on a piece of corn in our plant, which stretches roughly 1.5 miles along the Mississippi. If you were just making ethanol, you would have a massive amount of waste product. You will have to have a process to mill, steep, seperate, mature(chemicals), evaporate, and mix/holding. Our company quit making ethanol several years ago due to lost revenue. I can tell you that your insurance and license fees would outweight the cost that you might save on this. Also that you would have to be in compliance with the clean air act on your discharge from making it and what it produces when it gets used. Yes, anyone can do this on thier stovetop, more or less. Basically that is/was how moonshine was invented. The processes are mostly all the same except for the few final steps. The down side to that is it would take you a week to make enough gas for a couple days.

Here in my area, a few Ethanol plants were proposed 5 or so years ago. Only one got off the "drawing board", because they couldn't get the proper permits, in a timely manner. The one that did get started, was finished this last spring. The corporation that was going to operate it, went under before it was finished. So the "plant" was sold to cover debts. No permits had been issued to manufacture any product. I'm sure once you do more research on you proposal you will find the same thing. Making enough for yourself, no real problems.... Selling product to the public, real BIG problems, with FEDS, STATE, LOCAL Governments and YOUR neighbors. As you will need to rezone part of your "homestead" to manufacturing. If you do decide to go ahead, I wish you all the luck in the world.

It would be up to the fire marshall in your state/county if sight glasses would be approved, maybe have to be weights and measures approved too.
Faces have to show price, older ones only go as far as 99.9/10 and would need the extra price window.....and most computers that would be legal would be 4 wheel bank instead of 3.
Then there might be mandatory leak detection....a containment barrier for the tank, monitering wells, and all kinds of stuff I am not aware of since I have not been in the service field for yrs.
Above ground tanks would not require all that cr*p. Then the air eliminator would not need to be used either.

This pump has a newer type computer in it and uses a 2 part face system.
A smaller face behind the big white surround, this would be a way to overcome the face delima for a pump that would have taken a crankback. You would have to have a 4 price wheel face plate though.

A #300 Tokheim could be less costly to set up...it uses bottom mounts for the computer too.
You will pay near $500.00+ for a NEW 9.99 9/10 computer from Veeder Root....I have seen them on ebay...that is WITHOUT the electronic reset, pulsers for your readout equipment, ect.

jkyocom, I must have had a brainfart, the four digit counter never even occurred to me... duh!

Bob, I don't have any neighbors full time, just occasional hunters during Deer Season for at least a mile in any direction. I don't remember exactly off the top of my head, but I'm sure we would still need to have a licensed facility for the production from the ATF, whether we went commercial or not. Trimming an acre of our current 25 wouldn't be much at all, and we would do that anyways.

If it looks like it might work out, I'll go commercial. But originally, this started as just a cool idea to have our own gas station and garage. Going commercial is just hypothetically expanding on that idea.

Chadrock, I'd really be interested in what you did with the rest of the corn, that has been on my mind too. Most of the stalk would be mulched into a compost pile, and maybe used in a methane digester. But what about the cob? I've heard they burn pretty good, and you can make pipes from them... but that is all I can come up with.

Jack, I'm certainly going to try and look through your book, but I am by no means a collector of Petroliana. I'm afraid your book my change that, and I don't think I could afford to have this as a hobby

Somehow I think I knew I should have gone to the books before mentioning a company name.Oh well,maybe next time.

From what I can find out TANKAR stopped operating gas stations in the late 70's but may well be still in business involved in other business ventures under the same name.CAREFUL THERE!

The most useful reference book I can recommend is GUIDE TO GASOLINE LOGOS by Wayne and Scott.That's a good starting point from which to do further research.

I'm no lawyer.My recommendation is to consult with a real one before you use any of those real logos.

As to NM weather,it depends on where you are.NM ranges from low desert to above timberline.Here in ABQ I would just say it's moderate;enough seasonal change to make it interesting without fearing the heat of summer or dreading the cold of winter.I'll take that.LOL.

LOL! Silly me, I grew up in Florida, and moved to south central Ga thinking it wouldn't be much different. This has been the coldest winter they've had in years. I haven't been able to wear my Christmas shorts and flip flops

Back on topic... You did no wrong mentioning TANKAR, I did a simple search, and could only find mention of them in a few court cases back in the 40's. Most other companies I can at least find where they joined with so-and-so company, or are still active. Keep tossing them out there!

Welcome aboard Capt. I believe SOUTHFLORIDAGAS completely overhauled an old pump to pump regular gas. Can't find the post when I searched for it but I remember reading about it. Sounded like a cool idea. Good luck.
Mike

well, when in Rome .......I am closer to Rome than I am Athens.....LOL
This is GA call it "ETH&ALL" ...LOL
you know like all those other words we have like
"theysa" "momen'em" "fixenta" "guzzinta"
You might have to spell it "ETH-N-ALL"....... so us can redit

ROFL! I know what you mean. I'm from the south, so at least I understand what you're saying most of the time. My poor wife is a Yankee, and completely lost.She also stands out when she talks, whereas I can almost blend in

PS, I'm only about 45 minutes south of Athens, near Sandersville.

I am 1 hr South of ROME !!!! LOL

The Yocom side is from PA.
ON a trip there once , my brother, his wife and I stopped at a gas station to fill up.
The attendant asked my brother Y'OIL OK?....my brother responded with "yeah we're fine".....I broke out laughing and said " LEE...He wanted to know if your oil is OK"....Lee thought he said
Y'All OK.....LOL
the look on the attendants face was priceless !!!! LOL

Capt Quirk,

I am also new to Old Gas. What you're proposing to do sounds very interesting. Please keep us posted on your progress.

Like many other grandiose plans, it will likely fall short of the big dream. But, I'll have a gas station with a bay and antique pump on property, with home brewed gas.

CQ In Washington State if you have an outside tank it must be in a containment area that can hold 110% of the largest tanks capacity if it has a roof over it, or 125% if there is no roof to allow for precipitation.

What are the chances of getting around some of the pumping and metering problems by using a Visible pump instead of a Computer pump.
Seems like there is some place in Idaho that is still using Visible pumps to sell to the public.

HUskyBob, I like the visibles, but they are pricey, and I can only imagine parts getting harder to find. Plus, I really don't understand how they work, I've only seen them in pictures

As far as pumping, I assume you are talking about the actual internal pump mechanical parts I mentioned before? Talking with the tank vendor yesterday, he mentioned using a fuel pump on the tank that would push fuel though the the meter inside the pump, turning it into a dispenser that will measure. Did that make sense to you? I'm a bit fuzzy on the terms and whatnot, so I apologize for being confusing.

son of Ethyl-- Welcome aboard Old Gas! Theres several of us from North Dakota on this site. Look foreward to meeting you one day! I'm in Devils Lake!

We have an ethanol plant here... 2 as a matter in fact and i know the "waste" is pure protean and goes to a local grain place which then ships it some where. I think i got that right. LOL

he is talking about a submerged unit inside the tank
and a meter and computer inside the cabinet,,,,that classifies the unit/cabinet as a dispenser NOT a pump.
motor & pump are in the tank.$$$$$$$$$

Waste is a lot more than just protein. It takes a ton of water to make ethanol and all of that water has to go somewhere besides the ground, per OSHA. The white part of the corn is the part of the corn that you are after and the rest is pretty much waste. There is a small bit that you will gain product from but not much. Where I currently work, we go through anywhere between 400,000 and 500,000 bushel a day. We make everything from syrup to dried goods, not to mention pharmaceutical needs. Take for instance, the sweetener that you would put in a glass of tea or corn syrup for beer, soda, or candy. (Not to mention everything else that Americans eat) All of our waste water gets reused in the process and evaporated. What amount doesn’t get reused goes to our own waste water treatment plant to be reprocessed and used as clean water, which is a massive amount. Not to mention that you final product has to be starch negative and corn is full of starch. The hull of the corn and protein does go to our feed plant where we mix it with several filter compounds, waste water, and syrup. This is sold as a wet feed and truck pick it up daily. I was also wondering how you plan on filtering this and removing the color from your final product. I have tried several times to make shine on my stove top and have succeeded several times. But tell you that along with this looks a lot easier on paper than it really is. I wish you all the best luck.

CHAD T

I should tell you I have failed more than I have succeeded when making shine, for myself ofcourse and not for resale to anyone. Also it take 21 lbs. of corn to produce 1 gallon of ethanol and three times as much water. We get all of our corn via barge or truck and it all has been dried to the proper moisture content and has no cobs.

Chadrock, the figures I have been able to come up with are 130 bushels per acre, 56lbs per bushel. Since we'll have livestock, some of that will go into feed. The rest of the details, I'm still working on it