Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums General Petroliana Discussion How warm is the gas you have been getting?

The trailer you are seeing on the station lot is called a "Remediation Unit" it is brought in to remove gasoline from the ground water under the station.

Stations today have "Test Wells" drilled into the ground in various places around the station. (Look for a 12" - 16" steel plate on the drive with a black triangle that says "Monitor Well")
These are checked periodically.
If you look around as your are driving, you will see these units on many old station lots. They are usually in the back somewhat out of site. Some are actual small buildings and not trailers and look like a small storage shed. They will all have a vent pipe sticking out somewhere.

If a presence of gas is detected, the wells are hooked together with a pipe and that water circulated thru a unit in the trailer separating the gas from the water. I don't know the exact process for doing it, but am sure if you Google "Remediation well" on the net, it will get you some info.

Once you can identify these units, you may see them setting on the lots of other business's as well. They are a sure "Clue" that a gas station once stood on that lot. We have an Arby's here in Speedway that has one. I faintly remember that over 20 years ago there was an old gas station that once stood there. Old Stations had Steel tanks and many of them leaked underground for years. It can take years for those units to clean up from those leaks.

*********

As for the warmer gas. Many stations today have such a high sales rate for product in their tanks, the gas does not have time to cool to underground temps.
When I load a load at the terminal. My gallons are temperature corrected at the time of loading. Stations today in my area also temperature correct for product being sold. Computer monitors make it a lot easier for this to happen. I think before they used a base standard for underground temps.
There was an article in a trucking magazine last year, where a chain of Truck Stops was caught "Heating" their diesel. That would probably only pay off on a large volume like a truck stop. Will see if I can find the article.
Chuck

Next time you go to your station. Look on the gas pump. You should see a small sticker that says Dept of Weights and Measures. I don't recall if they put the date on them. I will have to check.

I run across these people from time to time testing stations. In Indy I think it is yearly. I have to wait until they are done before I can unload.

Look for orange cones set up around the station fills with the lids removed, and a small trailer or van, next to one of the pumps. The inspectors I see around here are very friendly, and will probably answer any questions you might have.
Chuck

This is from Dec. 14, 2006. A lawsuit claiming heated fuel in 7 states.
http://www.commondreams.org/news2006/1214-14.htm

Here is an article that explains removal of gas and contaminants from ground water under a station.
http://oceanworld.tamu.edu/resources/oceanography-book/groundwaterremediation.html

[This message has been edited by Gaspedler (edited 09-08-2007).]

I am quite aware of weights and measures, and their pratices ...I have even had to go out and calibrate pumps and change meters when W/M shut down pumps or complete stations for improper calibration.
When I built pumps, I built meters, pumping units, complete pumps, and some service work.
I am familiar with the different leak detection,submerged pumps, the entire system.
I'm no expert but I am familiar with station setup.

That is why, a building on a station lot venting exhaust gasses looked extremly suspicious. What you decribed makes sense,
The station is about 1/8 ml from the city water supply.
But I have still noticed that even in the winter the flow through the nozzle is warmer than it used to be, even at other stations.

There was a co. here in GA that got in trouble for loading the truck then leaving it out in the sun, then delivering. I seem to recall something about the truck has to be covered, like under an awning when sitting full of fuel. I may be mistaken,it was a while back.

I read an artical online that explained.. that the original reason for the 10ths is to offset thermal expansion.

jkyocom, I didn't mean to imply that you would mistake gasoline fumes for exhaust gases. I'm pretty sure if most of us saw what looked like that amount of gasoline fumes venting into the air near a gas station, we'd keep drivin'...

At the refineries that I'm familiar with, gasoline and gasoline blend components leave the production units and enter tankage at roughly 100 degrees Fahrenheit - or more, in summer, maybe a bit less in winter here in the GWN...
The trend lately is to minimize the amount of fuel in storage, so it gets shipped quick these days, so even in winter, it doesn't have time to sit in the tank and cool down for long...
The bulk storage tanks sit in the sun in the tank farms, some do have small trim coolers to keep temperatures below 130 or so, and heaters to keep the tank above 85 or so in winter.

A lot of the newer service stations have their storage tanks located in below-ground concrete containment vaults, just like your basement. As opposed to being in contact with the earth, as the old direct-buried tanks were, modern storage tanks reside in these vaults which are power-vented, so the vaults themselves are at roughly ambient temperature...

And yes, I've seen remediation wells on cleanup sites. But I'm not familar with anything that would vent exhaust gases, or much heat - the ones I've seen were run by electricity, the pumps and the separator.

Just my experience. Lots of people on this site will already know these things, this is for those less familiar with the subject! And things may be different in your neck of the woods.

As far as the original question, yes, I've noticed that gasoline is served warmer than it used to be. I vividly recall the tank on my motorcycle would be covered with condensation after a fillup with cold gas on a hot, humid day. But that was 30 years ago...

[This message has been edited by silent chief (edited 09-08-2007).]

Ok...so I am not totaly crazy then.
Just halfway!!!!!!
I knew the tanks were now fibreglass, but the containment system did not occure to me.
So it would insulate the product better than a steel tank in dirt....Sorry ,Mr.Exxon.!!!!
Here is a pic of what I am talking about.



The Blue roofed building in the bottom left, by the signs is the water treatment plant.

The blue dome on the trailer, I have seen venting gasses....maybe they were not hot.
Once again ...Sorry Mr. Exxon....but I have seen something venting from it, from the air being distorted. And as the pic shows, there are cuts in the concrete leading up to the building.I didn't look for the product lids
so the square ones there could be the wells you are talking about.The other cut leads to the island.
It must be there to monitor the ground water since the station is above the river.
I got out of the biz before all this junk was comming in.
But all of this looked suspect to me, like I said, if it was illegal it wouldn't be there.

So....if gas is transported, delivered, stored, and delivered into your tank at one temp., and stabilizes in your tank at a lower temp, you still get less.
So it still pays for the oil co.
You have to buy more often.

Does anyone know the calculations for temperature #'s and the volume expansion of gasoline?

I have the volumetric correction for gasoline listed as .00108 % per degree C/ .00060 % per degree F in my API manual. These are coefficients of expansion for a standard gasoline formulation compared to a standard volume of gasoline at a standard temperature of 15.5 degrees C/60 degrees F.

An example the formula would be (in SI units for the US members):

If a you have a cubic foot of gasoline at 60 degrees F, what would it's volume be at 70 degrees F?

60 + (the actual temp of the product X the coefficient of expansion) = A
so
60 + (70 X .00060) = A
60 + (.420) = A
A = 60.420

Then:
A x (.00060) = B
so
60.420 X .00060 = B
B = .0363

The new volume (D) = 1 + B
so

1 + .0363 = 1.0363

The new volume of a cubic foot of gasoline at 60 degrees F, if it was raised to 70 degrees F would be 1.0363 cubic feet.

If I've done the math right... always a question, for me...

so 3.6% change in volume per 10 degree swing.


[This message has been edited by silent chief (edited 09-08-2007).]

Daaaaaaang !!!! You re a lot better in math than I.!!!!!!!

Hi jkyocom, the pic shows a setup similiar to a site where my old company is currently remediating the ground water. The only thing different is they have a shed instead of a trailer. The cuts in the concrete leading to the island and tank field indicate lines that are feeding the seperator pump ground water and seperating the contaminates from the water. The water is returned to the ground(maybe not if near river, stream, lakes,or water plant) and the contamniates collected. I guess the contaminates(gas, diesel, waste oil) would need to vent in hot weather. My co. doesn't have the vent system but then again the shed is rather open. Contaminates are collected in a unsealed 55gal drum and siphoned off regularly by a waste hauler. Since we are located in Illinois the system only functions in the warm weather months. Have to shut down in early December. But Georgia would operate year round which may explain the trailer and larger collection system with venting. It appears the trailer is on the property line. This position would make sure they could monitor contaminates that may migrate offsite.

I doubt a company would "warm' the gas other than the methods like letting gas sit in a tanker longer than usual. Doesn't that driver have another load to deliver? Time is money.
A company operating in the cold winter states would most likely see a gain in the warmer months. The reverse is not the case however. Not sure why.
Everyone down the line gets a temperature adjustment except the end user. Even with the pumps calibrated correctly, the end user would still see a small loss that is unavoidable. Add all the small loses together and it can add up. Our company would purchase gas at the rack that I would consider "warm" but we would get a temp adjustment.For example, the bill of lading would show pulling a gross total of 8000 gallons but we would pay for net total 7920 gallons after the temp adjustment. Reason being is that once the gas is back in the tank it would cool. If you sell alot of gas it never has the chance of fully cooling.
Every summer our stations would show an overall underground overage. My job was to make sure the tanks and pumps were in compliance so an overage would be as much a problem as a shortage. The article listed by Gaspedler above states that companies never paid taxes on the overage. Most companies probably didn't but our company did.
Too many goverment agencies visiting our locations. In a given month Weights & Measures, State Fire Marshal, IEPA for Stage II could visit.
Long story short, from my experience, a gas station does not have to warm the gas to still come out ahead. Why bother. Too risky. Play by the book.

Reminds me of the other old belief that gas stations were "watering down the gas" Everyone knows you can't add water to gas. They don't mix (ok, except with alcohol but that leads to alcohol seperation which leads to worst damage to cars than just water). Gas stations were "watering down the octane". Years ago Citgo would sell "slop" with no octane to add to gas. 5% was considered OK to add to gas with 10% alcohol(boost octane back up) but some stations would add more. I don't think Citgo sells this product anymore. Never did like Citgo gas.
I'm sorry if it appears I am being defensive . I have been in the business for 24 years until the company sold last year. Can't make a living on 15 cent/gal gross margins. 15cents on $1 gas is great. 15 cents on $3.50 gas is apalling. And believe me that is what many dealers are dealing with.
I have heard many things said about gas stations over the years so I'm used to it. Just thought I would throw my 2 cents in.

Support Your Independent Dealers!!

wow, what an observation. I never thought about that, very cool! very informative. nice to know some people know. Thanks for the information.

I've also been enjoying this discussion. Does that collected "vapor" get recycled or re-refined in any way? Or is it considered toxic waste?

Liquid waste haulers would usually rerefine whereas solid waste haulers will incinerate or dump. But I'm sure there are exceptions to both.

There are two (2) "Bay" stations here which have in the last year put in strange apparatus on the side of each station that makes sort of high pitched noises. These are surrounded by a six foot chain link fence with the pieces put in so you can't see through. There is an "exhaust stack" sticking up with a "heat trail" coming from them on each one. Could these be some type of gas warmer? Joe, I remember when the guys from DOA/Ga. would come around to certify the pumps. They would act like NASA rocket scientist with all their measuring, testing and calibrating pumps. I've intentionally watched the new guys lately just pull up to an island, put out four orange cones, go inside and spend their time, then put new certified stickers on the pumps.

The new Wayne systems can be electronically
Calibrated without even opening the cabinet.

The stack is either venting vapor or hot gas.
It looked like hot gas to me.... after a closer inspection of the vent and after thinking about it....Since it is so close to the island it must be either a scrubber or a "spark arrestor" of some sort. There is what looks like fresh air intake to the right of the louvered grate.



It just seemed odd to me that about the same time the gas prices went up , they added a trailer to the lot....with gasses comming out the top and fresh cuts in the concrete, and a privacy fence, and noticing the gas felt warmer.
That could have been the shortness of product and the amount of demand, could be from always dumping smaller fresh warm shipments regularly..because I noticed it at more than one location..I mean c'mon guys we all know oil co.'s have done some very unscrupulouse things over the years.
Hmmmm.....Kerr-McGee....fuel rods.....ring a bell?????

Contact Maulder & Scully!!!! This sounds like an X-Files case to me!!!! LOL.