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#22513 - Tue Jan 10 2006 08:40 PM Where is this hobby headed?
besgar Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Fri Feb 20 2004
Loc: BEULAH CO
This is bound to be a controversial subject, but that is not my intention. This is just how I see it and if you dont agree I really dont care. There are some people in this hobby who really try and help this hobby, and then there are those who try and make an honest living in a hobby they enjoy. I have no problem with these people and am glad they are in our hobby. Then there are people out there that just want to make a buck, or want the power to control where things come from so they can get their cut. I dont know where some of our laws go wrong, but they have, and people, when given an opportunity will take advantage. It's a sad thing when this happens. If things continue in this direction there won't be anyone left to make the things we need for this hobby to carry on. I am a young collector, 31, and I know my generation is the minority in this hobby, and if things dont change we will be the last generation to have this hobby. These type of happenings really disgust me and that is bad for my hobby. I know there is not much I can do except for one thing, learn who is a help and who is a slime bucket, and only deal with them the helpful ones. It doesn't take long to see someones true colors if you look. If we all carry on our business this way we will hurt the only things they care about, and that is their wallet and egos. Like I said, this is what I believe and if you dont agree, so what, you aren't going to hurt my feelings. Just remember this when there are less and less vendors for stuff. Support the right guys, those who are helping promote the hobby, not monopolize it. You owe it to them for all they do for this hobby.
Brandon Esgar

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#22514 - Tue Jan 10 2006 10:54 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
RARIN TO GO Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Sat Aug 28 2004
Loc: Longmont, CO
Amen and ditto besgar. I'm feelin' what your saying and I have heard things recently that amaze me that not only can they be done but that people who claim to care about this hobby do regularly. Support the good guys and ...* Too bad we can't call 'em as we see them here without risk of suspension or expulsion because they deserve to be called out because if what I hear is true some do not really do business in the way I would say helps the hobby.
Just my 2.
chris

*I edited this post to remove a phase that refered to people in general but I did not want it to be mistaken as a comment directed at any specific person.

[This message has been edited by RARIN TO GO (edited 01-11-2006).]

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#22515 - Wed Jan 11 2006 12:39 AM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
sslick68 Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Mon Jan 24 2005
Loc: Rolla Mo
I am maybe the only one here asking this but could you elaborate on this a little more or define what your trying to get across to us??I always thought that the dealers were trying to make a fast honest buck?Just trying to understand you guys more,dont want to get involved in another heated topic of minds here but I think that were on the same page here??Ill wait for some replies before I speak up!

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#22516 - Wed Jan 11 2006 07:45 AM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
5 quart Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Sun Jul 06 2003
Loc: Stockton NJ USA
Hi Brandon- your post here is a little vague- could you be a bit more specific without nameing names-??? Not quite sure what you mean by control of where things come from so they can get their cut- This sounds like a great topic as long as we keep it under control- thanks don

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Wanted 5 quart cans
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[b] Wanted 5 quart cans -old speed equipment -1950-60s- Cad- Olds std shift parts - site at www.oilnspeed.com

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#22517 - Wed Jan 11 2006 08:00 AM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
scootdog Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Wed Jun 05 2002
Loc: Parker, CO USA
Just a guess but I have heard about oldgas members suing other members over artwork and copyrighting old images. I don't have the facts so I won't comment other then to say that we used to have to worry about images of new items getting in the wrong hands because a reproduction would be made and it would drive down the price of the original. Now we have to worry that the old image will be remade and copyrighted and any use of the image will be dealt with via a lawsuit...

With many of the old guard retiring from collecting and selling there collection there is a new and more aggressive breed of collector who are looking to profit from the hobby. While this is nothing new the fear of lawsuit's over artwork has me rethinking some pictures I have posted for others to see.

Lastly, I interpret what Brandon started here to mean that is this really what we want to be a part of? Lawsuits for every disagreement? No more handshake deals? What happened to a mans word?
_________________________
Scott
Wanted- Powerine and Powerlube items!

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#22518 - Wed Jan 11 2006 08:07 AM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
philmccauley Online   content
Veteran Member

Registered: Thu Jul 26 2001
Loc: Bardstown, KY USA
I too am a young collector of 35 years of age. I have been collecting for about 5 years and love the hunt and catch when you get it. I do not know exactly what Brandon is referring to but like everything else there are always people out there to steal, copy, forge, and cheat to make money. You have to be the best judge of the matter and trust your gut. I have met many great and honest people collecting and hope to keep meeting more. I figure that when it is time for my stuff to go, I will pass on to people I know that will enjoy it.

Phil
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Thanks, Phil
_________________________________________________
Looking for any old pumps, or nice 5 gallon cans.

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#22519 - Wed Jan 11 2006 08:14 AM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
RARIN TO GO Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Sat Aug 28 2004
Loc: Longmont, CO
I do not know for sure what Brandon is referring to but my post is directly related to the issue of copyrighting something that was really designed as much as hundred years ago by someone else and just because someone reproduces that image I don't understand how they can have anymore right to its use now than anyone else. The people who reproduce these items had no involvement in their original design and yet some how they can copyright it?
I'm still looking into this stuff to try to find out what parts are true and if I feel it's wrong I'll be saying it with my wallet.
Chris

[This message has been edited by RARIN TO GO (edited 01-11-2006).]

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#22520 - Wed Jan 11 2006 08:50 AM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
roger cherry Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Thu Jul 04 2002
Loc: Collierville, Tn
I am not going to say much here but I feel sueing someone in a hobby that is supposed to be fun is going to do nothing but kill it. I was sued by a bunch of rich people who thought they could bully me a couple of years ago and they found out wrong. I am now in litigation over something similar and will not comment on it. There are other ways to handle things other than litigation. The only people who win are lawyers. If the hobby is to survive, then poeple need to grow up and quit acting childish. I have made great attempts at controlling what I post on this site and since I have, I noticed that things go alot smoother for me. My advice is that everyone try and get along, there is so much more to life than your hobby and there are many great FRIENDS to be made out here in collecting. If someone turns on you, then just ignore them and leave them alone. There reputation will get around. I want to say that most everyone that post on this site I respect and admire and even though I have not met alot of you in person, I feel I know you. Everyone, this is a hot topic, so lets play easy, OK!!!

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#22521 - Wed Jan 11 2006 09:43 AM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
Seth Robbins Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Thu Dec 21 2000
Loc: Guthrie, OK. 73044
I think I have a feel for where Brandon's coming from....it's getting to be a pretty scary situation. I have a license with every major oil company & General Motors and there are times when I get frustrated seeing things "boot-legged" when I am writing those big checks every quarter for royalties....BUT....I've never blown the whistle because truthfully, it would't help me any and most guys are just having fun and really aren't competing with me. This other issue of copyrighting the early logos that are now public domain, that I believe you guys are referring to, is definitely a 'sticky' situation and one I am monitoring closely. In my situation, I keep an attorney on retainer just to help me stay out of trouble and to translate what's right and what's wrong. I think most everybody is good at their core, but when pride gets involved and feelings get hurt...LOOK OUT!!!

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#22522 - Wed Jan 11 2006 10:13 AM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
besgar Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Fri Feb 20 2004
Loc: BEULAH CO
This was not intended to single anyone person out, however if you feel it about you than it probally is. Our concience will be the judge.
Brandon

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#22523 - Wed Jan 11 2006 11:22 AM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
scootdog Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Wed Jun 05 2002
Loc: Parker, CO USA
Anyone have expertise in this area that would care to share how these older images are being copyrighted? How about some of you graphics guys, doc, pogo, tway, mike?
_________________________
Scott
Wanted- Powerine and Powerlube items!

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#22524 - Wed Jan 11 2006 12:06 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
T-way Online   content
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Jul 24 2002
Loc: Riley, MI, USA
Hello everyone.

Since I’m not aware of anybody else involved in a law suit regarding Copyright Infringement – and this post seems to be directed at me - I figured I might as well reply so everyone can hear my side of the story.

There seems to be quite a bit of opinion on this law suit. This surprises me. I say that, because as of this date no one on this site, or in the Petrol hobby – and I mean no one – has bothered to contact me to inquire about the law suit I am pursuing against my former business partners.

Since I have not been talking to anyone about the suit, I will have to assume that the information that is out in the Petrolania community is being disseminated by the Defendant(s) in the suit. I feel that everyone should have the opportunity to hear both sides of the argument before making an informed opinion

While I can’t give you all the information while the suit is in litigation, I can tell you the images in question and give a brief rundown on Copyrighting an image along with my reasons for doing so.

The suit is for Copyright Infringement on 9 separate images:
Michigan Maid
Time Gas
Fyre-Drop Gasoline
Washington Chief Gasoline
Montana Chief Gasoline
Idaho Chief Gasoline
Oregon Chief Gasoline
Red Indian Gasoline
& PDQ Petrol

All of these images are copyrighted to me personally. All the Registration Numbers are posted on our web site under the image itself. You can go to the Library of Congress, Copyright Search Page and look up the Copyright information on any of these images by plugging in the Registration Number ( www.copyright.gov/records/cohm.html ).

Out of the nine images listed above, only three of them are direct reproductions of old original lens artwork. This includes the Michigan Maid, PDQ Petrol and the Fyre-Drop images. All are of images, that in original versions, no more than 10 or so examples exist in collections today.

The copyrights issued only cover the image listed and variations of those images that take from the original registered art. I.E. the Fyre-Drop copyright is for the black background version only. The copyright does not cover any of the other versions of lens art the company used.

The other six images are ‘fantasy’ images created by myself using period-correct reference from the various companies. These are ‘brand new original art’ and have nothing to do with any original lens designs.

--------------------------------------------

Let’s review the Copyright process.

Copyrights are used to protect visual arts and images. These are defined by Copyright Law as: “ . . . pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including 2-dimensional and 3-dimensional works of fine, graphic, and applied art.”

While it is true that an artist’s work is covered by Copyright as soon as it is ‘published’, it is always a good idea to physically copyright an image for legal protection.

In order to receive a Copyright on an image(s) the artist needs to submit an application and a fee, along with two color representations of the image.

I want to stress that this is an APPLICATION for Copyright protection. You can not copyright an image if it is already copyrighted by another person or corporation. You can register a copyright for images that have expired.

Once the form is received at the Copyright Office, the request is investigated by a researcher. IF the image is not currently covered by an existing Copyright, the applicant is issued the ‘rights’ to the image and a Registration Number. If the image is currently under a Copyright by another individual or corporation, the application is denied and a letter is sent stating that to the applicant.

If you have any further concerns on Copyright issues, feel free to review the Copyright information on the United States Copyright Office web page ( http://www.copyright.gov/ ).

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Now let me explain why I wanted Copyright protection on these images.

I produce, thru T-way’s Graphic F/X, Inc., limited edition globe lenses for you, the collector and petroleum enthusiast. I also supply decals and ad glass for those of you who desire to ‘restore’ a pump in a ‘brand’ not currently available thru other vendors.

I spend time tracking down reference, original items, actual lenses and other forms of reference to create or recreate the artwork required to produce these lenses/decals/etc. There can be substantial time involved in the research phase. Once the information is collected, I then spend hours creating the artwork necessary for production.

After the art is completed, the copyright process itself can take up to 5 months to complete.

There are also costs involved in the actual production of the lenses, decal and ad glass, plus shipping and storage costs. Not to mention the costs associated with the creation and maintenance of the web site.

We also guarantee that the images we produce will be limited to no more than 30 sets of lenses.

Without the protection of a copyright on the image, there is nothing to stop anyone from ‘borrowing’ the artwork and producing their own versions of our products. Thereby reducing the value of our product(s) – and the value of our customer’s purchases.

Therefore, we register our images to protect our investment. We only officially register those images that we have plans on producing as limited edition runs of lenses.

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Everyone deals with copyrights daily. Whether or not they actually notice it.

If you have purchased a Pontiac CAPCO globe from any of the vendors – you paid a licensing fee indirectly to General Motors. If you purchased ANY Harley Davidson item, you paid a licensing fee. All the restaurants you eat at, the hotels you stay at, and the cars you drive have registered copyrights on their respective logos.

Even the reproduction neon GM signs discussed in another post on this site are licensed by GM. Fees were paid to General Motors for the rights to produce those signs.

It’s a fact of life - and a fact of law. You are not allowed to infringe on another’s intellectual property. Not for photographs, DVD’s, CD’s, software, etc. It’s all protected by copyright.

No one seems to have a problem with the gentleman in Canada that holds the copyright to one of the Red Indian images. He has had to pursue legal remedies against infringement of his rights numerous times. And no one had a problem with the Gilmore lenses that were produced by Mike Slama under an agreement with the original copyright holders. The copyright holders reserved the rights of approval on the artwork in that instance.

If you have stayed with me to this point, I thank you for letting me express my reasons for the actions I have been forced to take. If my former business partners had just respected my copyrights in the first place, none of this would have been necessary.

Feel free to post your views on this issue. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I promise you I will not be offended. Or, drop me an e-mail if you would like to discuss this with me directly.

Jim Treadway


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www.T-waysGraphics.com

[This message has been edited by T-way (edited 01-11-2006).]
_________________________


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#22525 - Wed Jan 11 2006 12:22 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
scootdog Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Wed Jun 05 2002
Loc: Parker, CO USA
Tway- I have no problem with you fantasy lenses but I have a HUGE problem with you copyrighting the real images so that nobody can do the same research and come up with similar artwork. Why squat on the images?Where did you get the artwork to create yours from? Here at oldgas? off the net? This a huge concern for our oldgas community to know that you are copyrighting the images that you DO NOT OWN originals of. Are we safe to post pictures that you can see?

Let me be more direct. I have a door with an bearcat image that I will be reproducing for globes and decals and will be selling at cost to anyone who wants them. However what is going to stop you from stealing my image and recreating the artwork, copyrighting, creating globes and then suing me for my own artwork?
_________________________
Scott
Wanted- Powerine and Powerlube items!

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#22526 - Wed Jan 11 2006 12:31 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
kmann Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Tue Aug 26 2003
Loc: new york
am i to believe that whoever gets to the copyright office first wins ???.. interesting topic to say the least...

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#22527 - Wed Jan 11 2006 12:38 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
thermactor Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Apr 27 2005
Loc: Decatur, IL
I must say that I find this news disappointing.

If I'm reading this correctly, you can just go out there, find old advertising images that someone created 80 years ago, directly copy them, and then pay a fee and get the rights to them?

What if I go and start copyrighting every image that I can find where the copyright has expired, the artist has died, etc? Then NOBODY could use those images, ever, or I could sue their pants off.

So now, if anyone wants the cool black background Fyre-Drop globe as a repro, they're SOL, because they didn't get one of the 10 that you made?

Of course it costs you money to do the work that you do. It costs me money to fix up gas pumps too. It costs everyone money to do everything that they do, for that matter. I don't feel that that's a MORAL justification for copyrighting your copies. I suppose I can see copyrighting fantasy pieces, but originals?

It might be technically legal, sure. Lots of terrible things are legal. Prostitution is legal in some states. Does that make it right?

I think it's plain bad for the hobby. If all of the original old images get copyrighted, where am I going to get a repro of something I want to use on a pump? You state the protection of limited edition numbers as your main motivation. That right there says to me that it's all about the money, because customers pay you a premium for limited production items. If production is limited, I'll never get a Fyre-Drop repro globe, even if I'm trying to restore some old pump that originally had one. I darn sure can't afford an original.

How far is it going to go? Can I copyright a pieces of stainless trim for a gas pump as a sculpture, and be the sole provider of that piece of trim, provided nobody currently has rights to it?

Joking aside, I think what you've done is terrible for the hobby.

Wes

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