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Re: Where is this hobby headed? #22528
Wed Jan 11 2006 11:45 AM
Wed Jan 11 2006 11:45 AM
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gilbert, az 85298
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LarryIvy Offline
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I have refrained from posting in this forum on opinion items for some time now but must make an exception in this case. I've been restoring pumps for 20+ years and use and enjoy the sources of parts to aid in my restorations.
My message is to Jim and anyone else thinking along these lines. As far as artwork for fantasy or custom items, I could care less and do not want to become involved in an argument who owns the UNIQUE artwork. It appears that Jim feels he has the right to own OLD ORIGINAL ARTWORK that is redrawn by him ie: The Fyre drop lenses. If that is your stance, you have sold me the last item I will buy and I will encourage my fellow hobbiest to do the same. As already stated, I will do my talking with my wallet.

Larry Ivy
Premopetrol


larry ivy
Please use For Sale forums to sell

Please - NO offers to Buy or Sell in this forum category

Statements such as, "I'm thinking about selling this." are considered an offer to sell.
Re: Where is this hobby headed? #22529
Wed Jan 11 2006 11:51 AM
Wed Jan 11 2006 11:51 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,371
Riley, MI, USA
T-way Offline
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Scootdog:

My reference came from many areas. Auctions, books, actual lenses in peoples collections, items I own, etc.

I've stated this before in previous posts: Owning an original lens or decal or sign does not give you the copyrights to the image. The Copyright Office issues Copyrights. All you own is the item itself.

Anyone can create new art of vintage gasoline logos and send in an application for a copyright. But if the image is currently copyrighted, they will not receive the rights to the art they created.

It's my understanding that the Bearcat image(s) you are attempting to recreate are under copyright and you are negotiating with the holder for the rights to reproduce them. Is this correct or is my information wrong?

If it's correct - what's the difference between them and me? The people you are dealing with didn't create the original artwork, they have just retained the rights to it through inheritance law.

I'm not planning on squating on any of the art I hold copyrights to. If someone wants to create another product using the image, I'd be more than happy to talk to them regarding licensing. (In fact, I had a discussion with one of the major restoration houses on a couple of items. I heard that they decided not to proceed with their projects.) I'm just looking to protect my investment in time and energy that I spent creating the art used for my products.

As for me stealing artwork (your word, not mine) from you or anybody else. All I can say is that I have never knowingly infringed on another's copyrighted image, and I don't plan on starting now. All you have is your word in this world - and I plan on keeping mine.

I have made it a point to check with both of the major lens manufacturer's prior to working on a new lens design to see if they had planned on doing that particular image. If so, I did not proceded with the art or the copyright application. And I secure the copyrights to the image prior to going into production on ALL the lenses we at T-way's produce. Whether the image is a fantasy or a historical image.

Speaking of the major players in lens manufacturing. They retain all the copyright rights that I have on all the images on their sites - they just haven't physically registered their lens images with the Copyright Office. Remember, as soon as the image is 'published' it's covered. And they have nothing but historical images.

If push-came-to-shove, either of them could sue in U.S. Federal Court and prevail

Wes and Larry, I value your opinions and thank you for stating them here. I'm sorry that you feel the way you do.

Thanks for your questions.

Jim

[This message has been edited by T-way (edited 01-11-2006).]

[This message has been edited by T-way (edited 01-11-2006).]

Re: Where is this hobby headed? #22530
Wed Jan 11 2006 12:11 PM
Wed Jan 11 2006 12:11 PM
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Parker, CO USA
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scootdog Offline
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So lets talk about your images. What if I want to make a sign with a fyre drop. Do I need a license from you to make the signs? What if I make my own artwork from an original sign? Do I still owe you?

Have you contacted Exxon Mobil for permission to use the Power-Lube image. I have spoken with the archives and they have stated they still hold the copyright for it. Are you sure you own it?


Scott
Wanted- Powerine and Powerlube items!
Re: Where is this hobby headed? #22531
Wed Jan 11 2006 12:28 PM
Wed Jan 11 2006 12:28 PM
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Riley, MI, USA
T-way Offline
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Scootdog:

It is my understanding that if you desire to make a Fyre-Drop sign using the black background with the lettering that appears on my image - yes, you would need to secure licensing rights from me. Your art would need to be substantially different from mine to not infringe.

If you design another image based on one of the other lenses Fyre-Drop used - then no, I have no claim on those.

As for the Powerlube. The Image I produced is registered to me via the U.S. Copyright Office. Their search (not mine) did not turn up a current copyright on any portion of the art I registered or the rights would not have been granted to me.

And my search for a Trademark registration for 'Powerlube' does not show any 'Live' trademarks. If, I did infringe on their image in any way, I'd be happy to pay them for the necessary licensing fees. Providing I receive documentation on the infringment.

Jim

[This message has been edited by T-way (edited 01-11-2006).]

Re: Where is this hobby headed? #22532
Wed Jan 11 2006 12:35 PM
Wed Jan 11 2006 12:35 PM
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Posts: 2,240
Decatur, IL
thermactor Offline
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RE: the fyre-drop lens, you're basically saying it would have to be substantially different from ORIGINAL, too --- since your copyright is the original image. Who wants something that differs from original? Not me...

RE: the powerlube... It seems that perhaps you can copyright things that are already copyrighted, as long as the current owner doesn't find out about it and go after you for it... The copyright office must not be very thorough...

Wes

Re: Where is this hobby headed? #22533
Wed Jan 11 2006 12:38 PM
Wed Jan 11 2006 12:38 PM
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Collierville, Tn
roger cherry Offline
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Hey everyone, I hear alot of yelling out there, lets keep this civil. Just to let everyone know, I own one of the two black-background Fyre-Drop globes known to exist. The other one was restored by Dawn Hubert and resides in a collection in California. I personally am curious to see how this goes because I own an original piece that is copyrighted by someone else. So now, if I (Roger Cherry), want to restore a pump with MY original globe, then I, (Roger Cherry), can't make decals for my pump because someone else owns the rights to the image with I own one of the two originals of. I don't know guys, sounds kinda strange but the law is the law.

Re: Where is this hobby headed? #22534
Wed Jan 11 2006 12:41 PM
Wed Jan 11 2006 12:41 PM
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Parker, CO USA
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scootdog Offline
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This is creepy you are profiting from others creative efforts. Why do you feel you deserve the money?

I think I have about said my piece. I also will speak with my wallet by continuing not to buy from you.This by far takes the cake for the worst thing I have heard on this site.

Anyone else want to speak with there wallet?


Scott
Wanted- Powerine and Powerlube items!
Re: Where is this hobby headed? #22535
Wed Jan 11 2006 12:42 PM
Wed Jan 11 2006 12:42 PM
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Decatur, IL
thermactor Offline
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Though my wallet isn't very loud, it speaks as well.

Wes

Re: Where is this hobby headed? #22536
Wed Jan 11 2006 12:46 PM
Wed Jan 11 2006 12:46 PM
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Collierville, Tn
roger cherry Offline
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Something just came to mind about my Fyre-Drop globe. I want to know where the image came from that the artwork was made from so it could be copied???? I own one original and have posted a picture of it on this site before. The only other place it could have come from is Sam Blakely in Cal. I want to know did he give you the image because I did not knowingly. I put my globe image on here for EVERYONE to enjoy, not make money off of.

Re: Where is this hobby headed? #22537
Wed Jan 11 2006 12:53 PM
Wed Jan 11 2006 12:53 PM
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Longmont, CO
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RARIN TO GO Offline
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So it is true that you can copyright something and keep others from making another without lining your pockets first. Even an old original item you can claim as your own. My wallet is gonna speak!
You said without a copyright "there is nothing to stop anyone from ‘borrowing’ the artwork and producing their own versions of our products."
ISN'T THAT WHAT YOU ARE DOING!
Disgraceful.
I may not post another image on oldgas again for fear that someone will copyright it and keep others from using it. Or worse yet keep me from using my own item as I want.
Chris

Re: Where is this hobby headed? #22538
Wed Jan 11 2006 12:59 PM
Wed Jan 11 2006 12:59 PM
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Collierville, Tn
roger cherry Offline
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I hope this is NOT where the image came from to make the artwork and copyright it.
http://www.oldgas.com/shoptalk/ubb/Forum4/HTML/001173.html

Re: Where is this hobby headed? #22539
Wed Jan 11 2006 01:12 PM
Wed Jan 11 2006 01:12 PM
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gilbert, az 85298
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LarryIvy Offline
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No Roger,
What this means is products will start being bootlegged underground again and totally unmarked so it can't be traced. Remember the old porcelain sign scams that nobody would own up to making or selling.
A lot of this is also baying at the moon, Harley has spent literally $M and it still didn't stop harley globes in the hundreds from being made and sold even on ebay. Its not just the Fyredrop you own, the chief globe is an almost exact copy of the sign which means that image cannot be used in any manner without paying Jim a royalty. As far as the globe makers he mentioned, people have used the Polly art and the Gilmore lion head art Slama did over 15 years ago and he has said nothing so he is not anologous to this situation.
Larry



[This message has been edited by PremoPetrol (edited 01-11-2006).]


larry ivy
Re: Where is this hobby headed? #22540
Wed Jan 11 2006 02:32 PM
Wed Jan 11 2006 02:32 PM
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Butte, Montana USA
Alex Offline
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Always intersting to see a "debate" of the issues. I am not taking sides. It sounds as if T-Way is doing things legally. Some of you feel it is not ethical. Don't confuse legality with ethics. I know some about copyright protection. In a nut shell, if something is not copyrighted (protected)it usually can be used. And, if a company does not protect or renew it's copyrights. Someone else can go copyright them. Example: The movie "It's a Wonderful Life" starring Jimmy Stewart was recieved as a so-so movie in 1947. The movie owner let the copy rights expire. Television channels started showing the movie in the 1960s every year and didn't have to pay for it. No copyright fees. It became a hit and I think (not sure) that is has been re copyrighted, but not by the original owners. If you don't like what the gentleman is doing, as stated we can vote with our wallet. But,ask yourself, is he doing something wrong. If you don't like that.. Alexander Graham Bell, phone guy, beat his competitor to the pstent office by a few hours. The guy who bellows "LLLLLLLLLLLLET'S GET READY TO RUMB... He copyrighted that. Gets a ton of money to say it too. If a basketball team used that without permission/royalties...can get sued. Pat Riley, Coach of the Miami Heat.....he owns the copy right to the phrase "Three-Peat". Want to put Mickey Mouse on your shirt, you can get sued. All depends if the owner of the rights knows and/or wants to sue. Call your lawyer, pack a sandwich and check out these websites: www.whatscopyright.org www.bitlaw.com/copyright www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html www.law.cornell.edu/wex/index


Alex
Looking for Texaco and Power Gasoline items
Re: Where is this hobby headed? #22541
Wed Jan 11 2006 02:37 PM
Wed Jan 11 2006 02:37 PM
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Parker, CO USA
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scootdog Offline
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Let me make a list of all the things I could copyright:
Mona Lisa
Eiffel Tower
White House
Wait how about George Washington or Benjamin

Where does it stop?


Scott
Wanted- Powerine and Powerlube items!
Re: Where is this hobby headed? #22542
Wed Jan 11 2006 03:26 PM
Wed Jan 11 2006 03:26 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 925
Moline, IL, USA
Mac Offline
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Truly an interesting topic to say the least. I won't take sides, but I'm still waiting to hear where T-Way got the image to produce the Fyre Drop Gasoline globe? Sounds like Roger and the guy in CA have the only 2 known in existence. If that is the case, then the image used to create the globe had to come from one of them, right? If so, wouldn't T-Way have to get permission to use the image from either owner of the original globes? If the image came from Roger's post on this site and Roger owns the globe, then I would assume that T-Way would have had to obtain permission to use the image of Roger's globe? If a picture is lifted off of this website without the owner of this website's permission, wouldn't that also consitute copyright infringement? After all, a photographer who takes a picture of something is the owner of that image isn't he? I know that copyright law allows for the "fair use" of an image to be reproduced under certain circumstances (sections 107 through 118 of the Copyright Act--title 17, U.S. Code), but I believe it depends on how the reproduced image will be used.

Look forward to hearing where T-Way got the image to produce the globe. If it is as simple as lifting an image off of the internet and taking the risk of the image not having a copyright on it and then obtaining one if there is no existing copyright, I can see where owners of rare pieces will shy away from sharing their photos here. If things are that simple, I wouldn't even allow someone to view my collection (if I had a rare item) without first getting a copyright. Am I missing something on how all this works? If, for the sake of example, the image used to develop the Fyre Drop globe was in fact taken from a posted photo of a globe owned by another party (Roger), was Roger's rights infringed upon?

Interesting topic, look forward to more clarification.

Mac

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