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#22513 - Tue Jan 10 2006 08:40 PM Where is this hobby headed?
besgar Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Fri Feb 20 2004
Loc: BEULAH CO
This is bound to be a controversial subject, but that is not my intention. This is just how I see it and if you dont agree I really dont care. There are some people in this hobby who really try and help this hobby, and then there are those who try and make an honest living in a hobby they enjoy. I have no problem with these people and am glad they are in our hobby. Then there are people out there that just want to make a buck, or want the power to control where things come from so they can get their cut. I dont know where some of our laws go wrong, but they have, and people, when given an opportunity will take advantage. It's a sad thing when this happens. If things continue in this direction there won't be anyone left to make the things we need for this hobby to carry on. I am a young collector, 31, and I know my generation is the minority in this hobby, and if things dont change we will be the last generation to have this hobby. These type of happenings really disgust me and that is bad for my hobby. I know there is not much I can do except for one thing, learn who is a help and who is a slime bucket, and only deal with them the helpful ones. It doesn't take long to see someones true colors if you look. If we all carry on our business this way we will hurt the only things they care about, and that is their wallet and egos. Like I said, this is what I believe and if you dont agree, so what, you aren't going to hurt my feelings. Just remember this when there are less and less vendors for stuff. Support the right guys, those who are helping promote the hobby, not monopolize it. You owe it to them for all they do for this hobby.
Brandon Esgar

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Please use For Sale forums to sell

Please - NO offers to Buy or Sell in this forum category

Statements such as, "I'm thinking about selling this." are considered an offer to sell.
#22514 - Tue Jan 10 2006 10:54 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
RARIN TO GO Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Sat Aug 28 2004
Loc: Longmont, CO
Amen and ditto besgar. I'm feelin' what your saying and I have heard things recently that amaze me that not only can they be done but that people who claim to care about this hobby do regularly. Support the good guys and ...* Too bad we can't call 'em as we see them here without risk of suspension or expulsion because they deserve to be called out because if what I hear is true some do not really do business in the way I would say helps the hobby.
Just my 2.
chris

*I edited this post to remove a phase that refered to people in general but I did not want it to be mistaken as a comment directed at any specific person.

[This message has been edited by RARIN TO GO (edited 01-11-2006).]

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#22515 - Wed Jan 11 2006 12:39 AM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
sslick68 Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Mon Jan 24 2005
Loc: Rolla Mo
I am maybe the only one here asking this but could you elaborate on this a little more or define what your trying to get across to us??I always thought that the dealers were trying to make a fast honest buck?Just trying to understand you guys more,dont want to get involved in another heated topic of minds here but I think that were on the same page here??Ill wait for some replies before I speak up!

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#22516 - Wed Jan 11 2006 07:45 AM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
5 quart Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Sun Jul 06 2003
Loc: Stockton NJ USA
Hi Brandon- your post here is a little vague- could you be a bit more specific without nameing names-??? Not quite sure what you mean by control of where things come from so they can get their cut- This sounds like a great topic as long as we keep it under control- thanks don

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Wanted 5 quart cans
_________________________
[b] Wanted 5 quart cans -old speed equipment -1950-60s- Cad- Olds std shift parts - site at www.oilnspeed.com

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#22517 - Wed Jan 11 2006 08:00 AM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
scootdog Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Wed Jun 05 2002
Loc: Parker, CO USA
Just a guess but I have heard about oldgas members suing other members over artwork and copyrighting old images. I don't have the facts so I won't comment other then to say that we used to have to worry about images of new items getting in the wrong hands because a reproduction would be made and it would drive down the price of the original. Now we have to worry that the old image will be remade and copyrighted and any use of the image will be dealt with via a lawsuit...

With many of the old guard retiring from collecting and selling there collection there is a new and more aggressive breed of collector who are looking to profit from the hobby. While this is nothing new the fear of lawsuit's over artwork has me rethinking some pictures I have posted for others to see.

Lastly, I interpret what Brandon started here to mean that is this really what we want to be a part of? Lawsuits for every disagreement? No more handshake deals? What happened to a mans word?
_________________________
Scott
Wanted- Powerine and Powerlube items!

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#22518 - Wed Jan 11 2006 08:07 AM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
philmccauley Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Thu Jul 26 2001
Loc: Bardstown, KY USA
I too am a young collector of 35 years of age. I have been collecting for about 5 years and love the hunt and catch when you get it. I do not know exactly what Brandon is referring to but like everything else there are always people out there to steal, copy, forge, and cheat to make money. You have to be the best judge of the matter and trust your gut. I have met many great and honest people collecting and hope to keep meeting more. I figure that when it is time for my stuff to go, I will pass on to people I know that will enjoy it.

Phil
_________________________
Thanks, Phil
_________________________________________________
Looking for any old pumps, or nice 5 gallon cans.

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#22519 - Wed Jan 11 2006 08:14 AM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
RARIN TO GO Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Sat Aug 28 2004
Loc: Longmont, CO
I do not know for sure what Brandon is referring to but my post is directly related to the issue of copyrighting something that was really designed as much as hundred years ago by someone else and just because someone reproduces that image I don't understand how they can have anymore right to its use now than anyone else. The people who reproduce these items had no involvement in their original design and yet some how they can copyright it?
I'm still looking into this stuff to try to find out what parts are true and if I feel it's wrong I'll be saying it with my wallet.
Chris

[This message has been edited by RARIN TO GO (edited 01-11-2006).]

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#22520 - Wed Jan 11 2006 08:50 AM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
roger cherry Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Thu Jul 04 2002
Loc: Collierville, Tn
I am not going to say much here but I feel sueing someone in a hobby that is supposed to be fun is going to do nothing but kill it. I was sued by a bunch of rich people who thought they could bully me a couple of years ago and they found out wrong. I am now in litigation over something similar and will not comment on it. There are other ways to handle things other than litigation. The only people who win are lawyers. If the hobby is to survive, then poeple need to grow up and quit acting childish. I have made great attempts at controlling what I post on this site and since I have, I noticed that things go alot smoother for me. My advice is that everyone try and get along, there is so much more to life than your hobby and there are many great FRIENDS to be made out here in collecting. If someone turns on you, then just ignore them and leave them alone. There reputation will get around. I want to say that most everyone that post on this site I respect and admire and even though I have not met alot of you in person, I feel I know you. Everyone, this is a hot topic, so lets play easy, OK!!!

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#22521 - Wed Jan 11 2006 09:43 AM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
Seth Robbins Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Thu Dec 21 2000
Loc: Guthrie, OK. 73044
I think I have a feel for where Brandon's coming from....it's getting to be a pretty scary situation. I have a license with every major oil company & General Motors and there are times when I get frustrated seeing things "boot-legged" when I am writing those big checks every quarter for royalties....BUT....I've never blown the whistle because truthfully, it would't help me any and most guys are just having fun and really aren't competing with me. This other issue of copyrighting the early logos that are now public domain, that I believe you guys are referring to, is definitely a 'sticky' situation and one I am monitoring closely. In my situation, I keep an attorney on retainer just to help me stay out of trouble and to translate what's right and what's wrong. I think most everybody is good at their core, but when pride gets involved and feelings get hurt...LOOK OUT!!!

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#22522 - Wed Jan 11 2006 10:13 AM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
besgar Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Fri Feb 20 2004
Loc: BEULAH CO
This was not intended to single anyone person out, however if you feel it about you than it probally is. Our concience will be the judge.
Brandon

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#22523 - Wed Jan 11 2006 11:22 AM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
scootdog Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Wed Jun 05 2002
Loc: Parker, CO USA
Anyone have expertise in this area that would care to share how these older images are being copyrighted? How about some of you graphics guys, doc, pogo, tway, mike?
_________________________
Scott
Wanted- Powerine and Powerlube items!

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#22524 - Wed Jan 11 2006 12:06 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
T-way Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Jul 24 2002
Loc: Riley, MI, USA
Hello everyone.

Since I’m not aware of anybody else involved in a law suit regarding Copyright Infringement – and this post seems to be directed at me - I figured I might as well reply so everyone can hear my side of the story.

There seems to be quite a bit of opinion on this law suit. This surprises me. I say that, because as of this date no one on this site, or in the Petrol hobby – and I mean no one – has bothered to contact me to inquire about the law suit I am pursuing against my former business partners.

Since I have not been talking to anyone about the suit, I will have to assume that the information that is out in the Petrolania community is being disseminated by the Defendant(s) in the suit. I feel that everyone should have the opportunity to hear both sides of the argument before making an informed opinion

While I can’t give you all the information while the suit is in litigation, I can tell you the images in question and give a brief rundown on Copyrighting an image along with my reasons for doing so.

The suit is for Copyright Infringement on 9 separate images:
Michigan Maid
Time Gas
Fyre-Drop Gasoline
Washington Chief Gasoline
Montana Chief Gasoline
Idaho Chief Gasoline
Oregon Chief Gasoline
Red Indian Gasoline
& PDQ Petrol

All of these images are copyrighted to me personally. All the Registration Numbers are posted on our web site under the image itself. You can go to the Library of Congress, Copyright Search Page and look up the Copyright information on any of these images by plugging in the Registration Number ( www.copyright.gov/records/cohm.html ).

Out of the nine images listed above, only three of them are direct reproductions of old original lens artwork. This includes the Michigan Maid, PDQ Petrol and the Fyre-Drop images. All are of images, that in original versions, no more than 10 or so examples exist in collections today.

The copyrights issued only cover the image listed and variations of those images that take from the original registered art. I.E. the Fyre-Drop copyright is for the black background version only. The copyright does not cover any of the other versions of lens art the company used.

The other six images are ‘fantasy’ images created by myself using period-correct reference from the various companies. These are ‘brand new original art’ and have nothing to do with any original lens designs.

--------------------------------------------

Let’s review the Copyright process.

Copyrights are used to protect visual arts and images. These are defined by Copyright Law as: “ . . . pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including 2-dimensional and 3-dimensional works of fine, graphic, and applied art.”

While it is true that an artist’s work is covered by Copyright as soon as it is ‘published’, it is always a good idea to physically copyright an image for legal protection.

In order to receive a Copyright on an image(s) the artist needs to submit an application and a fee, along with two color representations of the image.

I want to stress that this is an APPLICATION for Copyright protection. You can not copyright an image if it is already copyrighted by another person or corporation. You can register a copyright for images that have expired.

Once the form is received at the Copyright Office, the request is investigated by a researcher. IF the image is not currently covered by an existing Copyright, the applicant is issued the ‘rights’ to the image and a Registration Number. If the image is currently under a Copyright by another individual or corporation, the application is denied and a letter is sent stating that to the applicant.

If you have any further concerns on Copyright issues, feel free to review the Copyright information on the United States Copyright Office web page ( http://www.copyright.gov/ ).

--------------------------------------------

Now let me explain why I wanted Copyright protection on these images.

I produce, thru T-way’s Graphic F/X, Inc., limited edition globe lenses for you, the collector and petroleum enthusiast. I also supply decals and ad glass for those of you who desire to ‘restore’ a pump in a ‘brand’ not currently available thru other vendors.

I spend time tracking down reference, original items, actual lenses and other forms of reference to create or recreate the artwork required to produce these lenses/decals/etc. There can be substantial time involved in the research phase. Once the information is collected, I then spend hours creating the artwork necessary for production.

After the art is completed, the copyright process itself can take up to 5 months to complete.

There are also costs involved in the actual production of the lenses, decal and ad glass, plus shipping and storage costs. Not to mention the costs associated with the creation and maintenance of the web site.

We also guarantee that the images we produce will be limited to no more than 30 sets of lenses.

Without the protection of a copyright on the image, there is nothing to stop anyone from ‘borrowing’ the artwork and producing their own versions of our products. Thereby reducing the value of our product(s) – and the value of our customer’s purchases.

Therefore, we register our images to protect our investment. We only officially register those images that we have plans on producing as limited edition runs of lenses.

--------------------------------------------

Everyone deals with copyrights daily. Whether or not they actually notice it.

If you have purchased a Pontiac CAPCO globe from any of the vendors – you paid a licensing fee indirectly to General Motors. If you purchased ANY Harley Davidson item, you paid a licensing fee. All the restaurants you eat at, the hotels you stay at, and the cars you drive have registered copyrights on their respective logos.

Even the reproduction neon GM signs discussed in another post on this site are licensed by GM. Fees were paid to General Motors for the rights to produce those signs.

It’s a fact of life - and a fact of law. You are not allowed to infringe on another’s intellectual property. Not for photographs, DVD’s, CD’s, software, etc. It’s all protected by copyright.

No one seems to have a problem with the gentleman in Canada that holds the copyright to one of the Red Indian images. He has had to pursue legal remedies against infringement of his rights numerous times. And no one had a problem with the Gilmore lenses that were produced by Mike Slama under an agreement with the original copyright holders. The copyright holders reserved the rights of approval on the artwork in that instance.

If you have stayed with me to this point, I thank you for letting me express my reasons for the actions I have been forced to take. If my former business partners had just respected my copyrights in the first place, none of this would have been necessary.

Feel free to post your views on this issue. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I promise you I will not be offended. Or, drop me an e-mail if you would like to discuss this with me directly.

Jim Treadway


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www.T-waysGraphics.com

[This message has been edited by T-way (edited 01-11-2006).]
_________________________


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#22525 - Wed Jan 11 2006 12:22 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
scootdog Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Wed Jun 05 2002
Loc: Parker, CO USA
Tway- I have no problem with you fantasy lenses but I have a HUGE problem with you copyrighting the real images so that nobody can do the same research and come up with similar artwork. Why squat on the images?Where did you get the artwork to create yours from? Here at oldgas? off the net? This a huge concern for our oldgas community to know that you are copyrighting the images that you DO NOT OWN originals of. Are we safe to post pictures that you can see?

Let me be more direct. I have a door with an bearcat image that I will be reproducing for globes and decals and will be selling at cost to anyone who wants them. However what is going to stop you from stealing my image and recreating the artwork, copyrighting, creating globes and then suing me for my own artwork?
_________________________
Scott
Wanted- Powerine and Powerlube items!

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#22526 - Wed Jan 11 2006 12:31 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
kmann Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Tue Aug 26 2003
Loc: new york
am i to believe that whoever gets to the copyright office first wins ???.. interesting topic to say the least...

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#22527 - Wed Jan 11 2006 12:38 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
thermactor Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Apr 27 2005
Loc: Decatur, IL
I must say that I find this news disappointing.

If I'm reading this correctly, you can just go out there, find old advertising images that someone created 80 years ago, directly copy them, and then pay a fee and get the rights to them?

What if I go and start copyrighting every image that I can find where the copyright has expired, the artist has died, etc? Then NOBODY could use those images, ever, or I could sue their pants off.

So now, if anyone wants the cool black background Fyre-Drop globe as a repro, they're SOL, because they didn't get one of the 10 that you made?

Of course it costs you money to do the work that you do. It costs me money to fix up gas pumps too. It costs everyone money to do everything that they do, for that matter. I don't feel that that's a MORAL justification for copyrighting your copies. I suppose I can see copyrighting fantasy pieces, but originals?

It might be technically legal, sure. Lots of terrible things are legal. Prostitution is legal in some states. Does that make it right?

I think it's plain bad for the hobby. If all of the original old images get copyrighted, where am I going to get a repro of something I want to use on a pump? You state the protection of limited edition numbers as your main motivation. That right there says to me that it's all about the money, because customers pay you a premium for limited production items. If production is limited, I'll never get a Fyre-Drop repro globe, even if I'm trying to restore some old pump that originally had one. I darn sure can't afford an original.

How far is it going to go? Can I copyright a pieces of stainless trim for a gas pump as a sculpture, and be the sole provider of that piece of trim, provided nobody currently has rights to it?

Joking aside, I think what you've done is terrible for the hobby.

Wes

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#22528 - Wed Jan 11 2006 12:45 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
LarryIvy Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Fri Feb 09 2001
Loc: gilbert, az 85298
I have refrained from posting in this forum on opinion items for some time now but must make an exception in this case. I've been restoring pumps for 20+ years and use and enjoy the sources of parts to aid in my restorations.
My message is to Jim and anyone else thinking along these lines. As far as artwork for fantasy or custom items, I could care less and do not want to become involved in an argument who owns the UNIQUE artwork. It appears that Jim feels he has the right to own OLD ORIGINAL ARTWORK that is redrawn by him ie: The Fyre drop lenses. If that is your stance, you have sold me the last item I will buy and I will encourage my fellow hobbiest to do the same. As already stated, I will do my talking with my wallet.

Larry Ivy
Premopetrol
_________________________
larry ivy

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#22529 - Wed Jan 11 2006 12:51 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
T-way Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Jul 24 2002
Loc: Riley, MI, USA
Scootdog:

My reference came from many areas. Auctions, books, actual lenses in peoples collections, items I own, etc.

I've stated this before in previous posts: Owning an original lens or decal or sign does not give you the copyrights to the image. The Copyright Office issues Copyrights. All you own is the item itself.

Anyone can create new art of vintage gasoline logos and send in an application for a copyright. But if the image is currently copyrighted, they will not receive the rights to the art they created.

It's my understanding that the Bearcat image(s) you are attempting to recreate are under copyright and you are negotiating with the holder for the rights to reproduce them. Is this correct or is my information wrong?

If it's correct - what's the difference between them and me? The people you are dealing with didn't create the original artwork, they have just retained the rights to it through inheritance law.

I'm not planning on squating on any of the art I hold copyrights to. If someone wants to create another product using the image, I'd be more than happy to talk to them regarding licensing. (In fact, I had a discussion with one of the major restoration houses on a couple of items. I heard that they decided not to proceed with their projects.) I'm just looking to protect my investment in time and energy that I spent creating the art used for my products.

As for me stealing artwork (your word, not mine) from you or anybody else. All I can say is that I have never knowingly infringed on another's copyrighted image, and I don't plan on starting now. All you have is your word in this world - and I plan on keeping mine.

I have made it a point to check with both of the major lens manufacturer's prior to working on a new lens design to see if they had planned on doing that particular image. If so, I did not proceded with the art or the copyright application. And I secure the copyrights to the image prior to going into production on ALL the lenses we at T-way's produce. Whether the image is a fantasy or a historical image.

Speaking of the major players in lens manufacturing. They retain all the copyright rights that I have on all the images on their sites - they just haven't physically registered their lens images with the Copyright Office. Remember, as soon as the image is 'published' it's covered. And they have nothing but historical images.

If push-came-to-shove, either of them could sue in U.S. Federal Court and prevail

Wes and Larry, I value your opinions and thank you for stating them here. I'm sorry that you feel the way you do.

Thanks for your questions.

Jim

[This message has been edited by T-way (edited 01-11-2006).]

[This message has been edited by T-way (edited 01-11-2006).]
_________________________


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#22530 - Wed Jan 11 2006 01:11 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
scootdog Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Wed Jun 05 2002
Loc: Parker, CO USA
So lets talk about your images. What if I want to make a sign with a fyre drop. Do I need a license from you to make the signs? What if I make my own artwork from an original sign? Do I still owe you?

Have you contacted Exxon Mobil for permission to use the Power-Lube image. I have spoken with the archives and they have stated they still hold the copyright for it. Are you sure you own it?
_________________________
Scott
Wanted- Powerine and Powerlube items!

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#22531 - Wed Jan 11 2006 01:28 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
T-way Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Jul 24 2002
Loc: Riley, MI, USA
Scootdog:

It is my understanding that if you desire to make a Fyre-Drop sign using the black background with the lettering that appears on my image - yes, you would need to secure licensing rights from me. Your art would need to be substantially different from mine to not infringe.

If you design another image based on one of the other lenses Fyre-Drop used - then no, I have no claim on those.

As for the Powerlube. The Image I produced is registered to me via the U.S. Copyright Office. Their search (not mine) did not turn up a current copyright on any portion of the art I registered or the rights would not have been granted to me.

And my search for a Trademark registration for 'Powerlube' does not show any 'Live' trademarks. If, I did infringe on their image in any way, I'd be happy to pay them for the necessary licensing fees. Providing I receive documentation on the infringment.

Jim

[This message has been edited by T-way (edited 01-11-2006).]
_________________________


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#22532 - Wed Jan 11 2006 01:35 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
thermactor Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Apr 27 2005
Loc: Decatur, IL
RE: the fyre-drop lens, you're basically saying it would have to be substantially different from ORIGINAL, too --- since your copyright is the original image. Who wants something that differs from original? Not me...

RE: the powerlube... It seems that perhaps you can copyright things that are already copyrighted, as long as the current owner doesn't find out about it and go after you for it... The copyright office must not be very thorough...

Wes

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#22533 - Wed Jan 11 2006 01:38 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
roger cherry Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Thu Jul 04 2002
Loc: Collierville, Tn
Hey everyone, I hear alot of yelling out there, lets keep this civil. Just to let everyone know, I own one of the two black-background Fyre-Drop globes known to exist. The other one was restored by Dawn Hubert and resides in a collection in California. I personally am curious to see how this goes because I own an original piece that is copyrighted by someone else. So now, if I (Roger Cherry), want to restore a pump with MY original globe, then I, (Roger Cherry), can't make decals for my pump because someone else owns the rights to the image with I own one of the two originals of. I don't know guys, sounds kinda strange but the law is the law.

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#22534 - Wed Jan 11 2006 01:41 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
scootdog Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Wed Jun 05 2002
Loc: Parker, CO USA
This is creepy you are profiting from others creative efforts. Why do you feel you deserve the money?

I think I have about said my piece. I also will speak with my wallet by continuing not to buy from you.This by far takes the cake for the worst thing I have heard on this site.

Anyone else want to speak with there wallet?
_________________________
Scott
Wanted- Powerine and Powerlube items!

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#22535 - Wed Jan 11 2006 01:42 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
thermactor Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Apr 27 2005
Loc: Decatur, IL
Though my wallet isn't very loud, it speaks as well.

Wes

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#22536 - Wed Jan 11 2006 01:46 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
roger cherry Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Thu Jul 04 2002
Loc: Collierville, Tn
Something just came to mind about my Fyre-Drop globe. I want to know where the image came from that the artwork was made from so it could be copied???? I own one original and have posted a picture of it on this site before. The only other place it could have come from is Sam Blakely in Cal. I want to know did he give you the image because I did not knowingly. I put my globe image on here for EVERYONE to enjoy, not make money off of.

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#22537 - Wed Jan 11 2006 01:53 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
RARIN TO GO Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Sat Aug 28 2004
Loc: Longmont, CO
So it is true that you can copyright something and keep others from making another without lining your pockets first. Even an old original item you can claim as your own. My wallet is gonna speak!
You said without a copyright "there is nothing to stop anyone from ‘borrowing’ the artwork and producing their own versions of our products."
ISN'T THAT WHAT YOU ARE DOING!
Disgraceful.
I may not post another image on oldgas again for fear that someone will copyright it and keep others from using it. Or worse yet keep me from using my own item as I want.
Chris

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#22538 - Wed Jan 11 2006 01:59 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
roger cherry Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Thu Jul 04 2002
Loc: Collierville, Tn
I hope this is NOT where the image came from to make the artwork and copyright it.
http://www.oldgas.com/shoptalk/ubb/Forum4/HTML/001173.html

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#22539 - Wed Jan 11 2006 02:12 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
LarryIvy Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Fri Feb 09 2001
Loc: gilbert, az 85298
No Roger,
What this means is products will start being bootlegged underground again and totally unmarked so it can't be traced. Remember the old porcelain sign scams that nobody would own up to making or selling.
A lot of this is also baying at the moon, Harley has spent literally $M and it still didn't stop harley globes in the hundreds from being made and sold even on ebay. Its not just the Fyredrop you own, the chief globe is an almost exact copy of the sign which means that image cannot be used in any manner without paying Jim a royalty. As far as the globe makers he mentioned, people have used the Polly art and the Gilmore lion head art Slama did over 15 years ago and he has said nothing so he is not anologous to this situation.
Larry



[This message has been edited by PremoPetrol (edited 01-11-2006).]
_________________________
larry ivy

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#22540 - Wed Jan 11 2006 03:32 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
Alex Offline
Moderator, Value Forum

Registered: Mon Dec 08 2003
Loc: Butte, Montana USA
Always intersting to see a "debate" of the issues. I am not taking sides. It sounds as if T-Way is doing things legally. Some of you feel it is not ethical. Don't confuse legality with ethics. I know some about copyright protection. In a nut shell, if something is not copyrighted (protected)it usually can be used. And, if a company does not protect or renew it's copyrights. Someone else can go copyright them. Example: The movie "It's a Wonderful Life" starring Jimmy Stewart was recieved as a so-so movie in 1947. The movie owner let the copy rights expire. Television channels started showing the movie in the 1960s every year and didn't have to pay for it. No copyright fees. It became a hit and I think (not sure) that is has been re copyrighted, but not by the original owners. If you don't like what the gentleman is doing, as stated we can vote with our wallet. But,ask yourself, is he doing something wrong. If you don't like that.. Alexander Graham Bell, phone guy, beat his competitor to the pstent office by a few hours. The guy who bellows "LLLLLLLLLLLLET'S GET READY TO RUMB... He copyrighted that. Gets a ton of money to say it too. If a basketball team used that without permission/royalties...can get sued. Pat Riley, Coach of the Miami Heat.....he owns the copy right to the phrase "Three-Peat". Want to put Mickey Mouse on your shirt, you can get sued. All depends if the owner of the rights knows and/or wants to sue. Call your lawyer, pack a sandwich and check out these websites: www.whatscopyright.org www.bitlaw.com/copyright www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html www.law.cornell.edu/wex/index
_________________________
Alex
Looking for Texaco and Power Gasoline items

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#22541 - Wed Jan 11 2006 03:37 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
scootdog Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Wed Jun 05 2002
Loc: Parker, CO USA
Let me make a list of all the things I could copyright:
Mona Lisa
Eiffel Tower
White House
Wait how about George Washington or Benjamin

Where does it stop?
_________________________
Scott
Wanted- Powerine and Powerlube items!

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#22542 - Wed Jan 11 2006 04:26 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
Mac Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Fri Sep 17 2004
Loc: Moline, IL, USA
Truly an interesting topic to say the least. I won't take sides, but I'm still waiting to hear where T-Way got the image to produce the Fyre Drop Gasoline globe? Sounds like Roger and the guy in CA have the only 2 known in existence. If that is the case, then the image used to create the globe had to come from one of them, right? If so, wouldn't T-Way have to get permission to use the image from either owner of the original globes? If the image came from Roger's post on this site and Roger owns the globe, then I would assume that T-Way would have had to obtain permission to use the image of Roger's globe? If a picture is lifted off of this website without the owner of this website's permission, wouldn't that also consitute copyright infringement? After all, a photographer who takes a picture of something is the owner of that image isn't he? I know that copyright law allows for the "fair use" of an image to be reproduced under certain circumstances (sections 107 through 118 of the Copyright Act--title 17, U.S. Code), but I believe it depends on how the reproduced image will be used.

Look forward to hearing where T-Way got the image to produce the globe. If it is as simple as lifting an image off of the internet and taking the risk of the image not having a copyright on it and then obtaining one if there is no existing copyright, I can see where owners of rare pieces will shy away from sharing their photos here. If things are that simple, I wouldn't even allow someone to view my collection (if I had a rare item) without first getting a copyright. Am I missing something on how all this works? If, for the sake of example, the image used to develop the Fyre Drop globe was in fact taken from a posted photo of a globe owned by another party (Roger), was Roger's rights infringed upon?

Interesting topic, look forward to more clarification.

Mac

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#22543 - Wed Jan 11 2006 04:27 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
marxmobilgas Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Thu Jul 10 2003
Loc: DFW Texas USA
Here's my 2 cents.
I'm glad people have taken the steps/time to copyright or whatever it takes to reproduce old images.
I dont have the time or resources to research these things but I sure like being able to buy them. Whether it's your run of the mill round Texaco sign to some rare 1 of a kind image, I like seeing it again.

And like most of you, I cant afford too many originals of anything. If you want a cheap sign that looks nice you go repo.
Now if you are the guy selling the repo's it is only wise to protect the time and money you took to get the rights. Why create competition when you dont have to?
Example:If you find a ton of pumps/signs and cant buy them all right now, do you rush out to tell everyone here's where the deals are?

Now copyrights dont keep the few guys that are out there that want to recreate an image for their personal use in their garage.
But if you are going to go into business with the image, you need to ibide by the law to avoid getting sued and or prevent competition(unless they want to pay to use it).

It's a shame when live in such a litigious society but that's the environment we created. If something is public domain and anybody can use it-run with it. If somebody owns it and beat you to your idea-sorry.
That how a democratic nation works, free enterprise.

The only people I have a problem with(and I'm sure all will agree) is people selling repos as original. As long as I know what I'm getting for what I paid for it, I'm fine.

We would not have ANY reproduced signs if people hadnt taken the time and money to find out how to legally reproduce them.
You would be forced to find all originals for any restoration you would do. Create your own decals and ad glass. Think that would be fun or affordable?

I dont want to offend anyone on this great website but I do see both sides of the picture.
Whatever you do in life some people will not be happy with the results- even when you are doing a good thing.

Sincerely
Mark Standard

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#22544 - Wed Jan 11 2006 04:49 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
st.rod Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Feb 15 2002
Loc: Edgewater, Colorful Colorado
Not Changing the subject.

If you own a piece of property with water on it. Unless you have the rights to it assigned by law, you don't own it. Someone else can file for it and get it, and stop you from using it. And if the person who last owned can't be found. It will be reassigned.

The law is what makes America Free. I know at times it seems unfair. CHANGE THE LAW if you are not satisfied.


I think if you are going to buy a repro globe. Why not 1 set of 30. Instead of 1 set of ????????? Larry
_________________________
In memory of DB 9/12/49 - 8/28/14

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#22545 - Wed Jan 11 2006 04:49 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
Alex Offline
Moderator, Value Forum

Registered: Mon Dec 08 2003
Loc: Butte, Montana USA
Scoot dog. No, you can't copyright those. You didn't hit the websites, did you?? (LOL) Those are (can't find exact name) national ownership items. They belong to the country.
Those of you talking about reproducing a globe image. Owning a globe, even one of a kind, does not give you the right to reproduce it. You, also, are not obligated to lend it to someone to make an image. But, if you put and image of it on a website and the image is not protected...there is the possibility for it to be used. There are sections of copyright laws that refer to websites etc and those protections.
Go look at one of the websites I posted above and see how convoluted and confusing this issue is.
_________________________
Alex
Looking for Texaco and Power Gasoline items

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#22546 - Wed Jan 11 2006 05:10 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
midway oil Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Thu May 23 2002
Loc: Illinois
Sounds like the fox is guarding the hen house here....ouch!!!!

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#22547 - Wed Jan 11 2006 05:10 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
Seth Robbins Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Thu Dec 21 2000
Loc: Guthrie, OK. 73044
I think we are at times confusing getting licensed to make a certain piece with finding an image in the public domain and laying claim to it. I think what most people are concerned with is the fact that someone could conceivably trademark every desireable oil co logo in the public domain thus limiting the marketplace to just those oil company logos that are available for licensing. I don't think it's likely unless someone was just rich and mean and that still hinges on whether this particular case turns out to have merit.

I for one, am in an entirely different boat, in that my biggest selling logos are used under license to major oil companies. I haven't gotten overly excited about this because the logos that move in mass are the ones under license to the big-boy oil companies. Take Polly for example. It is one of the most aesthetically pleasing lenses I carry, but plain old Texaco Star outsells it 50 to 1. My favorite globes are Hudson & Frontier, but I bet I don't sell 10 globes of each in a year! Just for fun, I ran a sales history for the 2005 year on my globe lenses. I carry roughly 85 different logos. The Top 10 sellers (all licensed to oil companies & GM) accounted for roughly 70% of my sales and the other 75 globes accounted for the other 30%. Now, I realize, my situation is different but I am still an enthusiast at my core and I for one like the idea of guys being able to make short-runs of some of the old public domain globes without fear of a backlash. I think it is healthy for the hobby for their to be creative alternatives. There is an evolution of a pump builder that takes place. When they do their first 5-10, Texaco & Mobil & Shell are just fine, but after that some of them want something different. Now, it's not feasible for me to go make 200 PDQ lenses, because I'll probably take 180 of them to my grave. That's where these short-run limited edition guys come in. Even though I don't get the globe sale, that pump builder now has a reason to do another pump (becaues they bought this cool new globe) and that in turn helps me sell parts. Whatever happens in these cases, I hope common-sense wins out before the attorneys do! (sorry if I offended any attorneys on this board).

[This message has been edited by Seth Robbins (edited 01-11-2006).]

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#22548 - Wed Jan 11 2006 05:12 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
st.rod Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Feb 15 2002
Loc: Edgewater, Colorful Colorado
Edited this post. No reason to throw more kindling on the fire. Its just a feud going on.

Any takers on when the thread gets closed? Larry

[This message has been edited by st.rod (edited 01-11-2006).]
_________________________
In memory of DB 9/12/49 - 8/28/14

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#22549 - Wed Jan 11 2006 05:20 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
midway oil Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Thu May 23 2002
Loc: Illinois
As a post-thought on this...sounds as though the hobby is reaching it's saturation point. Instead of having fun it is going to the corporate level.

I guess this happens eventually when people quit acting like true hobbyists and become pseudo-legalists and investors seeking high income gain from somebody else's yearn for nostalgia. Nostalgia knows no price. (Requiem for a hobbyist and YES this has been copyrighted thanks)

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#22550 - Wed Jan 11 2006 05:36 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
uwishuthoughtofit Offline
Member

Registered: Wed Jan 11 2006
Loc: great white north
Well boys...I know I'm new here...and might I add this is a **** way to be introduced to people on this sight, but sounds to me like all of you boys have a little sand in your ***** because T-Way thought of this idea before you did! What the heck is wrong with him making some money out of it!

Cartman lives forever...yeah that's cooool!!!!

Edit to remove an explicit word. Let's keep this discussion on a family acceptable level.

[This message has been edited by Oldgas (edited 01-11-2006).]

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#22551 - Wed Jan 11 2006 05:41 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
st.rod Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Feb 15 2002
Loc: Edgewater, Colorful Colorado
HAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAA. Welcome, Welcome not normally so tense here! Larry
_________________________
In memory of DB 9/12/49 - 8/28/14

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#22552 - Wed Jan 11 2006 05:46 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
scootdog Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Wed Jun 05 2002
Loc: Parker, CO USA
We all signed the user agreement when we posted on oldgas:

Users who violate this agreement or act against the best interests of the Oldgas.com community are subject to temporary or permanent suspension at the discretion of the moderators.

I most feel that what tway is doing is ethically wrong and not in the best interest of this community. Why should he be allowed to copy images found on this site for his personal gain. I want a safe place to post my photos and if this is not the place for that then where?
_________________________
Scott
Wanted- Powerine and Powerlube items!

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#22553 - Wed Jan 11 2006 05:48 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
st.rod Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Feb 15 2002
Loc: Edgewater, Colorful Colorado
BigCheesepetro.com
_________________________
In memory of DB 9/12/49 - 8/28/14

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#22554 - Wed Jan 11 2006 05:56 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
uwishuthoughtofit Offline
Member

Registered: Wed Jan 11 2006
Loc: great white north
What does cheese have to do with this?

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#22555 - Wed Jan 11 2006 05:56 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
Alex Offline
Moderator, Value Forum

Registered: Mon Dec 08 2003
Loc: Butte, Montana USA
Midway: Do you mean that I am a fox guarding the hen house?? If so, not me. I do not or have not reproduced any oil and gas items and have no interest in doing so. Just throwing in my two cents.

Seth: Excellent comments, as usual.
_________________________
Alex
Looking for Texaco and Power Gasoline items

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#22556 - Wed Jan 11 2006 05:57 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
Mac Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Fri Sep 17 2004
Loc: Moline, IL, USA
Scootdog,

Is it yet an established fact that T-Way got the image of Roger's Fyre Drop globe from this site? I'd rather hear from T-Way before we go making assumptions. Not taking any sides and I respect your opinions, just want to hear from T-Way first hand. I'd like to hear what he has to say about where he obtained the image to develop the image he is producing on the globe.

Come on, T-Way, where did you get the image to produce the lens. We're all curious aren't we?

As far as the new guy is concerned, not sure about the sand issue yet, but welcome to the site. Not sure about the appropriateness of your comments as a new comer to the site, but if the site doesn't allow it, you'll find out soon enough.

Mac

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#22557 - Wed Jan 11 2006 05:59 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
st.rod Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Feb 15 2002
Loc: Edgewater, Colorful Colorado
Cheese's site is just MELLOW
_________________________
In memory of DB 9/12/49 - 8/28/14

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#22558 - Wed Jan 11 2006 06:01 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
uwishuthoughtofit Offline
Member

Registered: Wed Jan 11 2006
Loc: great white north
Didn't mean to upset ya there Mac...just a small observation...

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#22559 - Wed Jan 11 2006 06:04 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
scootdog Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Wed Jun 05 2002
Loc: Parker, CO USA
You are correct that we don't want to judge without hearing the other side of the storry however I can speak about the bearcat and if Tway produces it then he got it from this site. There ARE NO other examples other then the one posted.

Research, old photos, etc my rear. Admit it the images of the originals were emailed to you.
_________________________
Scott
Wanted- Powerine and Powerlube items!

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#22560 - Wed Jan 11 2006 06:17 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
Mac Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Fri Sep 17 2004
Loc: Moline, IL, USA
uwishuthoughtofit,

Didn't upset me at all. I know what you meant. Just didn't want to see you get some folks upset on this site. It is a family type site and not sure how some might respond...that's all.

Scootdog,

At this point, I think we need to sit back and wait for T-Way's response. Where did the image come from to reproduce the image on a globe? That is a fairly easy question and I assume that T-Way will answer that question when he reads the many many posts on this issue. It's a great thing to have an opinion. I have mine, but I'd like to give T-Way a chance to speak up. After all, he did come to the table and admit that this topic was revolving around him when the initial post began.

Let the man speak..... T-Way WHERE ARE YOU!!!!

Mac

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#22561 - Wed Jan 11 2006 06:24 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
Seth Robbins Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Thu Dec 21 2000
Loc: Guthrie, OK. 73044
T-Way and I had a discussion about where he derived his images and I think he uses a conglomeration of different images to come up with his image. The reason we had this discussion was because I had one of his previous partners in my shop summer before last I remembered him taking a photograph of an old Boyle-Dayton skin I had with a nice PDQ decal on it. I never really thought of it until I saw some of the new PDQ stuff being reproduced. Fact of the matter is, I couldn't care less at the time, and now I couldn't care ANY MORE less.
Jim may or not respond, and don't think any less of him if he doesn't as I'm sure his attorney will ring his neck if he does.

[This message has been edited by Seth Robbins (edited 01-11-2006).]

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#22562 - Wed Jan 11 2006 06:28 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
roger cherry Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Thu Jul 04 2002
Loc: Collierville, Tn
I do want to clarify something. Just because I posted my globe on here I don't want anyone to think I am assuming he got it from here, just a chance. I went back and looked in my 1999 pink globe book by Benjamin/Henderson and sure enough there is a picture in there of Sam Blakely's globe like mine when west coast collector Tom Licouris owned it. I do believe though, that you are not supposed to reproduce anything out of that book either as it is copyrighted.

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#22563 - Wed Jan 11 2006 06:31 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
Seth Robbins Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Thu Dec 21 2000
Loc: Guthrie, OK. 73044
I don't think anyone thinks you are implying that Roger....I think more than anything you were pointing how petty of an issue this could degenerate into. If anybody knows about a lawsuit as it pertains to this hobby it's Roger Cherry. Heard you were moving Roger...email me @ robbins61@cox.net

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#22564 - Wed Jan 11 2006 06:33 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
RARIN TO GO Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Sat Aug 28 2004
Loc: Longmont, CO
With all due respect Seth you may not care now what happend with that PDQ image but someday you might want to make some. Maybe even one to put on a pump for yourself. Then you proudly post the picture of the pump in the Showcase and Stories section and then maybe you find yourself in court. Got to look at the big picture and where this could lead the hobby.
Looks like straight to court.

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#22565 - Wed Jan 11 2006 06:37 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
Mac Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Fri Sep 17 2004
Loc: Moline, IL, USA
"Conglomeration of images" sounds like fancy words "exact reproduction of an original" from what I've seen of the globe he's making. I'd still like to hear from T-Way. Not sure if my post on "fair use" has caused him to "clam up" or if he's not around to read these posts.

I would like T-Way to state here on this site where he obtained the images to reproduce the globe. "Conglomeration of images" just doesn't get it done for me. If I were to reproduce an image of a Wayne 60, I couldn't simply say that I arrived at an image of the Wayne 60 and copyrighted the image through a "conglomeration of images" if it looks identical to a Wayne 60. The shape and lines of a Wayne 60 is inherent to a Wayne 60 and no other pump. Hey.............an idea is emerging. Wonder if I can beat you all to the punch.

T-Way, please speak up. This is a very confusing topic. I'm not taking sides. I'm very interested in this topic. I have no sand in any hidden crevices and I am not on anyone's side regarding this issue.

Mac

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#22566 - Wed Jan 11 2006 06:40 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
kmann Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Tue Aug 26 2003
Loc: new york
very interesting... ALL the posts... good education... hey... if theres a buck in it and it is the American way well... why fault it... right ???... wrong in my world... you can go to court and argue morals and ethics but guess what ... you lose !!!... let the lawyers fight it out.. hell... if you win lose or draw.. guess what you can expect in the mail... right on... the lawyers bill... AND.... this is a hobby ????... guess again... got alot more to say but i don't feel like getting booted tonight....

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#22567 - Wed Jan 11 2006 06:42 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
uwishuthoughtofit Offline
Member

Registered: Wed Jan 11 2006
Loc: great white north
Mac...Thanks for clarifing that you have no sand hidden any where! You had me worried for a second! LOL (just kidding...)

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#22568 - Wed Jan 11 2006 06:43 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
Seth Robbins Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Thu Dec 21 2000
Loc: Guthrie, OK. 73044
I understand Rarin' To Go, what you are saying. It's just that I don't think I've ever assumed it would come to this. Like I said in earlier posts, I understand the ramifications of the outcome of this as it pertains to the whole hobby/industry. I for one am hoping for a peaceful resolution and that things can get back to normal around here. There dang sure isn't enough money in this stuff to be bringing lawyers into it.

[This message has been edited by Seth Robbins (edited 01-11-2006).]

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#22569 - Wed Jan 11 2006 06:51 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
RARIN TO GO Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Sat Aug 28 2004
Loc: Longmont, CO
Thats what I thought Seth. I mean about the money. So you make a limited run of 30 globes a spend the money to copyright it. Then you decide to go to court to protect your "copyright". I would think that there go the profits from the globe. Right to the lawyers and such.

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#22570 - Wed Jan 11 2006 07:11 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
blacktee Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Mon Jan 17 2005
Loc: Saline, Mi USA
HERE'S MY TWO CENTS

SOME OF YOU KNOW MY FEELINGS ALREADY ABOUT REPRODUCTIONS... HERE'S A THOUGHT ABOUT AN OLD THREAD DEALING WITH REPRODUCING GILL GLOBES.

WHEN WE GO TO AUCTIONS, CAN WE START TEARING A MANS GLOBE APART TO MAKE SURE IT'S REAL OR NOT. THIS IS EXACTLY WHERE THIS IS HEADING... YOU THINK I'M CRAZY ???

WATCH AND SEE...

THIS WHOLE THREAD, BOTH SIDES OF THE COIN ABOUT EVERYTHING, MAKE ME SICK TO MY STOMACH.

DOUG (BLACKTEE)

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#22571 - Wed Jan 11 2006 08:13 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
midway oil Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Thu May 23 2002
Loc: Illinois
Alex---NO WAY you are the fox...I was thinking of another person involved here....

Seth is right. For goodness sakes keep the lawyers out of this. Those guys are just bottom feeders and are destroying our American way of life---

This is a very interesting discussion. Opens lots of comments, a good many 'what if's' being presented here. Let's hear the truth. I'm like Mac....just WHERE did the Fyre Drop globe image come from? A conglomeration of ideas or whatever is awfully vague.....

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#22572 - Wed Jan 11 2006 08:19 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
tall49guy Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Wed Aug 24 2005
Loc: Reseda CA USA
In the end, if it involves control over producing items for sale, its about economics (money). Items that were in the public domain for sooo long should be left there. Others don't see in that way as there are "investments" involved, thus investments to protect. Limiting items almost always has the effect of driving prices up. Scarcity creates value to the beholder or to the person or person(s) who stand to reap the benefits of the scarcity. In my opinion, trends in the hobby that benefit as many as possible are desirable. Those trends or changes that do not benefit the majority in this hobby are less desirable. Hopefully the trends that are not beneficial to the majority will be few in number and weak.
_________________________
Dave Folck

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#22573 - Wed Jan 11 2006 08:20 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
tall49guy Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Wed Aug 24 2005
Loc: Reseda CA USA
In the end, if it involves control over producing items for sale, its about economics (money). Items that were in the public domain for sooo long should be left there. Others don't see it that way as there are "investments" involved, thus investments to protect. Limiting items almost always has the effect of driving prices up. Scarcity creates value to the beholder or to the person or person(s) who stand to reap the benefits of the scarcity. In my opinion, trends in the hobby that benefit as many as possible are desirable. Those trends or changes that do not benefit the majority in this hobby are less desirable. Hopefully the trends that are not beneficial to the majority will be few in number and weak.
_________________________
Dave Folck

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#22574 - Wed Jan 11 2006 08:54 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
Dick Bennett Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Oct 25 2000
Loc: Santa Paula, Calif
I've got a photo of the BLACK FRYE DROP globe in question BEFORE Sam bought it.

I received a photo of the BEARCAT, BEFORE the current onwner saw the door it is on.

I also took a picture of the pump with the PDQ decal BEFORE the person that sold it to Seth owned it [It's differant than the Globe]. I posted the PDQ globe picture on this site [FOR ALL TO ENJOY].

I posted a photo of my MOTOPOWER GASOLINE sign [only one known], that is pictured on a website that has plans for a future globe.

HARLEY NEVER did lic. their logo for the globes that were made, BUT they did TELL the maker to stop or GO TO COURT.

IF, you want to repoduce a globe or image for YOURSELF, nobody is going to haul you into court. BUT, if you repoduce a COPYRIGHT image to SELL or MASS PRODUCE, then you are LOOKING FOR TROUBLE.

Dick Bennett

[This message has been edited by Dick Bennett (edited 01-11-2006).]
_________________________
Reproduction/Fantasy Cans
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p2/oldegaspump/AllCansMASTERTHUMBNAIL_zps4bfdbbc7.jpg
Rnd Can Re-lids


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#22575 - Wed Jan 11 2006 09:04 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
st.rod Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Feb 15 2002
Loc: Edgewater, Colorful Colorado
If the LAW allows you or anyone to apply for copyright on an item and the owner has not, or has let it expire. XIN LOI If you and yours don't like the laws, ( And I don't always ) go about changing them or Shut The Front Door


Anyone got another post to talk about
_________________________
In memory of DB 9/12/49 - 8/28/14

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#22576 - Wed Jan 11 2006 09:14 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
59fairlane Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed May 18 2005
Loc: Interlaken, NY
WOW.....

Just spent a "litle" time reading through these posts. I'll say it again, WOW........

What the hey, I spent all that time reading, I'll add my two cents.

This had happened in other hobby areas. I am a diverse collector, Gas, Oil, Cars, Bottles, Soda, Antiques, Trains, Firearms, Decoys, you name it. I actually do some writing for a small soda pop magazine. I am also somewhat young, 36 with two young daughters, so my wallet is extremely limited and often empty.

I have one original globe (Mobil Special) that my dad gave me for Christmas one year that he actually traded a guy work (house painting) in order to get this globe for me. That globe will never leave my possession at any time. Common globe, not worth a ton, but to me.....priceless. That's what hobbies and collecting are all about.

When something you enjoy starts to get and feel like work, then it's no fun. The hobby is ruined for you.

Someone had a post about tearing apart a man's globe to see if it is a repo. Excellent point. Look at the classic car hobby for instance. This is where this will head, I see it at auctions all the time. Buyer beware.

I buy stuff because it strikes a passion within. Sometimes all I can do is admire other peoples stuff because I can't afford or find stuff like they have. That's cool. That's why I love this site and others like it. I hope it doesn't change.

There will always be people that are in it for the money and not the love of it. Those people are easy to pick out and I just won't buy from them no matter what. What's the point.

Great posts, great topic, don't let a few bad apples ruin it for everyone else.

Have a good night, God Bless.
_________________________
Always looking for Ithaca Gun and Lucky Sam soda items!!!



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#22577 - Wed Jan 11 2006 09:18 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
Seth Robbins Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Thu Dec 21 2000
Loc: Guthrie, OK. 73044
Thanks 59....I for one think that is a good place to leave things.

[This message has been edited by Seth Robbins (edited 01-11-2006).]

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#22578 - Wed Jan 11 2006 09:49 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
Aaron S. Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Tue Apr 26 2005
Loc: Wisconsin
Wow seems like this has turned in to more of a witch hunt than anything. Who are we to make judgements on other people motives. Really why does everyone care where he got the pictures? If anything it should be between Roger and anyone who has the glode or pictures of it and Tway, Not everyone who just feels like pickin sides and arguing. Everyone says dont let it go to the lawyers but its seems as if well have some ameture lawyers presenting a case trying to get other members to become the trial jury. There has already been a motion to suspend Tway from the site, i mean come on now. This is getting out of hand. Then people are saying they are afraid to post there pictures cause they are afraid that they will be stolen to make reproductions I guess if u feel that way then dont post your stuff, but that in it self hurts the hobby by not sharing info with other hobbyist. I personally think that rare globes need to be reproduced for the people that are in the hobby that love the old nostalgic look that cant afford to spend 5 grand on a single globe. The whole part about doing them as a limited run to drive there profits is a bunch of pooh. Things cost more to produce in smaller numbers hence the price goes up. a limited edition isnt an original but it give the buyer the personal satisfaction of knowing that he has something special that not everyone has. so whats wrong with running lense in lower numbers... for example lense from an west coast oil company may not be desirable to a collector on the east coast. So why print a million of one type of lense when odds are only a half a million people will buy it. Just like every thing else if it sells out then odds are there will be a second run.

To get back on track here I guess the thing that bothers me the most about this is the fact that It was said that people like this are killing the hobby, but the way i see it people like this are just providing affordable history to collectors that just plain enjoy the hobby and cant spend every dollar on it. The people that are infact hurting the hobby are those who spend crazy amounts of money and buy up every thing insight making items seem more rare and driving the market on stuff up. If there werent repo's done of these the hobby would be dominated by the rich. Dont get me wrong i would take an original over a repo any day. Some of the prices things go for and just plain the fact that there arent any more out there sometimes reproductions are the only way to go for the little guy. The comment about speaking with the wallet says alot about the hobby and where its heading already. This mind set is totally wrong and trying to sway others judgement on this matter isnt right. About the bearcat decal, do what u want get it pattended yourself if u dont want someone else to do it. You may have the only one posted on here but it doesnt mean its the only one out there and if some one pat. it to get it put out there for others to enjoy and makes a little money in the prossess who cares thats buisness its been goin on for hundreds of years. So if u want to keep it to your self the file for the pattend and if u dont the as they say " you snooze, you lose". Plus any way wut is all the talk about this anyway noone has repoped any yet so this all seems like a big what if. And if it happens and it is done in an illeagal manner deal with it then.

Wow that is the most ive typed in years! lol
probally alot of typos in there but oh well i never claimed to be a grammer teacher. Any way that is it for now. So dont anyone get mad at me for giving my opinions because thats what they are is "opinions".

Any way I hope this gets resolved before the site gets devide if half.

Thanks Aaron
_________________________
**

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#22579 - Wed Jan 11 2006 10:04 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
gasgeezer Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Wed Mar 20 2002
Loc: Hamilton Mt, USA
Whew! I feel like im in the 10th round of a title fight! Im just going to say, and i know a lot of you feel the same. I have some neat 1 of a kind items in my collection and know of lots of others around also. I quit sending in pics to old gas a long time ago because another fellow asked (and i thankfully declined) to repop a super rare lens i own.He mentioned that with the phot he had he could do it anyway but He was gratious enough not to do it and i thank him for that.He will know who he is! Thanx! Its this mentality that just because you have the laws in your favor, you can walk all over another person. That just "dont make it right". Search your own soul to see how you would want to be treated.

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#22580 - Wed Jan 11 2006 10:16 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
RARIN TO GO Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Sat Aug 28 2004
Loc: Longmont, CO
"About the bearcat decal, do what u want get it pattended yourself if u dont want someone else to do it."
I think the issue with the Powerine/Bearcat image is that me and many other Colorado collectors do NOT WANT IT COPYRIGHTED AT ALL!!! It is a wonderful logo and one that I and others feel should remain for others to use and even profit from if they want. I would just not want them to "copyright" it. I hear there IS a Bearcat image in the making and as much as I said wanted one when Thunder posted the pics and it was mentioned that a repo could be made I will not buy one that is copyrighted. I think the Speedway globe from colorado has already been copyrighted. I just want others to be able to use it as they have been free to do for decades without fear of being sued.
A limited run of 30 non-copyrighted globes will sell just as well and make someone just as much money and ensure that others can enjoy and even profit from it in the future.
It's an ethics thing for me. Just because it's legal don't make it right in my book.
Chris

[This message has been edited by RARIN TO GO (edited 01-11-2006).]

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#22581 - Wed Jan 11 2006 10:20 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
thermactor Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Apr 27 2005
Loc: Decatur, IL
If I had enough spare money lying around, I'd copyright images like the bearcat, and just not enforce it. I'd just let anyone use it as they pleased - that would be the true way to ensure that it always stays free.

Wes

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#22582 - Wed Jan 11 2006 10:21 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
scootdog Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Wed Jun 05 2002
Loc: Parker, CO USA
Well a few glasses of wine and I am now much happier.

All the new repo globes that are available is an asset to the hobby. I own one and even though the colors are wrong I still like it. My problem starts when the artist now controls all future products with that logo that he never thought of. He was just a duplicator and now he gets to have the say so and a percent of each item sold with that artwork? I am not sure who said the comment about there not being money in these items and I kinda agree. As far as a business goes this is not a high growth industry. So if not for profit why do it at all? Ego? I don't have the answer but I do have my opinion about the ramifications of this behavior. Ask your self this, why have pogo or slama not been brought into this conversation?

I don't dislike tway. I have never met the guy. I don't like his copied artwork and the copyright process that he is using not to protect his investment but to control this hobby.
_________________________
Scott
Wanted- Powerine and Powerlube items!

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#22583 - Wed Jan 11 2006 10:25 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
Dick Bennett Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Oct 25 2000
Loc: Santa Paula, Calif
Lets hear the OTHER side of the STORY.
WASN'T it a 3-SOME PARTNERSHIP ?
db
_________________________
Reproduction/Fantasy Cans
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p2/oldegaspump/AllCansMASTERTHUMBNAIL_zps4bfdbbc7.jpg
Rnd Can Re-lids


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#22584 - Wed Jan 11 2006 10:26 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
RARIN TO GO Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Sat Aug 28 2004
Loc: Longmont, CO
I'd do the same Wes. But would rather leave thing be.

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#22585 - Wed Jan 11 2006 10:35 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
scootdog Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Wed Jun 05 2002
Loc: Parker, CO USA
dick- lets not go there. I think they are still involved in the suit and they have made there choice to handle it it court.

If I am not beaten to the punch the bearcat globe will be made and sold for COST. No artist fees as I will be picking that up and then the artwork shared with anyone who wants it.
_________________________
Scott
Wanted- Powerine and Powerlube items!

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#22586 - Thu Jan 12 2006 01:02 AM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
sslick68 Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Mon Jan 24 2005
Loc: Rolla Mo
First of all I dont know why a company would only make one or two of something,the others just havent been found yet,new discoveries are found everyday.Maybe in a few rare cases this happens.Second I think that the only people getting hurt from this situation are the guys(roger and the Cali. guy) that actually own this particular globe as the value of it might decrease as a collector can now buy one for a couple hundred dollars.I think that maybe these guys deserve something?????This happened to the peddle planes and now Im stuck with an original one thats worth what a repro one is worth!My2cents

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#22587 - Thu Jan 12 2006 03:22 AM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
chadrock00 Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Nov 11 2005
Loc: Warsaw, Illinois
I believe that alot of the things that are being reproduced is just a reminder that there are people out there that will do anything for a buck. If you have to steal an image, then copyright it, you had better make sure that there are more than two in the entire world. Anybody with a 6th grade education could realize that. What Tway is doing is wrong, and he will get caught when the time is right, and we will be buying bootleg globes and other items at auction for little or nothing. I too am young at this game, only being 26, but I have seen the best at thier best and the worst at thier worst, however you want to put it. I have seen men with thier pants down, such as Tway, and has seen a fist fight in a hotel lobby. I would like to consider everyone on the petro collectors list as a friend, but it is hard to with people in our petro society like this. Let's have a good time at Columbia this week!

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#22588 - Thu Jan 12 2006 07:38 AM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
T-way Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Jul 24 2002
Loc: Riley, MI, USA
Good morning everyone.

I’m sorry to take so long to reply – but I’m usually not on the computer after about 2:30 in the afternoon.

I was not planning on re-visiting this issue, but there are a couple of questions that have been posed that I feel I should reply to. And I have a couple of questions and points to make.

--------------------------------------------

Roger:

You seem to feel that just because you own one of the only two known Fyre-Drop ‘black background’ globes that you can control the image. Not true. You own a globe. That’s it. You do not have a legal position to control the reproduction of that image.

You do however; automatically hold a copyright to any photos you take personally of your globe (or any photos you personally take of anybody else’s globe/sign/etc.). But you still only hold the copyright to the actual photo – not the art used to create the original lens – or the art used to create the reproduction lenses. If you send that photo to anyone, you loose control on how, or where, it might end up. After it is out of your possession, no one can tell who took the image unless you mark the photo itself. Professional photographers will generally put a mark on one of the lower corners to show ownership. This can be done electronically also.

To answer your question on where I obtained my reference material:
I used the image from the ‘pink’ book (page 40) for the proportions. I also used a picture that was sent to me of one of the original globes for clear reference on the lettering and ‘rays’. I am including the reference photo here for all to see.



I am not going to reveal who sent me the image as they don’t need to be crucified on this site. Just let me say that the person who sent me the image held the copyright to the photo since they took it personally. And they sent it to me to use as I saw fit.

And before anybody has a cow – the image in the ‘pink’ book is copyrighted to Benjamin and Henderson.

I did not reproduce the actual photograph from the book. I used the image for visual reference on the proportions of the artwork. Therefore, no copyright infringement. If I had reproduced the actual photograph from the book as a poster or whatever and offered the resulting item for sale, then I would have been infringing on their copyright.

I also did not reproduce the photo that was sent to me (but I was given permission to use it as I saw fit), so there is no infringement on that person’s copyright of their photo.

--------------------------------------------

I want to make this perfectly clear. If you take a photo of something, you ‘own’ the copyright to the photo only. Not the item or logo in the photo - just the resulting photographic image. Twenty people can take a shot of the same logo/item and they will all hold an automatic copyright to their photo(s). None of them will hold a copyright to the logo in the photo.

So to answer Mac’s question on whether or not I infringed on Roger’s copyrights. No, I did not since Roger has no copyright standing on the actual logo itself.

--------------------------------------------

Scootdog:
Once you create/borrow the artwork for the Powerine Bearcat decal and ‘publish’ it (produce an item for sale or show it on a web site as being for sale) you WILL have copyrighted the image to yourself. Copyright rights are automatic. Unless the image is currently under a copyright in which case, you will/would be infringing on the holder’s rights to the image.

And I will ask you again.

It's my understanding that the Bearcat image(s) you are attempting to recreate are under copyright and you are negotiating with the holder for the rights to reproduce them. Is this correct or is my information wrong?

If it's correct - what's the difference between them and me? The people you are dealing with didn't create the original artwork, they have just retained the rights to it through inheritance law.

--------------------------------------------

I want to reiterate that all the historical images produced by Mike Slama and Pogo are AUTOMATICALLY registered to them as soon as they ‘publish’ the image for sale. Therefore taking that image out of the ‘Public Domain’.

Just because they have not chosen to pursue legal remedies for any infringement is a moot point. They still hold the current copyrights to those images providing there were no current claims on the art. And I know Mike and Lance do their own research on copyright before they produce any new lenses. Therefore, I am confident that they are conduction business in a professional and legal manner.

--------------------------------------------

Finally, I’d like to address the question that was posed by Roger regarding his wanting to (possibly) make a couple of custom decals for a personal project.

I wouldn’t have any problem with that. Fifty of you guys can go ahead and make a couple of decals each for your own use and I won’t care. But if one person decides to make 100 decals and offer them for sale using my copyrighted image – then we got problems.

--------------------------------------------

This will be my last reply to this posting.

I feel that I have stated my position and have answered those questions that were still outstanding. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and everyone can choose to spend there money where they see fit.

I do find it curious though, the major complaint that has been posted is about the Fyre-Drop image. And that lens has been available for months now and has not sold out. It seems if it is as desirable as it appears from the postings here – it would have been snapped up by now.

That seems like a lot of complaining about something that wouldn’t exist for the average collector if I hadn’t stepped up to the plate and made some for the hobby.

Thank you all for your input on this issue.

Jim Treadway
_________________________


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#22589 - Thu Jan 12 2006 08:09 AM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
RARIN TO GO Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Sat Aug 28 2004
Loc: Longmont, CO
Probably that is true that if Scott makes a globe them it is somehow automaticly copyrighted but I also don't think Scott would decide "to pursue legal remedies for any infringement".
I used to think this was a fun hobby with great guys doing it. I still think that's mostly true but am learning fast that there's more to this hobby than collecting and making friends. There's lawyers and suing and court and it makes me mad that it has to be like that.
I'm done with this. I sleep well at night.
Later,
Chris

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#22590 - Thu Jan 12 2006 08:59 AM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
roger cherry Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Thu Jul 04 2002
Loc: Collierville, Tn
"If you send that photo to anyone, you loose control on how, or where, it might end up. After it is out of your possession, no one can tell who took the image unless you mark the photo itself." Ok T-way, what everyone read is a statement you just made. Several months ago, I tried to "help the hobby" by posting a photo of a "Sinclair Benzol" globe to help the globe of the month. I was told by the moderators and you I could not do that even though I owned the photo and it was freely given to me by the owner. I don't know if you and I are reading what you wrote up above but it sounds to me your statements were crossed up. You said several months ago that the owner of the globe owned the copyrights, now you are saying that whoever owns the picture has the copyrights. Whatever.
I want to say this and I am done here and will not post on this again.
I don't give a rat's $#& where you got the picture to make the globe. I put my picture on this site for everyone to enjoy, period. I will keep posting pictures of my stuff on this site even though people may want to reproduce them, I don't care. I think the problem everyone has T-way, is NOT you repoping something, it is this **** about the copyrighting. Everyone knows since there are only two Fyre-Drop originals out there, not everyone will get the chance to see it unless someone like me will post a picture.
Now, last but not least, let me be clear here, LITIGATION STINKS!!! I am going out on a limb here, but I even think Scott Benjamin will agree, NO GOOD CAN COME FROM IT!!!!!!!! It has done nothing but hurt the hobby. I here you saying how you got the image, but am not buying it, sorry. I don't think a jury would either. I don't think Scott will pursue it, but he has just as good a case against you as you do against DB. I like you t-way, but litigation is a dead end street. I can speak with authority on that!! I just won't let myself be bullied, never have, never will!!! Over and out everyone

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#22591 - Thu Jan 12 2006 09:11 AM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
scootdog Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Wed Jun 05 2002
Loc: Parker, CO USA
Well I would like to thank Jim(tway) for responding to this thread. You answered all our questions and we now understand you a little better. Even thought most don't agree with your actions you did take the time to intelligently respond and again I thank you for that.

In my business I have to operate with lots of contracts as a persons word is easily twisted in court. In fact my company ensures that I not only follow the laws of the land but also a strict ethics code that addresses most of what we covered here. Jim I know you said you were done posting but will you commit to not using images posted on oldgas for your copyright library? I understand if you find them in an original photo but will you refrain from using any images that are posted on oldgas?

As far as the bearcat goes I have not answered your questions with good reason. Know this, when I spoke to the artist's family about reproducing the artwork there was no discussion of how much royalty but instead how can they buy one for their office.

I wonder now if slama and pogo are going to sue each other as they both have duplicate images that they use for their lenses. Or have they both understood that the images do not belong to them but rather this hobby.
_________________________
Scott
Wanted- Powerine and Powerlube items!

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#22592 - Thu Jan 12 2006 09:29 AM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
LarryIvy Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Fri Feb 09 2001
Loc: gilbert, az 85298
Jim,
What Lance and Mike have done or not done is not a moot point. As people with good business sense, they know there is not enough $$ profit involved in all this short run globe and decal stuff to fight over or MAKE ENEMIES over ! I just spent 3 or 4 grand making 6 screen color lenses, water decals, etc. so I know what is involved and what it costs. Do I care if somebody cranks out another 100 of them? Hell no because they will sit forever before they get their money back and it doesn't make mine worth 1 penny less.
And as for the reason the fyredrop hasn't sold out: In case you havn't noticed, its tough to sell lenses at $175-$185 a pair let alone $250. Add $100 for a body to that and it makes a very expensive item for most.
Larry Ivy
PremoPetrol
_________________________
larry ivy

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#22593 - Thu Jan 12 2006 10:16 AM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
JimT Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Dec 06 2002
Loc: Cleveland,Ohio U.S.A.
Hi--In a way protecting the image of rarer items from being over produced may not be such a bad thing (in my opinion only) I have a fair size collection of various back-lit ad clocks. When all those unmarked repop faces crashed onto the scene about 8 or so years ago any yahoo can go to their computer and order a clock with a desirable art and order one.(cheaply) Worse yet they're (no names) putting them on old cases and works. Alot of people don't even know that they have a repro on their wall. Especialy when bought at auction or shop and payed for an original price,Kinda takes the warm feeling out of them for me anyway. Like going to CVS instead of the corner drug store.
Were those old images Dr. Pepper Pepsi Mobil etc. etc. pirated? I've often wondered how someone could profit off images of large companies who are still in business.
I really do'nt like repops but understand the demand for them. Just when you flood the market it seems to cheapen the hobby.
Look at the price of a used Harley now. They're dropping. Speaking of that it's really warm out there today.........See Ya! Jim

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#22594 - Thu Jan 12 2006 02:20 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
Brian Harris Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Thu Jan 25 2001
Loc: Grand Rapids, MI. USA
If you're of faith, you know we really dont own or control anything.

I am the custodian of a very rare globe lens... just the single lens.

I would share a picture of it with T-way in a heartbeat cuz: 1) he's likely only to make a limited run in order to ensure the value of his repops versus the diminished value of mass production, 2) his LIMITED run would by no means reduce the value of the rare ORIGINAL, 3)his copyright would protect us both from devalued mass production, 4) I need a single lens as a place holder until I can find/afford an original, and 5) I truely doubt he would ever mount the cost or energy to pursue me legally if I chose to make a handful of tinkets/trash/decals to use personally or share/trade/sell with friends.

What I've learned (valuable) he is that if I did ever commercially (for volume and profit) produce/reproduce copyrightable stuff, I sure as heck better check for ownership.

Lastly, let me say that I dont always root for the "underdog" because all to often they deserve to be where they are. However, I abore wrongful and overzealous pursecution. To characterize T-way as a 'bad apple', or to imply that he is a thief is a shameful act.

And for a balanced record, consider that just because your postcount on this topic may be high, doesnt mean that 'most here at oldgas.com think what you (T-way) has done is wrong'. The majority of members were publically silent on this matter.

Cheers to all from this longtime lurker and occassional poster... Brian

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#22595 - Thu Jan 12 2006 02:30 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
djhubba Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Jan 24 2003
Loc: Seattle WA
I like this statement:

"I abore wrongful and overzealous pursecution. To characterize T-way as a 'bad apple', or to imply that he is a thief is a shameful act".


------------------
Hubba: GAS GEEK , OIL FREAK and humble moderator
_________________________
Hubba: GAS GEEK , OIL FREAK of Seattle WA

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#22596 - Thu Jan 12 2006 02:36 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
Lastgas15 Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Mon Mar 04 2002
Loc: illinois
I'm going to comment on this against my better judgement.
First off, the person that took the photo of the Sinclair Benzol (apparently the copyright holder of that photo) didn't want it published.
Secondly, Copyright law aside, its the policy of this site that images of items won't be posted here against the wishes of those that own the items. So in the case of the Sinclair Benzol globe even if copyright wasn't an issue, privacy was.

As for where the Fyre Drop image came from.
It didn't come from this site.

I don't know the particulars of the lawsuit and I don't care to. The courts will decide who is right or wrong. Its easy for us to say what we would or wouldn't do, or what someone else should or shouldn't do. Fact is if we're not the parties in the lawsuit we don't have enough information to make that judgement.

Copyright and trademark infringment are serious issues. A great deal of money is spent on legal fees protecting those images.
_________________________
Wanted: Gas pump globes:Sinclair & affiliates, IL companies. Ripple bodies. Anything Sinclair, Stoll, Pierce, 4 Bros.


http://www.lastgas15.com/

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#22597 - Thu Jan 12 2006 03:06 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
Pogo's Garage Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Tue Jun 01 2004
Loc: British Columbia - Canada
I wasn't going to comment, and this will be my only post.

One Vital piece of information is missing, Why did Jim Copyright these images? If you knew Why, and Why he is now forced to defend those copyrights, you would have a different perspective, and almost certainly, a radically different opinion regarding this subject. Jim is only responding to events forced upon him, he didn't initiate them. As a matter of law he can't come out and expalin Why, but I Guarantee it has nothing to do with Profits or Control. While he has taken the high road and remained silent regarding the earlier related events, others have not, and have subsequently forced this subject on a jury of his peers, who are judging him based on unfounded Rumors and Innuendo.

I second Hubba's observation of this earlier posted statement.
"I abore wrongful and overzealous pursecution. To characterize T-way as a 'bad apple', or to imply that he is a thief is a shameful act".


------------------


Good Luck on the Hunt
Lance / The Pogo Man

EDITED FOR SPELLING ONLY, CONTENT REMAINS THE SAME.

[This message has been edited by PogoGas.com (edited 01-12-2006).]
_________________________

Visit our Website or FaceBook Page

Lance @ Pogos Garage


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#22598 - Thu Jan 12 2006 03:32 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
LarryIvy Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Fri Feb 09 2001
Loc: gilbert, az 85298
Bob,
The topic of discussion is Jim's position as stated in his above post. I dont give a tinkers damn what the lawsuit is about or who
wins/loses nor am I picking sides. We aren't prejudging anyone, his position is clearly stated by Jim above if you bothered to read it. I dont need the results of the lawsuit or You for that matter to determine what is detremental to my area of the hobby. I am abiding by the rules of discourse on this site and I will continue to voice my position here without being lectured on something you know little about.
Larry Ivy
PremoPetrol

Larry Ivy
Premopetrol
_________________________
larry ivy

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#22599 - Thu Jan 12 2006 03:35 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
Seth Robbins Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Thu Dec 21 2000
Loc: Guthrie, OK. 73044
I corresponded with T-Way this morning and while I'm not choosing sides nor assigning blame in his pending suit with his former partners, I do not think it is his intention to lay claim to a bunch of images just to hold them hostage. Rather, I believe this is an issue of an agreement gone bad between parties and the copyrights have ended up being T-Way's defense. Both sides of this equation are good people who I hope can work out their differences without much harm done. My last post also, Seth Robbins

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#22600 - Thu Jan 12 2006 03:38 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
thermactor Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Apr 27 2005
Loc: Decatur, IL
Wow, this thread keeps taking turns for the worse...

I think there's enough information and opinion here for everyone who reads it to draw their own personal conclusions.

I think it's a good time for this thread to end, and not to escalate any further.

Come one guys, let's just leave this particular thread as it lies...

Wes

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#22601 - Thu Jan 12 2006 04:06 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
Lastgas15 Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Mon Mar 04 2002
Loc: illinois
Bob,
The topic of discussion is Jim's position as stated in his above post. I dont give a tinkers damn what the lawsuit is about or who
wins/loses nor am I picking sides. We aren't prejudging anyone, his position is clearly stated by Jim above if you bothered to read it. I dont need the results of the lawsuit or You for that matter to determine what is detremental to my area of the hobby. I am abiding by the rules of discourse on this site and I will continue to voice my position here without being lectured on something you know little about.
Larry Ivy
PremoPetrol
Larry Ivy
Premopetrol

Larry,
We all know that because of the ongoing litigation that niether Jim nor the other parties can speak freely about the lawsuit.
Some were condemning Jim strictly because he filed the lawsuit. That is unfair. Those people likely don't know all of the underlying reasons for the suit. I am concerned at how events like this and other lawsuits will affect ALL AREAS OF THE HOBBY, not just my area of the hobby. As more people make all or part of their living from the peroliana hobby/business these disputes will become more commonplace. Seth's post following yours hit the nail on the head. Here it is in case you missed it.

"I corresponded with T-Way this morning and while I'm not choosing sides nor assigning blame in his pending suit with his former partners, I do not think it is his intention to lay claim to a bunch of images just to hold them hostage. Rather, I believe this is an issue of an agreement gone bad between parties and the copyrights have ended up being T-Way's defense. Both sides of this equation are good people who I hope can work out their differences without much harm done. My last post also, Seth Robbins"


[This message has been edited by Lastgas15 (edited 01-12-2006).]
_________________________
Wanted: Gas pump globes:Sinclair & affiliates, IL companies. Ripple bodies. Anything Sinclair, Stoll, Pierce, 4 Bros.


http://www.lastgas15.com/

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#22602 - Thu Jan 12 2006 04:39 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
Jarvis Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Nov 01 2000
Loc: Evansville, In
LOL.... you guys are killing me. I can't believe i just sat and read all of this. That an hour of my life i can't get back. LOL

You guys with the repro stuff seem as though you don't have much fun anymore.
I am glad i don't mess with repro stuff!
I will stick with original!
_________________________
Looking for anything from Hoosier Pete, Platolene 500 and Red Bird.

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#22603 - Thu Jan 12 2006 04:48 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
gasoildude Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Mon Nov 29 2004
Loc: Oneida IL USA
Ditto JJ Ditto
_________________________
Wanted Owens Motor Oil & Mobiloil Gargoyle.
Brad Ralston & my website is
www.petrobarn.com

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#22604 - Thu Jan 12 2006 05:29 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
LarryIvy Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Fri Feb 09 2001
Loc: gilbert, az 85298
BOB,
I AM NOT CONDEMING JIM BECAUSE HE FILED A LAWSUIT ! " I DON'T CARE.... "

1) FOR LOGOS HE CUSTOM MADE WITH NEW GRAPHICS, COLORS, DESIGN, HE HAS EVERY RIGHT TO COPYRIGHT AND SELL SOMETHING HE CREATED.

2) I DO NOT BELIEVE HE HAS THE ETHICAL RIGHT TO OWN AN OLD ORIGINAL IMAGE THAT HAS BEEN PUBLIC DOMAIN FOR EVERYONE TO USE AND THAT HE DID NOT CREATE !!!!! IT SETS A VERY DANGEROUS PRECEDENT AND HAS ALREADY HAD A DEFINITE COOLING EFFECT ON REPRODUCTION GLOBES.

3) I'M NOT JUDGING HIM ANYWAY, I AM SAYING WHAT HE IS DOING IS HURTING MY ABILITY TO PARTICIPATE IN THE HOBBY AT WHATEVER LEVEL I CHOSE !

4) IF I AM THE ONLY ONE ALLOWED TO MAKE SOMETHING THE CONSUMER WILL PAY MORE, NOT COPYRIGHT LAW, ECONOMICS 101.

5)IF I AM THE ONLY ONE LICENSED TO MAKE SOMETHING AND THE $ RETURN DOESN'T SATISFY ME...IT WON'T GET MADE.

6)IF YOU, HUBBA, LANCE, AND SETH ARE SO CONVINCED THAT THIS IS A JUSTIFIABLE ACTION RELATIVE TO DEFENDING THE LAWSUIT, THEN WE SHOULD NOT SEE ANYMORE COPYRIGHT GRABS OF OLD EXISTANT LOGOS SUBEQUENT TO THIS LAWSUIT ? RIGHT ? I THINK YOU ALREADY HAVE EGG ON YOUR FACES.

LARRY IVY
_________________________
larry ivy

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#22605 - Thu Jan 12 2006 05:37 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
LarryIvy Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Fri Feb 09 2001
Loc: gilbert, az 85298
JJ, et al
Some Hobbiest build cars and drive them.
Some collect the hood ornaments.
.

Larry Ivy
Premopetrol
_________________________
larry ivy

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#22606 - Thu Jan 12 2006 05:50 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
Lastgas15 Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Mon Mar 04 2002
Loc: illinois
2) I DO NOT BELIEVE HE HAS THE ETHICAL RIGHT TO OWN AN OLD ORIGINAL IMAGE THAT HAS BEEN PUBLIC DOMAIN FOR EVERYONE TO USE AND THAT HE DID NOT CREATE !!!!!

6)IF YOU, HUBBA, LANCE, AND SETH ARE SO CONVINCED THAT THIS IS A JUSTIFIABLE ACTION RELATIVE TO DEFENDING THE LAWSUIT, THEN WE SHOULD NOT SEE ANYMORE COPYRIGHT GRABS OF OLD EXISTANT LOGOS SUBEQUENT TO THIS LAWSUIT ? RIGHT ? I THINK YOU ALREADY HAVE EGG ON YOUR FACES.

LARRY IVY

Defending someone's right to file a lawsuit doesn't have anything to do with what you feel is ethical. Jim is within his legal rights to file a lawsuit. I never mentioned whether I thought what he was doing was ethical or not. I did say that people shouldn't condemn him just because he filed a lawsuit. No one but those involved know all of the reasons that lead to the lawsuit.

As far as how copyrighting affects the hobby....well lets just say that we probably haven't heard the last about this subject!
_________________________
Wanted: Gas pump globes:Sinclair & affiliates, IL companies. Ripple bodies. Anything Sinclair, Stoll, Pierce, 4 Bros.


http://www.lastgas15.com/

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#22607 - Thu Jan 12 2006 06:05 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
Kysoilman Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Sun Apr 22 2001
Loc: Owenton, KY U.S.A.
....
JJ, et al
Some Hobbiest build cars and drive them.
Some collect the hood ornaments.
.
Larry Ivy
Premopetrol

JUST BECAUSE JJ LIKES ORGINAL STUFF IS NO REASON FOR YOU TO PUT HIM OR ANYONE ELSE DOWN...... WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR THE HOBBY LATELY..?
............

Rex..I edited your post a bit but left the content. Thanks for understanding my friend.
hubba
REX LIKES THIS HOBBY

[This message has been edited by djhubba (edited 01-12-2006).]

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#22608 - Thu Jan 12 2006 06:21 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
LarryIvy Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Fri Feb 09 2001
Loc: gilbert, az 85298
Bob,

You totally missed my point, if these copyrights were merely a defense in this lawsuit they shouldn't be necessary once this lawsuit is settled ? Right BOB ? What would be the use in grabbing something not relative to this case ?
Also I apologize to you because it does effect you as a globe or sign collector. Any progress in marking Limited repro runs will go back underground to hamper traceability.
Larry Ivy
Premopetrol
_________________________
larry ivy

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#22609 - Thu Jan 12 2006 06:23 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
BLange Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Wed Oct 12 2005
Loc: Cedar Rapids, IA
Anyone got a bet when this ones gonna get locked?
_________________________
Always looking for SKELLY items.

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#22610 - Thu Jan 12 2006 06:28 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
LarryIvy Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Fri Feb 09 2001
Loc: gilbert, az 85298
KYSOIL
Its very interesting to see how you interpret my statement as a put down but JJ's wasn't ? I guess its all about whose ox is being gored ?

Petty namecalling aside, I'm not here lauding what I have done for the hobby, I'm defending my right to participate at what ever level I see fit, not what someone forces on me. If my position offends you, start another thread where you can all hold hands and sing.

Larry Ivy
PremoPetrol
_________________________
larry ivy

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#22611 - Thu Jan 12 2006 06:29 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
Lastgas15 Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Mon Mar 04 2002
Loc: illinois
Bob,
You totally missed my point, if these copyrights were merely a defense in this lawsuit they shouldn't be necessary once this lawsuit is settled ? Right BOB ? What would be the use in grabbing something not relative to this case ?
Also I apologize to you because it does effect you as a globe or sign collector. Any progress in marking Limited repro runs will go back underground to hamper traceability.
Larry Ivy
Premopetrol
Larry,
Do you REALLY think the underlying reasons for the lawsuit are about copyright? Or do you think thats just a byproduct of the company splitting up.
Also, I don't remember reading where anyone disagreed with you on how this affects the hobby.
_________________________
Wanted: Gas pump globes:Sinclair & affiliates, IL companies. Ripple bodies. Anything Sinclair, Stoll, Pierce, 4 Bros.


http://www.lastgas15.com/

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#22612 - Thu Jan 12 2006 06:30 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
djhubba Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Jan 24 2003
Loc: Seattle WA
Lets express our views nicely guys..i am still at work and trying to keep up my moderation duties while manning the tattoo shop as well..LOL. Some of you post quicker than i can moderate...LOL

------------------
Hubba: GAS GEEK , OIL FREAK and humble moderator
_________________________
Hubba: GAS GEEK , OIL FREAK of Seattle WA

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#22613 - Thu Jan 12 2006 06:35 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
LarryIvy Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Fri Feb 09 2001
Loc: gilbert, az 85298
Do you REALLY think the underlying reasons for the lawsuit are about copyright? Or do you think thats just a byproduct of the company splitting up.

No Bob, I think the reason for filing copyright is incidental to the lawsuit and will continue. I actually hope it doesn't.

Again, I'm not prejudging any legal action,
I just don't agree with what Jim is doing in one instance. I don't dislike him, I just don't support what he is doing and I have as much right to defend my position as he does his. Actually I was wanting to see how long we could discuss something on this site without the namecalling. If you want, you can ban me and I promise I will wear it like a badge of honor. Dwaine will be jealous !

PremoPetrol (edited 01-12-2006).]

[This message has been edited by PremoPetrol (edited 01-12-2006).]
_________________________
larry ivy

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#22614 - Thu Jan 12 2006 06:51 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
59fairlane Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed May 18 2005
Loc: Interlaken, NY
Time to bury this horse then bury the shovel......
_________________________
Always looking for Ithaca Gun and Lucky Sam soda items!!!



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#22615 - Thu Jan 12 2006 07:21 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
Jarvis Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Nov 01 2000
Loc: Evansville, In
I see were still having fun!

I want to add to your post Larry... i like original hood ornaments and not those cheap repro ones.

....................
Jarvis likes Rex!
_________________________
Looking for anything from Hoosier Pete, Platolene 500 and Red Bird.

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#22616 - Thu Jan 12 2006 07:25 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
THE AMERICAN GARAGE Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Jun 02 2004
Loc: PECONIC BAY, L.I., NY, USA
"AMEN" AS THE PRAYER ENDED AND THE CHURCH DOORS FLEW OPEN AND EVERYONE LEFT TOGETHER AND WENT THEIR SEPARATE WAYS IN THE HOBBY CALLED "PETROLIANA."

PLEASE LOCK THIS DRIBBLE......ER, THREAD.....PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE LOCK IT!

DOC
_________________________
DOC @ THE AMERICAN GARAGE

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#22617 - Thu Jan 12 2006 07:40 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
racemad55 Offline
Active Member

Registered: Tue May 11 2004
Loc: Lake Luzerne Ny
Doc,you can do whatever you want to with those pictures I sent of my big SOCONY billboard sign,even paint a copy,enjoy!

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#22618 - Thu Jan 12 2006 07:50 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
THE AMERICAN GARAGE Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Jun 02 2004
Loc: PECONIC BAY, L.I., NY, USA
THANKS FOR THE NOD, RACEMAD55....AT LEAST YOU PUT THAT IN WRITING WITH ALL THESE WITNESSES

DOC
_________________________
DOC @ THE AMERICAN GARAGE

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#22619 - Thu Jan 12 2006 08:05 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
Pablo Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Thu Jan 13 2005
Loc: El Dorado Hills, CA
This long and ugly thread makes me want to puke!! In the overall scheme of things, the actual money involved in this dispute is most likely trivial, particularly in comparison to what the attorneys are going to make off it. I just hope that those deemed to be unethical eventually take it in the shorts.

To all, grow up and get a life! At this point, I'm certainly glad I only collect originals!!

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#22620 - Thu Jan 12 2006 08:21 PM Re: Where is this hobby headed?
djhubba Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Jan 24 2003
Loc: Seattle WA
I think all who wanted to express an opinion has done so. Thanks for all who gave thier opinions and T-Way for responding and all who were patient with the moderators.

Moderating others posts is not as easy as one may think. We want to have a friendly forum where everyone can express thier opinion without it turning nasty. We dont like to edit, lock or delete but sometimes its necessary for the good of the Oldgas community. I feel this thread has run its course. Thanks again for your understanding.

------------------
Hubba: GAS GEEK , OIL FREAK and humble moderator
_________________________
Hubba: GAS GEEK , OIL FREAK of Seattle WA

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