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Re: IT's RIP OFF TIME AGAIN!!!!!! #23795
Sun May 27 2007 08:47 AM
Sun May 27 2007 08:47 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,272
Longview, WA
Bob Richards Offline
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Longview, WA
Midway, we tried a national speedlimit here in the states from the mid 70's through mid 90's, didn't work. I raced for years all over the world, including Germany. There ARE big trucks on the road on Sat and Sun. Every race team moves their vehicles by transport. BMW and VW move their vehicles by transport as well as rail, same as here. And unless something drastic has happened, there is the Autobohn. And unless I'm mistaken, and on this I'm not.. Germany is in a tighter squeeze when it comes to Oil related problems than the US. Their economy is not as robust nor can it handle a hit from rising oil prices as our economy can. Nothing in this world is black or white, especially rising prices. And econ 101 principles won't cut it. The Business Schools of the world, as well as every government, have been working on these problems in earnest since the early 70's and the problem hasn't been solved yet. You loose those you are trying to reach when you call them names, they dismiss you as someone who holds no credible weight.
Bob
PS: gas prices here have fallen from 3.46 to 3.22 in the last week. Supply is the same, travel is the same, gas mixture is the same. State says they are taking a hard look at the Oil Companies and now Congress is too. Strange how prices fell when that happened.


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Re: IT's RIP OFF TIME AGAIN!!!!!! #23796
Sun May 27 2007 09:14 AM
Sun May 27 2007 09:14 AM
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Posts: 485
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Pablo Offline
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Bob: "And econ 101 principles won't cut it. The Business Schools of the world, as well as every government, have been working on these problems in earnest since the early 70's and the problem hasn't been solved yet."

What problem?? Left alone, the free market will properly allocate resources, all resources not just oil. Government efforts to control markets have always failed and always will.

By the way, I heard no public outcry from the ordinary citizen when crude oil prices collapsed in 1986 and stayed low throughout the 1990's. Tens of thousands of employees lost their jobs and hundreds of companies went bankrupt in the oil patch. Of course, this helped to plant the seeds for the next supply side shortage. The history of the oil business is boom and bust. However, the function of markets is to properly allocate resources through good and bad times. Governments will never efficiently replace the market place.

Re: IT's RIP OFF TIME AGAIN!!!!!! #23797
Sun May 27 2007 11:06 AM
Sun May 27 2007 11:06 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,272
Longview, WA
Bob Richards Offline
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Longview, WA
Paul, What problem???? According to the UN,EU,Congress of the US and OPEC there is a problem with escalating fuel related costs for the economies of both developing and established countries. Again,freshman economics, isn't what the world is run on. As to Oil prices collapsing, please point to when that happened, according to the GAO it didn't. Prices fell after Opec couldn't control their members and each sold oil as a "free market" commodity at differing prices. The Oil Companies here in the US did get subsidies, which they still collect even now. In the 1970's OPEC flexed it's collected muscle and caused a false fluctuation in the marketplace. Big Oil was able to do this again in the 1990's and it continues to this day. Now as a driver I complain about rising prices along with everyone else, as a stockholder in 4 different Oil Corporations I very much enjoy the dividends. I guess I am a hypocrite when it comes to fuel costs. Every business owner who has a fleet of vehicles becomes an economist. And they deal with real life economics, not theory. Oil is not and has never been a real "free market commondity", it has been and is manipulated by cartels. Whether Standard Oil in the 1920's, Big Oil in the 30's-60's, OPEC in the '70's or Big Oil and OPEC now. And yes Paul, I do have degrees, no not in Economics. But my post-grad degree in Business is from a pretty good school, the Univ. of WA.


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Re: IT's RIP OFF TIME AGAIN!!!!!! #23798
Sun May 27 2007 06:59 PM
Sun May 27 2007 06:59 PM
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Posts: 485
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Pablo Offline
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Bob, if you’re trying to argue a point try to at least bring some facts to the table.

Bob comment: “And yes Paul, I do have degrees, no not in Economics. But my post-grad degree in Business is from a pretty good school, the Univ. of WA.”

Well, as a supposedly highly educated individual, you should know to do adequate research and the requisite homework about topics you know nothing about before spouting off and placing foot in mouth!!

For you or anyone else with an interest, here’s a link to some historical data and information on crude oil pricing and the “boom & bust” cycles. Scroll down for more detail on the 1986 price collapse…
http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm

Bob comment: “The Oil Companies here in the US did get subsidies, which they still collect even now.”

Totally false. The only thing major oil companies ever get remotely close to a subsidy is accelerated tax depreciation for capital expenditures. And of course, most other industries also use the available tax law and some pay no taxes at all!! Major oil companies pay income taxes at approx. 37%. Do your homework.

Bob comment: “In the 1970's OPEC flexed it's collected muscle and caused a false fluctuation in the marketplace. Big Oil was able to do this again in the 1990's and it continues to this day.”

So, are you talking about OPEC or “big oil”?? OPEC proved that cartels can only work for short periods of time but will eventually fail. Witness the collapse of crude oil prices in the late 1980’s through the 1990’s. Still don’t believe prices collapsed and stayed low?? Heavy crude oil in California fell to $6.00 per barrel in 1998 and many producers LOST money and some failed. Again, do your homework.

Bob comment: “Oil is not and has never been a real "free market commondity (sic)", it has been and is manipulated by cartels.”

Yeah? News to me. Crude oil and natural gas have been totally free market commodities since Ronald Reagan deregulated the oil & gas markets in the early 1980’s. Prior to that, crude oil and natural gas were both regulated by U.S. agencies with poor results. With no price incentives, the drilling rig count dropped and production declined. Paradoxically, when controls were lifted production increased and within a few years prices collapsed before finding equilibrium. Of course, the educated economist could have predicted that the free market would work much more efficiently than a regulated market. Again, do your homework.

Bob comment: “Now as a driver I complain about rising prices along with everyone else, as a stockholder in 4 different Oil Corporations I very much enjoy the dividends. I guess I am a hypocrite when it comes to fuel costs.”

Yes, you ARE a hypocrite!!

Wake up and smell the coffee. The price at the pump WILL rise and fall with supply and demand. I can assure you that it will rise more than it falls in your remaining lifetime. The American love affair with cheap gasoline is over. Get used to it.

Re: IT's RIP OFF TIME AGAIN!!!!!! #23799
Sun May 27 2007 07:25 PM
Sun May 27 2007 07:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 761
Cedar Rapids, IA
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BLange Offline
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Cedar Rapids, IA
"Totally false. The only thing major oil companies ever get remotely close to a subsidy is accelerated tax depreciation for capital expenditures. And of course, most other industries also use the available tax law and some pay no taxes at all!! Major oil companies pay income taxes at approx. 37%. Do your homework."


That's not totally true, some (most) of the big oil companies enroll in the Pick program. Land that has never been farmed but some how slips in as land set aside as farm land. Oil companies have the largest % of land in the Pick program. Yes the Pick program is a subsidy. Not to start an all out war on this forum over high gas prices. But there is much more to it than supply and demand curves. And yes I did graduate from college with a business degree.

What does this have to do with high gas prices, nothing, just another example of how Big Oil is making money off tax payers.

Brian


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Re: IT's RIP OFF TIME AGAIN!!!!!! #23800
Sun May 27 2007 07:41 PM
Sun May 27 2007 07:41 PM
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Posts: 2,702
Saline, Mi USA
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blacktee Offline
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Saline, Mi USA
Sounds like some you belong on Capital Hill, you'd fit right in !!! LOL

T

Re: IT's RIP OFF TIME AGAIN!!!!!! #23801
Sun May 27 2007 07:56 PM
Sun May 27 2007 07:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,807
7 miles from Texas in Louisian...
texaspelican Offline OP
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texaspelican  Offline OP
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7 miles from Texas in Louisian...
This is getting out of hand.....

Paddy

WTB Billups, Rose, Canal, and
CHEAP GAS!!!!!!


Paddy
Wanted. Billups, Ride with Rose, Har-V, LORECO, STANOCOLA, Pan Am (early), Hurricane, Evangeline, Canal, Gulf Coast, oil companies.
Re: IT's RIP OFF TIME AGAIN!!!!!! #23802
Sun May 27 2007 07:59 PM
Sun May 27 2007 07:59 PM
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Posts: 2,702
Saline, Mi USA
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blacktee Offline
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Saline, Mi USA
I'm with Paddy lock this **** up !!!!

Re: IT's RIP OFF TIME AGAIN!!!!!! #23803
Sun May 27 2007 08:03 PM
Sun May 27 2007 08:03 PM
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Posts: 485
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Pablo Offline
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Brian,
Let's hear more about this so-called Pick land program. For instance, just how and what do major oil companies get from this program and how do they make money from it?

Without further information, this is just more hollow nonsense about how oil companies rule the world, rape the land and pick the pockets of all the "little people"!!

Re: IT's RIP OFF TIME AGAIN!!!!!! #23804
Sun May 27 2007 08:08 PM
Sun May 27 2007 08:08 PM
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Posts: 485
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Pablo Offline
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Out of hand? Lock it up??

Probably better. Then everybody can go back and believe their fairy tales, conspriacy theories and other nonsense that won't hold up to any legitimate scrutiny. But I guess if you believe, it must be true!!

Re: IT's RIP OFF TIME AGAIN!!!!!! #23805
Sun May 27 2007 08:26 PM
Sun May 27 2007 08:26 PM
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Posts: 761
Cedar Rapids, IA
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BLange Offline
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Sounds like you’re the only one getting pissy about it. I offered a fact, and you seem not to like it and now you want the topic locked.

I was doing a term paper and stumbled on the Pick/Oil Co. thing, if you want to know more (as you have said) do your homework.

Done with this topic.


Brian


Always looking for SKELLY items.
Re: IT's RIP OFF TIME AGAIN!!!!!! #23806
Sun May 27 2007 08:47 PM
Sun May 27 2007 08:47 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,913
Guthrie, OK. 73044
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Seth Robbins Offline
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Guthrie, OK. 73044
What is going on in this thread is a lot of what is actually going on in a lot of "oil & gas" states such as Oklahoma (where I am at) & Texas (where Pablo is at). Obviously there is a lot of disdain around about high prices, but it seems like there are about 1 in every 3 people in my area that are affected positively by the surge in drilling caused by the higher prices.
For example, one of the moms at my kid's school has like 3 sets of mineral rights that never amounted to much, but recently she's been getting like $70,000 every quarter! One of my best friends started a small oil-field service (poly-pipe, generators, mud & trash pumps, trash trailers, pit liners, etc) towards the late 1990's. It was just him and his dad & uncle. Over the last 4-5 years, they increased to 43 employees and got tons of equipment & contracts. They flew to Houston a few weeks back and came home with a $15 million check from a big player that wanted to buy them out. These are just two of several stories I could tell of people that I know personally here in OK that are really prospering. But OK has always been that way....BOOM with the Oil, BUST with the Oil. Chesapeake, Devon, Kerr McGee, etc all have major presence here and they are building parks & museums & stuff everywhere, not to mention buying the Seattle Super Sonics with the intention of moving them to OKC. I could really blow some minds at the hiring by the O & G Co.s that has been going on down here. Right now, if you are willing to spend 5 days a week working & living in a trailer or hotel in West Texas, you can START at about $800/week for totally untrained/unskilled positions. If you have a CDL & some management experience, you can double that to start! Some companies are offering bonuses of up to $1000 per every month worked, payable at Christmas. That's $12,000 bonus just for not quitting every year. It's a really dividing issue in these parts. I really shouldn't b*tch so much about it either, as my sales to oil company archivists, executives, mineral rights owners, etc have risen to make up for the loss in sales due to high gas prices. Trust me, when gas goes up a bunch, our phones quit ringing. If it comes down to paying the rent & buying pump parts, well, you know. But lately, it seems like every other call I get is from a guy that does frack tanks, or a company that makes drill-bits, or a guy that is in the pipe business...and they all want some gear for their offices. Anyway, it's just interesting to me that there ARE regular people in the world that see this as an EXTREME positive.

Re: IT's RIP OFF TIME AGAIN!!!!!! #23807
Sun May 27 2007 08:47 PM
Sun May 27 2007 08:47 PM
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Posts: 485
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Pablo Offline
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El Dorado Hills, CA
I never said to lock it. A poster before you said it. I merely added some sarcasm.

I found nothing on the net about any "Pick" program related to oil companies. Without further info on the program and how it generates money for oil companies, it's just another baseless "fact" about how "big oil" is ripping off the country.

Re: IT's RIP OFF TIME AGAIN!!!!!! #23808
Sun May 27 2007 09:03 PM
Sun May 27 2007 09:03 PM
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Posts: 485
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Pablo Offline
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Seth,
Sounds like you know what's going on in the "oil patch". As previously stated, it's always been "boom & bust" in the oil business.

Only difference today? Back in the the 1986 oil price collapse, the world had over 16 million barrels a day of excess production capacity. Today, the world has only about 1 million barrels a day of excess oil production capacity. With all the conflicts and political pressures in countries with large oil reserves, some of which are our enemies, one can see how fear and emotion can move the markets quickly. This situation will not change until the supply/demand curves change. Governments are powerless to force prices down without making the long term situation even worse.

Re: IT's RIP OFF TIME AGAIN!!!!!! #23809
Sun May 27 2007 09:23 PM
Sun May 27 2007 09:23 PM
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Posts: 3,041
On the plains of Colorado
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On the plains of Colorado
A simple question from my Bro' Paddy.....
"What is the price in your neck of the woods?"......... Next thing you know..... Insults, sarcasm, personal opinions, and statements made WITHOUT....... Pause for effect. The links, or information as to where to find that information, to back them up....... Keep it up guys.... I for one, am enjoying the fireworks.....

Boom or bust, supply and demand...... All I know about this is, as a small company, about 25% of my income, goes to fuel costs!!!!!! Now add to that, maintenance, tools, insurance, registrations, advertising, dump fees, utility bills, new equipment/inventory....... Gee Wally, do you get to draw a salary after all those expenses? Yes, just a bit of Jerry Mathers sarcasm there. Fuel prices are up, and so are the tempers.......... I think its time to dust off some oil cans! 'Nuff said.


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