Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums Online Auctions, eBay Craigslist Petroliana Ebay's fees and the rights only a buyer has.

Here is my story.
I sell an item on ebay for $787.78 and when he pays with paypal I only get $764.63. He doesn't request or buy or pay for any insurance and the item gets lost.. He requests a refund from Ebay and they give him back $787.78 and take that amount back out of my Paypal account, now Im out the item plus $23.15 (paypal fee ).Ebay charges me 9% to sell the item ( $70.90 )which they will not refund because they gave the refund back to the buyer instead of me giving it back voluntarily. Now I'm out the item ($787.78) plus ( $23.15 )plus ($70.90 ).The buyer has no responsiblity in requesting or buying insurance and why should he buy insurance Ebay will pay for it if it's lost anyway..The case is closed and if the item is delivered at a later date and I'm sure it will be, the buyer gets the refund and the item... This all sounds like a one sided sale to me. I have proof that I mailed it and a tracking number... The post office has issued me a check for $115.00 for the insurance that goes wth it including shipping costs..
What do you guys think about this situation, I'm sure someone has had the same experience as this.

When you refund a paypal payment, paypal refunds your original fee. Log into your paypal account and go into the details tab for that transaction and it should show it there.

As far as the rest, sounds about normal for a seller on ebay. It really sucks.

It's a funny thing about some buyers,,,, most of them must have never run a business before..They expect the item to get there in record time, they don't like to pay very much for shipping charges let alone pay for packaging ( material & labour), they want it sent the cheapest way and ultra fast... From now on with my selling it will not be shipped without insurance and the customer WILL pay ( unless he takes 100% responsiblity for loss or damage) and it will have a tracking number,,, one of the reasons some don't want insurance is to keep the value down for shipping costs. Now we aren't even talking about the feedback system Ebay has now... thats really a one sided deal,, it's all about the buyer,,, no regard for the seller..

I have always felt Ins. should be paid for by seller. It is their responsibility for the item to be packed to insure item is received in condition as sent.
When you order a car/boat etc & it comes from the factory, IF it is damaged in transporting it is the responsibility of the shipper & transporter to get the item to buyer as sold, new & undamaged. Buyers responsibility doesn't start till it has been delivered. Ebay is like the car salesman, neither have anything to do with transporting the item & should be paid for their time.
If you sell a used car & don't take the buyer to DMV or a Notary Service to do transfer of title, buyer takes car & before he can transfer the title gets in an accident. You can still be held liable unless you can prove you Dated & Timed the title.

NEVER MIND, It isn't worth explaining anymore

#1 rule...Always pay insurance and especially on an Expensive item even if buyer is cheap and refuses!

After having to file a claim once with the post office(took 6 months!) I ALWAYS ship ups!

*Wes if you have collectibles insurance it might cover your loss here! just a thought...

Hope things work out for you...

Wes, Sorry to hear about the shipping troubles! I'm in agreement with you and thanks for sharing it.

Next time I sell something with significant value on ebay I will have a clear note that says the buyer pays insurance and paypal fees, if THEY choose to use paypal. I try to avoid paypal as much as possible... when will people learn to use interac transfers?? haha. And a note that if they decline insurance then I'm not repsonsible.

The car dealer analogy only works because the price of the car factors in insurance and getting it to the buyer without a scratch on it. I got the whole story from a friend of mine who works at a dealership. One in so many cars gets damaged during shipping and needs to be reported, repaired, etc by the dealership, but its all factored into the fees. You don't get the option of saying... "dont charge me to insure the new car when you ship it Mr. automaker." Only to have the car not arrive and then have all your money returned to you by the bank. You are paying for insurance with a new car.

Regardless of who physically or directly purchases the insurance... the "buyer" pays for it.

Hi guys. Even if you put a note in your listing that if they don't buy the insurance you are responsible...ebay may not agree and refund the money through paypal. My suggestion would be to say that insurance is required. Period. Or just roll it into the listing of the cost of the shipping if you can. It can be a real hassle. Good luck.

I've learned through many dealings on Ebay. A seller is in charge of the auction, you need to include insurance in your fees, whether the buyer wants it or not, they're not running the show, period. As for making them pay Paypal fees, doen't work, ebay will cancel your auction for stating that. It is slanted to the buyer, which is good most of the time.
I'm surprised that Paypal refunded the guys money though if you have a tracking #, that's usually enough to slow them down a little, hope things work out.

...in that case, I'm pretty sure you'd get your money - your tracking number would allow you to prove the item was delivered after your case was closed...

I state in my auctions..." all items over 100 bucks will have insurance and tracking, it will be added at invoice time"
I have never had any problem... BUT nothing has ever been damaged or lost.

Wesm Sorry to hear about your misfortune. If the item is >$50 bucks shipping and insurance is a must with me. Without it there is absoloutly no proof/protection for the buyer to determine if he received it or not. In your case he may very well have received it, and knows full well that there is no tracking from your end..so he claims he didn't recieve it and he gets the item for free! Keep an eye on him to see if he is brazen enough to re-sell it at a later date on eBay.

wes, check his feed back. If he has done this before, it will show.

EBay sucks as this same thing happened to me except I have collectors insurance and always ship UPS so I have a valid tracking #.... Anyway when my package was lost by UPS.... "UPS" paid the 1st $100 and collectors insurance paid the rest! Now onto eBay suck part....I emailed the buyer and explained to him that he would ether eventually get his package or refund but instead he files a dispute saying I never shipped him the package... even with proof of an UPS tracking # with his address...so eBay promptly takes $500 out of my checking account until it was resolved which took UPS 3 weeks to investigate and they another 3 weeks for the insurance company to pay the rest.

It's been awhile since I've sold on eBay and one of the reasons is their unfair treatment towards the sellers, the one's that actually pay put money into eBay’s value. It scares me how easy it would be for a buyer to pay by paypal (almost required now) and claim damage on an item and get refunded the cost, only to send back a different damaged item.

I suppose there always will be thieves on either end.

But as for shipping, I agree with Dick. When I cash the buyers check or it's in my paypal account the item is now theirs and it is my responsibility to make sure the item 1) gets to them, and 2) gets to them undamaged (to the best of my ability). I do however make the buyer pay for the insurance. I've never had a customer complain about that.

My problem again is that even when it's in MY paypal account it's not really mine as paypal apparently can take it out any time they want.

There are always 2 sides of a coin. Sellers are getting hammered now, mostly because of ***** that some of them have pulled in the past. For years, it was the buyer who got hosed, at lot of the time. I had 3 sellers take my money for items and walk away from Ebay, without sending the items I paid for. 2 of them, opened up new accounts and started selling all over again. There was no protection for buyers in cases like that. I would file a dispute and all 3 times was told, "sorry they are no longer an Ebay seller". So I was out my money. Ebay finally kicked the other 2 off, but how many other people like me lost their money? Now the money is held "in trust" until the transaction is completed and the buyer is satisfied. Not a perfect situation, but from the buyers stand point a lot better than it was.

Yes, there will always be a percentage of buyers who are out to "rip off" a seller. As there are a percentage of sellers who are out for the same thing.

Because of a few, now shipping is included in the sellers fees. The reason is because more and more .99 items carried triple figure shipping fees, these sellers had/have no qualms in trying to cheat Ebay out of their fees. So now all sellers suffer.

I used to sell 10 items a month...... Now I sell 10 items a year, maybe! God bless the swap meets!!!

Just a suggestion for everyone that has worked for me. I opened a new bank account just for Paypal, as soon as I get paid I transfer the money to my account. Usually takes 3 days to clear and then I withdraw it right away and keep my account at around $20. That way they can't take anything out. Of course this only works if you're a small time seller like me. I only run a few items at a time and pull all the money out asap.

Neil what happens if an item gets lost or damaged and you have to give the buyer their money back?

You can pull your money out of that account all day long, but if they want the money back they will get it. You should have listed a back-up source when you signed up for pay pal. If it is a credit card, you will be out even more money when it is all said and done. Most people use a bank account, however Ebay will get the money whenever they want it without notice. I charge a flat rate on all items. No matter if it goes 25 miles or 250 miles through the mail. I use flat rate boxes generally, so the price would be the same reguardless. ALWAYS charge extra for insurance. When you buy insurance, it comes with a tracking number, whether through UPS or USPS. I charge extra, 1 or 2 dollars, on every package. Do I feel that I am over charging, no. My time and gas to ship these items is worth more than that. Some items I have to drive 35 miles each way to ship. On cheaper items, people tend to bid with shipping in mind. So, if the item they want is worth $100 to them and shipping is $15.00, they will bid $85.00.

Bottom line...CHARGE ENOUGH TO PROTECT YOU.

What do you mean what happens???? I give them their money back. Do you think I'd keep it? I don't get your question I guess, unless you're implying that I would steal it, weird. I'm talking about unscrupulous buyers not lost or damaged items.
As to the credit card back up, that's true but it gives you another avenue to dispute their actions. Believe me, I'm no friend of Paypal but they did save me almost$700 when a seller tried to screw me.

I was wondering the same thing. Not necessarily about you, Neil, but if some unscrupulous seller did this and refused to give the money back. I assume it would then be charged to the credit card on file?

No, if you pull the money from your account then do you have ebay use your backup account to repay? Maybe you haven't run into the situation where a refund has been given?

I like you,set up a separate account for paypal, but I don't remove the money, I use it for my ebay buys. Just wondered what you do since you said you remove the money right away.

I received a notification, that ebay is extending the time one can "go back" against the seller of certain items. I've never sold concert tickets or theater tickets, but one never knows.

Paypal refunds the seller first, THEN they go for your money. If your account is empty, the buyer still gets his money from paypal, (part of their guarantee) then paypal will wait it out till they can collect from you.

I Love Ebay, It has been ridiculously generous to me thru the years. I don't mind paying their fees at all when I can sell a $60. item for $240. The ONLY outlet where that is possible.

I love Paypal, It has made buying and selling SO MUCH EASIER, I don't mind them taking their cut as without them I most likely would not get 1/2 the amount of bidders that pay within hours.

I have always had a separate bank account for my pay pal and keep a small balance unless I need to add for purchase.

Sorry about that, what I meant was that I try to limit my liability from thieves. I know if someone really wants to rip you off they probably can but there are ways to help prevent it. Luckily I have always been on the other end of it. I got my money back from Paypal twice and have lost a total of $500 on Ebay back when I paid with a MO. If you go to paypalsucks.com you can read some real horror stories. I'm so careful now to do everything by the book when I sell so I guess their strategy is working.

NOW !the rest of my "Story" is that the item that I sold and the item that got lost ( at least so far ) was for a friend of mine who never sells on Ebay...so he is the one that is really out the money,,, it wasn't very easy asking him to pay me the $800.00 for the item I sold for him . Luckily we are best of friends. Thanks for all the info guys ( and Tara ), :):)..
I still think Ebay and Paypal are good tools for buying and selling... I've been on Ebay since 1999 and this is the first transaction that went sour... so we drive on!! We are all a little wiser because of situations like these..

I have had some guys asking about the collectable Insurance the company is Collectibles Insurance Services 410-876-8833 or 888-837-9537 info@collectinsure.com
remember to check with your insurance company because most household policies do not cover antiques or collectibles. also inquire with this company as they will cover shipping up to a certain amount as long as you have an invoice and tracking # which paid for half of my policy in one yr.