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Re: My Next Sign Restoration [Re: bppierce] #352726
Sat Sep 01 2012 11:49 AM
Sat Sep 01 2012 11:49 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 466
Belgium, Liege
Nucky Offline
Petro Enthusiast
Nucky  Offline
Petro Enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 466
Belgium, Liege
I just send an e-mail to the buyer with this thread in the message to see if he can get a refund from the seller

Value Questions and Showcase forums

Please - NO offers to Buy or Sell in this forum category

Statements such as, "I'm thinking about selling this." are considered an offer to sell.
Re: My Next Sign Restoration [Re: Nucky] #352999
Sun Sep 02 2012 01:46 PM
Sun Sep 02 2012 01:46 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 12,110
PECONIC BAY, L.I., NY, USA
THE AMERICAN GARAGE Offline
Veteran Member
THE AMERICAN GARAGE  Offline
Veteran Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 12,110
PECONIC BAY, L.I., NY, USA
Now that's a GOOD MAN!


DOC @ THE AMERICAN GARAGE
Re: My Next Sign Restoration [Re: THE AMERICAN GARAGE] #353048
Sun Sep 02 2012 05:43 PM
Sun Sep 02 2012 05:43 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,998
Yep
N
Notchcad Offline
Veteran Member
Notchcad  Offline
Veteran Member
N
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,998
Yep
Lol! Wow! Problem solved!

Re: My Next Sign Restoration [Re: 1970mach] #354051
Thu Sep 06 2012 05:01 PM
Thu Sep 06 2012 05:01 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 458
Round Rock, Texas
B
bppierce Offline
Petro Enthusiast
bppierce  Offline
Petro Enthusiast
B
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 458
Round Rock, Texas
Sad to see this thread fade away.
This is THE perfect example of how a sign can be "made" from an original for one's own
collection and become a blemish on the gas & oil collectible field forever.

We got to see 1970 mach come here showing of his handy work in creating this sign
We got to see it go to auction AS A FANTASY PIECE
We got to see it immediately and fraudulently resold on ebay as a true original for over $1,000
I would love to see it come full circle and hear from the buyer (rrhovercraft) to get his take after he learn of the true origin.

This thread should resurface once in a while so new collectors can see first hand how quickly and easily they can become victims (or accomplices) on what starts out as just tinkering around.

Re: My Next Sign Restoration [Re: bppierce] #355846
Fri Sep 14 2012 12:44 PM
Fri Sep 14 2012 12:44 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,706
Near Tracy Rock
H
huskybob Offline
Veteran Member
huskybob  Offline
Veteran Member
H
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,706
Near Tracy Rock
Nucky....... did you ever hear back from the "unknowing sucker" er I mean buyer?

Re: My Next Sign Restoration [Re: huskybob] #355890
Fri Sep 14 2012 05:25 PM
Fri Sep 14 2012 05:25 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 458
Round Rock, Texas
B
bppierce Offline
Petro Enthusiast
bppierce  Offline
Petro Enthusiast
B
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 458
Round Rock, Texas
With public name calling like that, why would he?

Re: My Next Sign Restoration [Re: bppierce] #355900
Fri Sep 14 2012 05:57 PM
Fri Sep 14 2012 05:57 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 872
LA, usa
T
TheRoyalCrown Offline
Petro Enthusiast
TheRoyalCrown  Offline
Petro Enthusiast
T
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 872
LA, usa
I think this topic should be made a sticky topic that stays at the top.

Re: My Next Sign Restoration [Re: TheRoyalCrown] #355920
Fri Sep 14 2012 07:12 PM
Fri Sep 14 2012 07:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 145
Ontario, Canada
barn_raider Offline
Petro Enthusiast
barn_raider  Offline
Petro Enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 145
Ontario, Canada
I know the creator, and emailed the seller as well as the buyer at the time of auction/auction end. I put the emails at the bottom of this post, a good read.

I am chiming in here because some people on here think 1970mach (Colin) is somehow guilty of misrepresentation. In fact he is one of the most stand up guys I know in the hobby. I was at his sale, he sold it as nothing more than what it is. It sold at his auction for no more than $200 if I recall which was reasonable. To the guys that whine about how this should have been dated or marked fantasy: a quick inspection of this sign is all it would have taken anyone to determine that this was not an original sign in any way. It is obvious! If there are people in this hobby that will shell out a quick grand for something with a Red Indian sticker on it, well, they suffer from Red Indian psycosis. I have seen this before, and there will be more people to come. Jumping into this hobby, and failing to eduacte yourself on just what is "real" or not, is a persons own fault, I don't care how deep their pockets are.

ebay seller celine119 is the evil one. Here for everyone to read are my emails to her during the auction, my emails to the buyer after the auction, and the responses. Also, for what it is worth, I complained to ebay "flagged the item" several times different ways - to no avail, not even a response.



"Dear celine119,I am reading this auction and I cannot believe what I am seeing. This is not rare, it is not an original Red Indian piece in ANY WAY. What you have advertised is FRAUD. You may believe that it is original or rare, but in reality it is what is called a FANTASY piece... Where did it come from? My friends imagination, that is where. The frame originally was to advertise a range! Read for yourself in the link below, and please correct your auction. http://oldgas.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=37915&Number=245828#Post245828"

RESPONSE: "Thanks for your info.- celine119"

EMAIL TO BUYER: "Dear rrhovercraft,Hello. Were you happy with the Red Indian sign you bought? I was watching the item as the seller described it as original etc. It was far from what he was claiming, I was suprised it went for the money it did. A fine fellow I know made this sign, here is some info on it. I am not trying to cause trouble, but some people have no morals. http://oldgas.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=252758&Searchpage=1&Main=37915&Words=red+indian&Search=true#Post252758"

EMAIL FROM BUYER:"Hi: I realized after I got it it wasn`t original, so not real happy but have chalked it up to a bad choice and will live with it.THNX/Rick- rrhovercraft"

2nd EMAIL FROM BUYER: "Hi: Information that the seller was made aware of origins changes my attitude and I am goig to try to get some resolution and have contacted the seller .Thank you so much for your dilligence./Rick- rrhovercraft"

EMAIL FROM SELLER:"Thanks for alerting my buyer about his purchase from me.However u failed to mention that the sign is an original sign. I never said it was a OEM sign.It is in fact a hand made sign using a Monarch casing.It is rare because no other exists.So therefore this is no Fraud.May I suggest next time you get yourself in a tizzy check the wording of the auction. - celine119"

EMAIL TO SELLER:"Dear celine119,"Thanks for alerting my buyer about his purchase from me" You are welcome, someone had to do it. "However u failed to mention that the sign is an original sign." There is nothing original about it. It actually should be correctly referred to as a *fantasy* sign as it was never produced in such a manner by Red Indian, and fantasy items are not original items. A 1940s light up sign for Ranges that is stripped and re-done with 2011 paint and a 2011 sticker is definitely no longer original. "I never said it was a OEM sign." To say it is original suggests that it is an OEM product. "It is in fact a hand made sign using a Monarch casing." That is true, and if you stated that in the auction (when I emailed you that info) then your buyer would not have paid a thousand dollars for it, guaranteed. "It is rare because no other exists." Well I guess if that is true, I put a Red Indian sticker on my dust pan today and I might have a very rare dust pan now. "So therefore this is no Fraud." I am going to assume you are not a collector and have no scruples when it comes to misrepresenting an item in order to gain financially. "May I suggest next time you get yourself in a tizzy check the wording of the auction." I watched a poor guy pay a grand for a fantasy (fake) sign because you said it was original. You also failed to update the auction when I sent you the real origins of the sign. Good luck with any complaints against you. Please do not contact me again or I will file a grievance with ebay."



Colin (1970mach) is a good standing member on here, and placing blame on him is not right; I would go as far to say his is an asset to the board. He may not end up coming back to post some of his cool projects or finds or whatever if the community takes an undeserved dump on him.

Last edited by barn_raider; Fri Sep 14 2012 07:40 PM. Reason: edit
Re: My Next Sign Restoration [Re: barn_raider] #355935
Fri Sep 14 2012 08:28 PM
Fri Sep 14 2012 08:28 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,780
Santa Paula, Calif
Dick Bennett Offline
Veteran Member
Dick Bennett  Offline
Veteran Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,780
Santa Paula, Calif
When I & Others were selling my Copy/Fantasy cans on ebay, I INSISTED that sellers state in description what they were & are Dated. Even at that some cans Sold in the $200 range.
You can't protect everyone & some will bid to own even IF Items are Dated/MARKED FANTASY.

Re: My Next Sign Restoration [Re: Dick Bennett] #355947
Fri Sep 14 2012 10:47 PM
Fri Sep 14 2012 10:47 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 458
Round Rock, Texas
B
bppierce Offline
Petro Enthusiast
bppierce  Offline
Petro Enthusiast
B
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 458
Round Rock, Texas
Quote:
a quick inspection of this sign is all it would have taken anyone to determine that this was not an original sign in any way.

With eBay you cannot do a "quick inspection"? Sometimes you have to rely on the honesty of a seller, or the item itself? Unfortunately in this case neither are honest (the eBay seller or the sign).
My understanding of this thread is not to chastise 1970mach, but to show how putting a simple (undated) sticker on a sign can easily turn into a $1,000 fraud.
Bottom line, if it were dated, there would be one less crook that won and one less collector that got taken.
I have no doubt that 1970mach would have done it differently if given the chance.

Last edited by bppierce; Fri Sep 14 2012 10:48 PM.
Re: My Next Sign Restoration [Re: oldnfuelish] #502303
Thu Jan 02 2014 12:51 PM
Thu Jan 02 2014 12:51 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 686
Ottawa Ontario, Canada
1970mach Offline OP
Petro Enthusiast
1970mach  Offline OP
Petro Enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 686
Ottawa Ontario, Canada
I don't visit this sight much more these days..Not because of this post which I was only informed about yesterday from Barn Raider, but because at the time it became a sight about a bunch of grumpy men griping about newbies and their stupid questions, or about putting prices on their items for sale or complaining about members asking values of items and etc etc...

When I did try to visit back to the sight over about a 6 month period after the FANTASY Red Indian sign sold I could not log in. tried several times but wasn't overly concerned. Finally I emailed Jim only to get his explanation that I was not suspended from the site but given limited access because I sold a fantasy sign!! I could get to the site but could not log in to me = suspended.

I don't know who complained enough to complain about this travesty that had been committed to Jim but here was Jim's explanation for my account being labeled as limited access.

"Many members, myself included, were so dismayed by the lighted "Red Indian" sign that you created and sold as original. That sign situation was quite a shock for me and other moderators. We then placed your forum account on a limited features setting to review activit
y"


After getting the explanation for my limited access I realized then, not much had changed with this site and it starts at the top. still stayed away for a period but now I do visit the site at least once a week.

I have never made any other fantasy signs except this one. The auction hall was full of petroliana collectors. It was sold as a fantasy sign, and with my time and effort and cost I about broke even on it. It was unfortunate that the only item that a eBayer/ non collector could have bought was my sign. I emailed her when I learned it was up on eBay, I emailed the buyer afterwards..even waited for his comments on the transaction. He was very happy with the sign. Lets face it he could have got all his money back through Paypal protection if he had listened to me or Barn Raider or if eBay cared about protecting buyers..At some point you throw your hands in the air and say..You can't fix Stupid.

Thanks to those who have stood up for me in my past transactions with you. I have sold many thousands of dollars woth of signs to members on this site with no issues.

If I am not banned again for my rant, I will be back on the site periodically but mostly for reading post and not as a contributor and advertising any upcoming Petroliana auctions.

I still committ that this is still the best Petroliana Site Jim does a great job adminisrating it as do the moderators. However when you have a public forum such as this it makes it too easy to for 1 member to throw good members under the bus and then everyone hops on!


Colin Latreille
Always looking for Quality Canadian Oil & Gas & Ford Signs
Re: My Next Sign Restoration [Re: 1970mach] #502326
Thu Jan 02 2014 02:57 PM
Thu Jan 02 2014 02:57 PM
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 7,846
South of St. Louis, MO USA
Oldgas Offline
Moderator
Oldgas  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 7,846
South of St. Louis, MO USA
You are right, Colin, that responsibility for this site starts at the top. I just might be the chief "grumpy old man" when it comes to unmarked reproduction items that later get sold as originals. But I believe that the vast majority of collectors here are pretty much as grumpy about that issue as I am. So, yes, not much has changed.

I also believe that the maker of an unmarked reproduction sign has the responsibility for how that item is represented to be sold as it changes ownership not only in the first transaction, but also the second time and all the others down the line. That is why marking the date or the word "reproduction" on the sign is so important. To not mark it permanently is to not take that responsibility seriously.

You were put on limited privileges membership status at that time because this site does take a strong stand on unmarked reproductions. Later, after communicating with you, I felt that you didn't intend for anyone to be defrauded by the repro/original misrepresentation later on. Your account was returned to normal, hoping that you realized the seriousness of the unmarked repro problem after this one incident.


Jim "Oldgas" Potts
Your host and moderator
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