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#263994 - Thu Jul 21 2011 09:35 AM Another FAKE Sign From INDIA!
57tbirdkid Offline
TBA Feature Host

Registered: Tue May 04 2010
Loc: NY
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#264042 - Thu Jul 21 2011 03:14 PM Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! [Re: 57tbirdkid]
Rick Brown Offline
Active Member

Registered: Wed Nov 21 2007
Loc: Little Rock, AR USA
Learn your signs! Location is not a 100% way to determine if a sign is real or not. I say this Firestone Sign is REAL! To many people try to determine if a sign is real or fake just becasue of the listing location or the person listing the item. Yes, these may be factors, but not the true test of age.

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#264048 - Thu Jul 21 2011 03:44 PM Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! [Re: Rick Brown]
J.E.Radebaugh Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Fri Jan 04 2002
Loc: Gracey, Kentucky
Not trying to start an argument here, but I would agree with Keith. IMO it's fake. The font is all wrong (compared to the one in Mr. Amistadi's book on page 102).
_________________________
Jamie

Collecting Texaco and Havoline Signs, Cans, and Giveaways.
texacosigns@gmail.com

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#264054 - Thu Jul 21 2011 04:41 PM Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! [Re: J.E.Radebaugh]
THE AMERICAN GARAGE Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Jun 02 2004
Loc: PECONIC BAY, L.I., NY, USA
I'D BE ON THE FENCE WITH THIS ONE. THE SHELVING LOOKS HEAVY AND LEGIT AS DOES THE GLOSSY OLD TIME PORC FINISH. NOT ALL SIGNS WERE MADE IN THE STATES BACK IN THE DAY FOR OVERSEAS COUNTRIES.
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DOC @ THE AMERICAN GARAGE

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#264058 - Thu Jul 21 2011 05:00 PM Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! [Re: THE AMERICAN GARAGE]
Bud Miley Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Sun Jan 02 2011
Loc: Greenup, IL
I agree with Rick here, nothing sloppy, and the letters are clear and ssharp. Looks like a pole sign or something..

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#264059 - Thu Jul 21 2011 05:02 PM Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! [Re: THE AMERICAN GARAGE]
Bud Miley Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Sun Jan 02 2011
Loc: Greenup, IL
I agree with Rick here, nothing sloppy, and the letters are clear and ssharp. Looks like a pole sign.

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#264061 - Thu Jul 21 2011 05:20 PM Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! [Re: Bud Miley]
J.E.Radebaugh Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Fri Jan 04 2002
Loc: Gracey, Kentucky
Here is my question (and I'm not trying to be argumentative, just for the sake of discussion). Why is the sign in English if India's official language is Hindi? The back of the sign appears to be in a Non-English language, why not the front?

The sign (if original) is from the 30's. India's literacy rate in 1931 was 7% and was under 12% in 1947 (not to mention the sign is in English). Wouldn't it have made more sense for Firestone to display a picture of a tire on their sign for their India market with their script (to help facilitate sales to people who couldn't read)?

I have done two tours in Iraq and I had no idea what their signs were trying to advertise (because they were in Arabic, and I can't read Arabic) unless they had a picture on them.

Just my opinion.







Edited by J.E.Radebaugh (Thu Jul 21 2011 05:21 PM)
_________________________
Jamie

Collecting Texaco and Havoline Signs, Cans, and Giveaways.
texacosigns@gmail.com

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#264095 - Thu Jul 21 2011 06:59 PM Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! [Re: J.E.Radebaugh]
Rick Brown Offline
Active Member

Registered: Wed Nov 21 2007
Loc: Little Rock, AR USA
Even if you think the official language is or was Hindi, more people in India speak English than any other language. English may be just a second language to a big percentage of people in India, but even back in the early 1900's when this was a British Coloney, the language was English. How many of you sign collector have knowledge of The Bengal Enamel Works? Bengal made porcelain signs for markets around the world. Bengal made signs for Mobil Oil, I have seen a large Mobil Oil keyhole sign with the Bengal makers' name on the bottom of it. Bengal made signs for Firestone, I have seen Firestone signs with the Bengal makers' mark. Firestone sold tires all over the world. Amistadi's book contains a lot of different signs, but is is not 100% complete or correct. The Firestone sign in question is a great example of early 1900's porcelain advertising. The letters are not sloppy, this was how the lettering was designed to look. It is not my sign, I really have no interest or ownership in the sign, I am just trying to point out that some of you guys make the real or fake call using indicators that can be flawed. The two most flawed indicators I am talking about have to do with the sign location and do we like the person who has the sign listed. This is not an argument or a finger pointing game, it is one persons opinion.

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#264110 - Thu Jul 21 2011 07:54 PM Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! [Re: Rick Brown]
57tbirdkid Offline
TBA Feature Host

Registered: Tue May 04 2010
Loc: NY
I am not here to argue and I am not here to be put down and told to LEARN YOUR SIGNS. I am here to be RESPECTFUL and educate myself on this hobby! As a new collector and collector of strictly Porcelain Firestone signs I still feel this is a FAKE sign. Can I be wrong? Sure. Is the location and seller part of my judgment? ABSOLUTELY! BUT So is the sign itself. Rick and Jamie have some very valid points. But as collectors we need each other to learn from as well as all avail resources. Personally I have never seen this version of a Firestone sign, but then again I am newer to the hobby. I have many porcelain Firestone signs in the same Version's by DIFFERENT sign makers and they are virtually identical. The people who made this sign ran out of metal so they used a sign that they messed up on (that is why there is another sign on the back). Let's get down to a comparison. The letters in this sign are TOUCHING each other. Out of every porcelain Firestone I have seen the letters are evenly spaced and not touching each other. Shelving and gloss are not ways to determine if a sign is real or fake. Plenty of fake signs have great shelving and gloss(remember the people making these signs are using a technique from the 1930's- and all have wear by the screw holes). I have to give this seller credit. This sign would deceive many people and whoever made it did a good job. Here is a picture to compare. They may be two different versions-but consistency goes through most of the Firestone signs of this era The font is not right either as Jamie pointed out . I may be totally wrong, but I would not buy this sign.






Edited by 57tbirdkid (Thu Jul 21 2011 08:53 PM)
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#264118 - Thu Jul 21 2011 08:19 PM Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! [Re: 57tbirdkid]
Dick Bennett Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Oct 25 2000
Loc: Santa Paula, Calif
Evidently they cleaned the front, why wouldn't they clean the back?

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#264153 - Thu Jul 21 2011 10:39 PM Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! [Re: Dick Bennett]
Bud Miley Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Sun Jan 02 2011
Loc: Greenup, IL
Personally Tbird, I think you should have made the post say "Is this real?". But instead you Blast Off with the topic "Another FAKE Sign From INDIA!" Fake Firestone Sign- Sloppy As Usual. The comments didnt have Why it was fake or why you thought so?? or any comparison pics. I wouldnt think Firestone used the same company in the US to make both US and India signs back then.

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#264171 - Fri Jul 22 2011 07:30 AM Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! [Re: Bud Miley]
jackofalltrades Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Tue Jan 04 2011
Loc: West Michigan
Not going to argue whether the sign is real or not. But, I will say there are talented craftsman in India that could easily produce that sign.

An example of readily available talent: over there if you crash the fender of your car (which happens all the time because they drive crazy) rather than buy a new fender, you have the old one fixed. Labor is cheaper than the part itself. A skilled metalworker bangs out the dents, filler to get it smooth, and paints it. Looks new. Everywhere there are little shops that weld, fab, and paint. Easy to get a sign like this made there, even from heavy steel.

Over the past 10 years the metal forming tool and die trade has exploded over there. There's a reason Tata Motors (India) bought Jaguar and Land Rover. Many "engineering" students and skilled craftsman looking for work for cheap labor rates.

With more and more equipment (cnc, presses, etc) going there, you will see more difficult signs reproduced. Deep drawn text, fancy formed perimeters, complex colors in porcelain, all will be produced with time. They just need to find a market and draw up what the sign should look like. Surf the web for that rare sign, find dimensions, search several photos to get exact colors and text, make the sign, age and distress it to show it's old, find an American seller to move the products here.

Ever wonder why you can buy just about any high $ prescription drug there for about 10% the cost here? They are the capital of counterfeit drugs. Also, any book you can imagine here is printed there for pennies on the dollar and then shipped around the world. Harry Potter for example, thousands of copies made there ilegally and shipped worldwide. They would be just as willing to counterfeit signs if it was profitable.

I've traveled in India. I work in metalforming (automotive, ag, hvy truck, appliance). To have signs made there and shipped here would be a profitable venture, but very destructive to our hobby and to existing collections. IMO, best way to keep it to a minimum is to be careful when sharing high resolution straight on images of signs, specific dimensions, or other info that could be used to create quality counterfeits. Without that info, or without an original sign to copy, they don't have a good reference to use.

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#264188 - Fri Jul 22 2011 08:54 AM Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! [Re: jackofalltrades]
57tbirdkid Offline
TBA Feature Host

Registered: Tue May 04 2010
Loc: NY
Bud,

I agree with you on a different topic name and that I should have been more descriptive on WHY I thought this was a fake sign. Let's get some more feedback and the moderator of this forum can change the title of the post if they would like.

Thanks


Edited by 57tbirdkid (Fri Jul 22 2011 09:00 AM)
_________________________
The most valuable commodity I know of is information-Wall Street

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#264317 - Fri Jul 22 2011 07:37 PM Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! [Re: 57tbirdkid]
JimT Online   content
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Dec 06 2002
Loc: Cleveland,Ohio U.S.A.
Just my too sense...And I have a lot to learn about signs too. That being said, I havent seen backward shelving like around the letters of this sign. The orange was applied only about a half or three quarters of an inch under/ beyond the blue. Looks like double shelving. Looks like they wanted to save orange frit. Looks really hokey. I'd say another FAKE sign from SOMEWHERE!

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#264568 - Sat Jul 23 2011 11:08 PM Re: Another FAKE Sign From INDIA! [Re: JimT]
marxmobilgas Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Thu Jul 10 2003
Loc: DFW Texas USA
looks off to me, look at his Goodyear sign

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