Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums General Petroliana Discussion PORCELAIN SIGN RESTORATION......

if you get a porcelain sign "restored" isnt it the same as a repop when you get it back? or is it ok to do?

Had a Conoco minuteman one side professionally restored and one not. Had people say they that not much better then a repro, foolishly I had traded a large Gilmore sign for it.

I would never buy a restored sign- I feel it takes away from the value and character of the sign. Finding original great condition items is part of the "hunt" in this hobby.

Matter of opinion. I would NEVER have a sign restored or buy one that had been. Almost every restored sign I've seen or seen pictures of looks terrible to me. To me, yes, it is like a reproduction, especially since a lot of what I've seen are total repaints anyway. But some people prefer them restored. To each his own.

I would pay more for an unrestored sign. At least I know what I'm getting.

I ASSUME STRONGLY THAT RESTORED AND TOUCHED-UP ARE 2 DIFFERENT STATES OF MIND?

I think like anything it depends on quality, I've seen some restored signs that look ridiculous and some that are works of art. I had Lane Christianson and Jim Oswald do a couple for me many years ago and they're fantastic. Not worth anywhere near a mint original but that's OK, I don't have that much into them.

Gas stations, Filling stations, Service Stations... no matter what you call them, did maintenance on their facilities. This included the buildings, pumps, oil dispensers, ..... AND SIGNAGE.

Signs were taken down and refurbished continuously... Signs were expensive from the time they went up, even in the early 60s when I worked in a couple gas stations.... There were no "throw-away" plastic signs. You cleaned up and repaired the facility and items you had.

We all live in regions where the weather does a lot of damage to both metal and porcelain. When a Tornado, Hurricane, West Coast wind storm, snow, sleet, volcano hit an area, you think the station owner/operator went out and bought a new sign? Of course not, he had the sign refurbished. Sometimes it was "re-glazed", sometimes it was just "touched up". Throw some paint in an area where the porcelain had chipped out. At 10-15' in the air, it was hard to tell if the sign was in it's original condition or had been "helped".

Most of you are very new to the hobby (if you have less than 3 decades collecting, then you are a newby), yet you talk in "absolutes".

There are very few absolutes in any hobby that deals with "history".

A number of collectors have blinders on, honestly they have NO idea what it was like to work and/or operate a station.... That is one of the reasons I took my sabbatical.

Stop and think for a moment... You have a business and employees... You are trying to compete with every other gas station in the area.... Do you try to keep your business looking pristine? Or do you allow your building to become shabby, peeling paint, rust stains? ....

Do you allow your signage to become pitted, sand blasted, weather worn? Or do you "spruce it up"?

Do you allow your pumps to have "character and patina"? Or do you repair and "touch up" the paint....

I will throw out one absolute.....

If you answered, I would let the station gain character. Then most likely you wouldn't have been in business for very long.....

Some good interesting points of view.

That is a very good point Bob.

I am not saying that I like a restored sign as well as an original but as long as it is represented as being restored I see no problem with it and it is surely not a repop.

I have a 1967 Shelby GT-350 being fully restored right now and no one considers it a Repop or Clone.

I have quite a few restored gas pumps and some under restoration now and no one considers them repops either.
I o not see how a sign restoration is any different, you are taking imperfections that time has made and returning them to new condition.

Just my own humble opinion,

Jeff

Sounds like the verdict is ....Restored signs are good if you like them.

good arguments on both sides. i hate seeing signs totally ruined but still dont know why its better to take a sign thats been folded over and have em "restore" it rather than cut a new piece of metal and send it to em and have em remake it. how are they restoring a sign that is about to fall apart anyways? to me it seems like they are having to start fresh. there isnt a process to thicken metal.... that i know of anyways..

The trouble with restored signs are 90% of the people that have them done are doing it to fool the next guy.

A shoddy job is much better that an absolute perfect resto where nobody can ever tell it was restored.

Restoring a valuable sign is nothing like an old time garage repairing what they need to do to stay in business, There is a lot of greed in this hobby and uninformed buyers of restored signs is a problem just like undated repros.

yeah, I don't know that 90% of people having signs restored are dishonest and a having a shoddy job done? Why bother at all?

Your right about the 90%, just a # I thru out

My question would be, Why have a perfect restoration done where you can't tell it was restored, that alone is being dishonest to future buyers.

i've seen WAYYYY more repop signs aged to look old then fraudulently passed off as originals as i have perfectly restored originals passed of as unrestored. first, its much cheaper to start with a $15 repop & easier to age (free). the original will cost more in the beginning then add to the cost by restoring it & would still be a gamble to actually pass it off. i restore signs for me to keep & occasinally do one for a customer. luckily, i know how to do the resto process & it provides me a way to have a very presentable wall hanger without breaking my budget. my wallet is much happier with a nice looking $150 restored sign on the wall than a pristine $800 original.

Good point, that was the good thing about Layne and Jim, they didn't make the sign perfect and you could tell there was work done by looking carefully. I think that it would be fairly easy to spot a restoration even more so than a repop, look at folks like treasureray, they make lots of money selling repo garbage, the restored market has tanked. there was an article in PCM I think many years ago about restored signs being worth about half to 3/4 of a good original, it's way less now. Personally I would much rather own an 8 or above sign and leave it alone than a resto. the signs I had done (3) were very rare and I doubted at the time I'd find another, that of course was pre ebay. I've had a couple done since then but they didn't have any value to me as is. The ones I've sold I have made very clear about the resto. I offered one to someone on here and he declined because it was a resto. Down the line who knows, hopefully it stays in honest hands. I think the sheer volume of repo stuff has overwhelmed ebay and antique malls but I also think it's relatively few people who blatantly deceive and most of us know who they are. Of course that doesn't help when this stuff changes hands a few times.

Wow Bob, I guess I'm a newbie. I've only been collecting for about 18 years. Never worked in a station, but I did hang out at a couple stations my buddies worked at, and prior to that the station my brother worked at. Yeah, they cleaned and even painted the pumps and curbs and light poles but not the signs. I later found out why. I have a friend that used to own several stations. When he'd place an order for oil, ATF, anti-freeze, etc. there was a place on the order form for signs. He said the signs were free and he wished he would have ordered a bunch because he sold them for pretty good money when he got out of the station business.
Good to see you back by the way!

Like Rick said, what they did to keep their stations presentable back in the day is different than what's going on in the hobby today. I've seen some incredible sign restorations that very few in the hobby could tell had been restored. Sooner or later someone is going to get screwed when they think they are buying a mint original but its actually a restored sign. Not the same thing as a touched up sign as Bob mentioned.

If you watch the auction results you'll see that restored signs (when they're advertised as such) don't bring near the money of an unrestored sign in lesser condition.

Sellersrodshop, As the value goes up the higher the probability someone will pass off a restored sign as original. Think in terms of a $5000 restored sign VS a $15,000 mint original.

What can I say Bob? Been at it since '65, the 'Ol man started in '50. A couple of weeks ago the local Model A Club stopped by after the Unique Tin Car Show. A couple of them, who collected with Dad, commented that I had a nice collection, for a newby.... LOL

Here is a good example, http://www.ebay.com/itm/VERY-RARE-ORIGIN...=item336c5c8aaf

This guy tried selling this on this site for $1350. now it is on ebay for $1500. It was and is advertised as a restored sign. When is the last time you saw an Oilzum sign for sale, If this was not advertised as restored it would have been snatched up immediatley, But, if this does get sold, the buyer may not advertise it as being restored if he sells it and that is where the trouble starts

Sign restoration is a skilled trade..... I would not consider any sign restorer an artist. The works of art, are the original pieces. Art is the ability to capture your thoughts and images as you interpret them. Not coloring between the lines!

I think artist is a figure of speech, like when someone is very good at their profession, not in the literal sense.

Sorry.... My post seems a bit abrasive.

thermoman - I wonder if you've seen the work of a really good sign restoration expert? Say on a Conoco minuteman or a Kelly Tires girl in the car? These people are truly artists in my book - in all senses of the word. Sign restoration is DEFINITELY NOT coloring between the lines! No offense, but I just want to give credit where I think it's due. No matter which side of the "restoration" fence your on - I can respect their talents.

To further the debate.....

Some of you have said they would NEVER buy a restored sign, and restoring a sign devalues it to the point of being undesirable.

Ponder this.
What if the said sign was, say, one of only two or three known, worth pretty big $$$, and had neat graphics?

Touch it up and have a crappy sign?
Restore one side?
Restore both sides ?

Just curious......

I would probably just have a crappy sign, if it were only one of a couple known. For me, restoring it just wouldn't be an option, no matter how rare it was. I don't think I'd touch it up, either. That's just my opinion, though.

I have an old Triple Diamond International sign that needs restoring, does anyone know of someone in the business? I would appreciate a name-fone number. Just want it painted up nice,not the full porcelain treatment. Tnx Terry

"BOB" GLAD TO SEE YOUR BACK & OK ....WE MISSED YA BUDDIE!

Lebaron and VanKannel are the two I know of. Have not used either - but seem to do nice work that I have seen. No contact info sorry.....

Earl, oops wrong forum. Mike, The problem I have with restored signs is that there are some very good restorations being done that are practically impossible to tell they have been restored. Sooner or later someone is going to get screwed.

Touched up doesn't mean a sign has to look crappy. I've touched up a few signs that looked very presentable, but on close inspection it was easy to tell they had been touched up.

If I had a really rare sign that had allot of damage I'd probably just touch it up or enjoy it as is.

What would you do Mike?

Bob, I don't know what to do--hence the query. I knew it's rarity the second I found it, and even started the touch-up process....but figured it deserved more. Nobody would disagree that a pretty sign is more desirable than a roached example---after all, their visual appeal is why we buy 'em, right? Also,I have yet to see a "restored" sign(in the purity of the word)that I couldn't tell had been fixed(but I'm in the paint business, so..)---they're all too...perfect.Even NOS porcelain signs still have a look of imperfection that isn't easily duplicated, if at all possible. For me, that blows up the argument of future misrepresentation.
I was just wondering how feelings would apply in the case rarity. Thanks everyone.

I like the response from Bob R. Great insights - all makes sense. Why is there such adversity against signs that have been altered, reconditioned? Simple - too many people have been burnt in the past from buying (for big $) a repopped sign/item - or one that has been faked, modified, etc. So there is a great disregard for all which is not original and value is considered low on unoriginal. Now according to Bob R. analysis what is acceptable? Probably more acceptable if sign was altered (back in the day) and then reused at the station or business where meant to be - say at least 40-70 yrs ago. Modify it today - foget bout it.

I still contend there is a place for rare signs with great graphics to be restored for some collectors. The sign that would be 10-15k if mint original. If a guy can pick up a rough one up, put a reasonable sum into a nice restoration of one side to enjoy a sign he would otherwise never have?? I say it's up to the collector - who are we to say what's "right" and what's not??? Not arguing that they won't have high resale value like an original does, but if you like it and want to enjoy it without the holes and rust - I say go for it..... my 2 cents. thanks

Layne Christensen was one who had done my Conoco, it was so beautiful the job that is why I did the trade.

i agree totally & will take it a bit further to not just rare high dollar signs but all signs in general. first we need to face the fact that there is dishonesty in every niche & we won't be able to stop the corrupt from trying. it's up to the buyer to make the decision on what they want & be educated enough to know what is original & what has been restored. i personally like to restore the signs & stuff that i display for a better "visual experience" (this really applies to inside the house items that the mrs. has a say-so in)

perfect example, this old zeno gum vendor i bought years ago for a few bucks at a flea market. i got it cheap due to the condition which suited my budget. as is, the mrs. wouldn't let it anywhere near the house. i restored it & it went in the house with no fuss & i have a nice displayable item that gets comments from everyone. here's a before/after:

before:


after:


i guess what i'm trying to say is that for me personally, i wouldn't have the expendable income to hold out for years to find the "mint original" zeno machine & am just as happy with this one that i have less than $50 plus my time & labor in. i'll never be able to drop $10k on a single sign, but by restoring them myself, will have a bunch on display for that $10k total. i guess it boils down to what you are happy with & what you can afford...

WOW!!!! Gorgeous! Please tell me you didn't find that at the Cedars of Lebanon flea market..... hahaha!

You've made a couple of good points But remember a few years back when repros were not a problem. Beautifully Restored signs WILL be trouble years down the road when they change hands. We can do our part now.

I hope everyone has taken their high blood pressure medicine!!! In reading thru the post one thing stands out "honesty" so many have been ripped off by dishonest people passing off repaired items as mint or repops as old. I my self probably will not own a high dollar sign, unless it's cheap! and probably will never spend much money to restore a sign. But I do see the talent in the original artwork and the person who can restore it. We are only the care takers of the stuff for a short time so enjoy while you can! Take care! tt

The sign in question belongs to me. If ANYbody, even a novice did any research at all, say try looking in the Worlds Expert on Oilzum, Amastadi's Book, you would realize their is no way on Gods green earth you could touch a late 20's, early 30's OILZUM sign of any kind for $1500. If you refuse to educate yourself and avail yourself of reference material that is everywhere, you going to be mislead on everything you purchase in life, whether it be cars, signs, house, property, etc. I restored the signs for MY enjoyment to hang up and admire the restorers work. I could enjoy them a hell of alot more if I didn't have $xxxx's in them.
I am not misrepresenting what they are and even noted who restored them. Most of the signs I restored, you "purist" would turn your nose up and call them barn hangers. Some are so rare a sign in any condition is worth being made "displayable". Bob has it right, intolerance of others likes and dislikes are going to kill your hobby. I say "your hobby" because this is one of the major reasons I left it.

Larry Ivy
Chandler, AZ

Larry your Oilzum sign is fantastic looking! I wish I had the money to ensure it came to my home. First item I ever collected was/is a Oilzum can, after close to 50 years... still have that can.

I for one, am truly sorry to hear/read that you are leaving the hobby. It is disheartening to hear and read that more and more collectors are walking away from the hobby. With the loss of each collector, whether novice or experienced, a bit of history is subtracted from this hobby that I love so much.

won't be long before someone restores an artificially aged repop, then we're really in trouble

I bet it already has happened. That's too funny!!

I agree that buyers need to educate themselves. Topics like this help to educate buyers.

I saw a high end restored sign that was so well done that if fooled some of the most knowledgeable sign guys in the hobby. Thankfully the auction company was forthright about the sign's restoration. It was interesting watching these veteran dealers and collectors shake their heads in disbelief after inspecting the sign. There may be a time when a high quality restoration helps to bring the value up near the price of a mint original, but that day the restored sign was worth about a third of a mint original. Think of potential of an item like this in the hands of an unscrupulous seller.

I certainly don't have a problem with anyone restoring their signs for their own enjoyment....but PLEASE mark them in a way that future buyers will be able to tell they've been restored. The problems arise when a collector dies and his wife and kids have no interest in the collection. It's just stuff and they don't know or care if it's original, restored, or repro. They just want to turn it into cash. Chances are high that in a situation like this something is going to be misrepresented...if even unintentionally.

People collect signs for various reasons.... Some collect as an investment, for some it's the thrill of the hunt, some collect signs that are visually pleasing, and some collect to preserve history. All of these factions will have differing opinions and may come across as intolerant at times.
It's no different than the old car hobby where you have guys that are into traditional hot rods, others into street rods, and others that only like cars that are restored to original specs. About the only thing those guys have in common is they don't like rat rods!

Well stated !

I agree, Bob. Well said!

I think if the sign is super rare and has great graphics, why not. Do it and enjoy it. I have a rare Ace High sign that I restored one side and not the other so no deception but I like it.
I am not much of a pump guy but what I could never figure out, pull a pump out of a scrap pile, put on new skins, new faces, new handles, new glass and that is acceptable? What is the difference between that and a restored sign?
It's a rare pump, you did it and you enjoy it, not much difference.

I've got some thoughts on this one,but what I have in mind I am quite sure would be considered hijacking a thread.Since I'm dealing with a situation right now,I'll figure it out and start a new thread.

BTW,I agree with Avio on the pumps.

The education process has to start with collectors and those who restore when talking about restoration of signs.

Those individuals who are high quality restorers should in some fashion brand their work, like an artist signing a piece of artwork. Collectors should be honest with newcomers to the hobby and pass along their knowledge on how to identify original/resto/repop. To often I've seen collectors attempt to disinform newcomers just so they can beat out that person for an item. Honesty and forthrightness and calling on the carpet those who attempt the opposite should be the norms in any collecting hobby, because if collectors don't police the market no one else will.

There are always going to be three camps of collectors, those who want perfect originals and willingly pay the $$$$ for them, those who want true condition originals, and those who just want to own the piece in nice condition regardless of whether original or restored. Individuals in camp 1, if they are willing to put out the $$$$, should also be educated enough in the hobby to double or triple check for restoration. Individuals in camp 2 shouldn't look down on either of the other 2 camps and should just continue to enjoy the pieces they acquire. Individuals in camp 3 should get to know guys in the other two camps so they don't get burned by restos.

On the restoration issue in general, my opinion is that it's really up to the end buyer and no one else as long as the piece is represented as repaired/restored and priced accordingly. An extremely rare piece (few known) in a condition of 6 (out of 10) can be restored, it just makes sense as the enjoyment of such a rare piece is heightened for both the collector and those who get to see such a sign. For 1 of a kind pieces, if the overall impact of the piece is greatly affected then sympathetic restoration is acceptable, but if restoration isn't going to add aesthetic or preservative value then there isn't really a reason to do it.

If the Mona Lisa were to develop a rip would you not repair it? Would you rather risk the total loss of the piece? Of course not. That's why there are people around the world whose business it is to preserve the pieces of history mankind has left behind. It's no different in the sign collecting world, the idea should be to preserve the history enough without damaging it's authenticity.

I personally have a two piece sign that I would love to see restored because one of the two is far better and repairing the lesser of the two sympathetically would restore the aesthetic appeal. And this is a one of a kind sign, and I believe a full restoration would be far better than a partial one, both aesthetically and value wise.