Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums General Petroliana Discussion Another Fake sign

Another example of a FAKE sign coming out of Florida. Check out 250126692778 GASCO sign. FAKE, FAKE, FAKE. Does anyone know who and why these are coming from Florida. It appears that more then one person is importing these from Melaysia
Ray

i believe there is a very small network of people doing these signs i also believe there modus of operation is....They let a few out @ the beginning for a high price........once all the high end collectors have them the price starts to fall...Remember the small oval Gargoyles that started showing up for 750.- $1000. then after all the high end collectors had one they come out with a rare orange one...I could have bought at least 6 of the white ones this year in Brimfield for $150.00 each......Remember the RCA black oval approx. 12 years ago, then the tall Eveready flashlight batteries that comes in about 6 colors? They appear all to be made by the same maker.....There are many others & it all started with the RCA, Columbia records in Des Moines.....Well back then they were coming from a guy named Nick from Florida, can't say the last name, but he use to set up at most the gas & oil shows......Now there is a guy from Indiana who seems to be the next guy in line to the kingpin,.....He then wholesales them to smaller dealers .....Nick has long disappeared,but the signs have not....It is just sickning how a few people can screw up a great hobby, however there is a push in the Antiques industry to make these people resonsible for their actions.......Darryl

hope push comes to shove.... get these dirtbags out of the hobby.... never happen but... wishfull thinking....

Hey Darryl, thanks for the heads up on those Gargoyle ovals. I have always been skeptical of these signs as they are ALWAYS in excellent condition. However, I've had conversations with collectors who insisted they were real.

I also remember when the orange ones began to leak out...the first few brought around $400-500 on Ebay.

Very interesting stuff...

kmann, i think you'd be surprised how much power you gas & oil guys actually have, if you just banded & worked together.....I am very surprised there is not a Forum here on Primarily Petrolania dedicated to this repo garbage..........this person just sold this 2 sided neon porcelain item #(320121173320) for the umteenth time & i'm really starting to take offense at his greed..........i suspect to see another one on ebay in a couple three months from now & he will get a surprise....i have one ready to go that i will list explaining that this sign is a reproduction with full details..........Now there is the small baby neon pegasus that is the new hot piece of garbage & its surfacing in many places, but beware .....Matthews just had one & I'll bet you'll see one in Columbus Ohio.......i just seen one of these sell in Brimfield for $2500 & in a year or 2 you'll be able to buy it for $200.............i'm not a gas & oil guy but i can see how you guys are being targeted because of the dollars involved..............In the real antique industry there are some upstanding dealers trying to introduce legislation to Sen John Warner ( i have the article) to make these frauds accountable........it appears to me that not enough guys in the petroliana industry care about these frauds, you do have the power & i would love to see you use it.....its a lot of work but well worth it.........some of the leaders in your hobby should be stepping forward & leading the charge.......good luck

Here's a link for an oval Gargolyle sign currently on Ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Beautiful-Porcelain-...1QQcmdZViewItem

Chad,
The authenticity of the Mobiloil Gargolye signs is debatable. I have one that I bought a few years ago from a seller who had acquired around two hundred of them, including a couple of the orange versions. Supposedly, the signs were all found together in a warehouse. If you hold and examine one of these signs, it's difficult to believe that someone could reproduce that old porcelain look and feel. The signs are very heavy metal with super thick porcelain, very heavy shelving and crude rack marks on the back. These traits all point to a sign manufactured in the 1930's.

Note that the Gargoyle signs reference "Rochester USA" which is not present on other Mobiloil signs from that time period. In my opinion, these signs are genuine and were probably made up for the foreign market or as prototypes, but never used and later forgotten. Until someone can definitively state that these signs are repops and document the source, I believe they are genuine.

A crude rack is easier to build today, than back then.

Why do you think heavy sheving cannot be done today?? Just because they skimp on material on repro cheap signs does not mean you can not spray it on thicker...IMO.

I just picked up a sign from an insurance co started in 1836, I think it is from the thirties. The porcelain on the back has runs from the white main color on the front but the runs go both ways, almost like it is dipped not sprayed??

dodogas,
Have you actually examined one of the Gargoyle signs or are you merely speculating? No doubt, ANYTHING can be manufactured with the right mix of money and talent. However, it's instructive to keep in mind that this ongoing commentary began when someone pointed out that many repop signs have appeared in recent months with totally rusted backs (see other threads on this topic). The Gargoyle signs have procelain backs. "roadrelics" commentary lumped the Gargolye signs into a group of signs that he presumed were repops. I'm just saying that the Gargolye signs haven't been proven to be genuine or fake by anyone with the requisite expertise.

Paul, why does the oval sign on Ebay have no grommets? And why is there chipping around the grommet holes? If these signs were found in a warehouse, would there be "use specific" chipping? In my opinion, the chipping around the grommet holes is a fraudulent attempt to indicate the sign had been hung.

This goes in line with the signs recently discussed in another thread (the Crisco sign Amistadi bought, the Husky pump plate etc.). ALL of those sign had 1.) no grommets and 2.) fraudulent chipping around the holes to indicate the sign had been hung. The shelving looks very thick on those signs as well.

Moreover, didn't the Golden West pump plates which were later determined to be repops have heavy shelving and porcelain on the back also?

The "warehouse find" story is too convenient. And yes, the Rochester denomination would be proper on European Mobiloil signs...but there are ZERO pictures of this sign in use and ZERO sightings of these signs until recent years.

Reasonable minds can differ...however I believe roadrelics.com is onto something.

Seth, do you have any opinion you'd care to give on these signs?

Well...one can never be 100% sure of anything (except if you made the sign, see Diesel Chief thread ) but I am 99.9% sure that the recent influx of Gargoyle ovals & Socony Aircrafts & die-cut Mobil horses & porcelain ford ovals are all originating from the same place overseas. I attend the huge antique fair at Round Top & Warrenton, Texas twice every year, generally getting there a week to ten days ahead of time. Pablo may also go there. Anyway, there are a lot of import-type furniture/decor dealers there that may bring in a container load of goat-carts, galvanized tubs, gazing balls & stands, shabby-chic garden type stuff, distressed furniture, etc. The last few times I went down there, I saw a minimum of 6 of these importers that had Gargoyle Ovals/Sinclair Aircrafts/Ford Ovals/Pegasus Horses in their booths. It wasn't like they had a bunch of signs...just the same few logos that all had the same back, the same color tones (i.e. a baby blue on the Socony & the Ford oval, BOTH WRONG), the same weird shelving, same lack of gloss, same chipping that was lilly-white underneath etc? But let's not stop there, I have personally witnessed, a phony baby-blue, wrong font P.O.S ford oval sell in one of these type booths, and not 5 minutes later another was laid out for sale. Come on...I was born on Sunday, but not last Sunday!

[This message has been edited by Seth Robbins (edited 06-08-2007).]

Chad,
Well, your comment about the "fraudulent chipping around the holes to indicate the sign had been hung" sounds odd to me. Here's your previous comment in this same thread: "Hey Darryl, thanks for the heads up on those Gargoyle ovals. I have always been skeptical of these signs as they are ALWAYS in excellent condition." Your quote and bold type, not mine. Apparently, you aren't consistent in your thinking.

From what I've heard and seen in photos, these Gargolye signs were found in mostly unused condition with some patches of rust, scratches and minor chips. However, I was mistaken about the "warehouse" find. After searching through my old emails, I found the "story" on the signs in a 2003 email from the seller (who is from Indiana but will remain unnamed)...

"I have attached photos of four pump plates that you were asking about. The
history on the signs is this. About three months ago I was contacted by two
guys that have picked up signs from me off and on for two years. They had
located a man in Oklahoma City that was tearing down a barn and found a box
with 100 of these signs in it. He would only sale the whole box, not sign by
sign. Neither man had the money, so they called me to see if I would do the
deal and part with a few signs as a finders fee. Well, the rest of the story
is clear, as you now know I own the box of pump plate signs. I will not
resale them fast, as I do not want to see the value of the signs drop, and a
quick return on the investment is not what I am looking for."

That's the seller's story and it's certainly hearsay. Of course, a large number of newly discovered and previously unknown signs coming on the market at once should generate a great deal of skepticism. However, I still say that no one with any credibility in the hobby has proven definitively that these signs are fake. As previously stated, I believe it's very possible the Gargolye signs were intended for foreign use or were prototypes of some sort that were never used.

Let's hear from someone out there with real knowledge! It may take a date test of the materials to put this one to bed!!

Seth,
I went to Warrenton and Round Top this last March and didn't see any of these particular Gargolye signs. That's not to say they weren't there, as I whip through it pretty fast with all that ground to cover!!

But are we talking about the same sign?? There have been a bunch of foreign repop signs showing up lately, most with the suspect non-porcelain rusty backs. The Gargolye signs have been around over five years now and have full porcelain backs. In addition, most of these current repop signs attempt to copy the originals as closely as possible in an attempt to fool the collector. Why would a scam artist place "Rochester USA" on a sign when that had never been part of any Mobil or Gargolye sign in the past?? Doesn't make sense to me!! Food for thought.

Pablo...we are talking about the same sign. Last year @ Warrenton alone, there 4 sellers with spitting distance of each other that Socony A/C's, Gargoyle Rochester ovals, Ford Baby-Blue Ovals, & Pegasus horses. All had black backs, all were fake.

I would like to add a little more of my OPINION.....If Pablo or any of us held a 15 year old Justice repo we would think it was real, it had great thick porcelain , great heavy shelving, porcelain backs & it fooled most of the experts until one of them became suspious & had them tested, it turned out this big wharehouse find of many different nos signs that brought 100's of thousands of dollars were all repo & it resulted in criminal charges & i still have friends who are being reimbursed....The repo 34'' Super Service has a porcelain back,i have seen 3 porcelain neon Pegasus's in the last month that have porcelain backs & they even have porcelain covered hanging brackets......i have never seen this sign before in person or photos, all of a sudden they appear....i have to be very skeptical however that does not make them repos............in my opinion the oval Gargoyls are very crudely done, the border is not straight & looks like it was cut by hand ,stenciling also appears to be very crude & i never seen another Mobil sign done this crudely.......i guess it was wrong of me to lump all these signs to one maker as there are probably several makers of these different repos......i guess i agree with Seth, you can't be 100% sure, however if it looks like a skunk, acts like a skunk & smells like a skunk, its usually a skunk............