Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums General Petroliana Discussion Another Fake sign

Paul, a sign can be in excellent condition with chips around the mounting holes...that's hardly an inconsistency.

Sorry, but you probably got burned on these signs. As you said in another post regarding reproductions, "Don't kill the messenger..."



[This message has been edited by DCpate (edited 06-08-2007).]

Just a few comments on some statements/thoughts expressed above:

1) Just because a sign was made overseas shouldn't automatically make it suspect as a repop.....Mobiloil was a brand sold internationally from before 1900......certainly many advertising items were made locally, in some places that were, shall we say, not as well equipped to produce signs/cans/etc up to our high standards. I'd expect some old original items from these places to appear rather "crude"

2) No way in hell Mobil would have ever allowed a Gargoyle sign with an ORANGE background to be seen in public.......I don't care in what god forsaken place it was!!!

3) The Gargoyle signs were referred to as "pump plates"......which we usually associate with gasoline pumps. For the non-Mobil collectors out there......MobilGAS signs go on GAS pumps, MobilOIL signs go on lots of things (display racks, cabinets, walls, lubsters, etc), but virtually never on GAS pumps.

I don't have one of these oval Gargoyle signs in my collection, mostly for the reasons spelled out by Seth and others above. I like the signs, but when I have my big auction some day, I want all you guys BIDDING, BIDDING, BIDDING.....not arguing over repops.

Richard

From all the expert commentary, the Gargoyle signs are most likely repops. Who knows for sure??

However, one of these same signs was sold by Aumann Auctions at the 2005 Spring Petroliana Auction for $385 (check their auction results). Therefore, I guess all the "experts" can get fooled some of the time. I only paid $175 for my sign, so it's not a big deal.

Cheers!!

I was talking about shelving on signs in general, on my last post. I dont think shelving has as much to do with age as it does with keeping cost down.

There used to be an ad in Mobilia selling porcelain signs. It was in Eastern Germany. My wife was over there, so I got her to check out the address.. it was an apartment building!!!

I do recall seeing a shop over there that made porcelain signs, saw it while driving. I suspect that most of the signs coming out of Europe are from the eastern part, used to be lots of cheap labour there.

There has been at least 2 porcelain sign making shops in out town, and it is not a big city.

Rochester, as in Vacum Oil Company, happens to be in New York. there also happens to be a Rochester in Minnesota, as well as a few other states. Now here, in the states, we write a city, then state, "Rochester, New York". As for myself, if I saw a sign, with Rochester USA on it, instead of Rochester New York, I would question its authenticity. Minor point, yes. But certainly something to think about. I do believe that we've all seen e-mails, from somewhere else, with poor use of our language/grammar.

[This message has been edited by Thunder II (edited 06-09-2007).]

Am throwing this out in response to the Gargoyle signs. I have seen alot of them over the last few years and even bought and sold at least 3. If it is being reproduced, was there in fact an original? If so, what is the difference? I have noticed that there are several subtle variations of the white version. Some have two mounting holes, one on each side, while some have four mounting holes. There are lighter and darker reds and other subtle differences in many of these signs. This leads me to believe that at least some are authentic. Anyone who has one of these signs, please post photos and lets compare the variations. If they are reproduced, aren't they usually made the same or very close? If this sign is fake, they did a great job. The last one I owned took some heavy duty cleaning with some tough chemicals to remove some staining that looked really old and authentic (yellowing, etc). To me, that is something that is hard to replicate (though not impossible) and most people would not go to that much trouble on a fake, especially if there are alot out there. Maybe some literature would authenticate the sign. I had always heard they were a legitimate lubster sign from Europe. To me, the Gargoyle signs look similar to other authentic European signs. It would be very helpful to come to a reasonable conclusion on this sign. Are they all fake, are some fake or are they all real? Maybe an overseas reader can verify or debunk the sign. Anyone in Europe ever see one in the wild? Any literature on this sign Jack? Seth, would love to hear your input on the variations, etc. Enough people reading this have a piece or two of the puzzle and maybe we can get enough pieces to see the full picture. Seems we can solve this one....canosaurus Dave.

[This message has been edited by canosaurus (edited 06-09-2007).]

Here is a pic of one of the three that I have owned

The first oval Mobiloil sign I ever saw was about 4-5 years ago. These signs had heavy shelving and a nice black procelain back.. Not the rusty looking black back that you see today. I felt that the sign was original. Now I see these crude cut ones with the rusty backs and no porcelain inside the mounting holes. No doubt they are phony!! That's my take on this discussion.

Butch

Hi Ill go with Butch- the first Gargoyle Oval I ever saw appeared in Collectors Auction- the call in auctions of 90s-I think Somewhere about 94-95- went for about 800.00- shortly after i bought 4 from Europe along with a bunch of other Gargoyle cans etc- the Triangle Gargoyles- etc- all good stuff - paid about 400 for the ovals- somewhat rough on edges- had black porcelain backs - sold very quick for 550 to 700- I then got about 4 more along with pile of European cans- Shell Mobil Green Texacos etc- all good stuff- ovals sold quickly- a few years later Others started to appear at lower prices-250 to 350- a few were slightly diff but still looked orig- black back etc- Slightly diff didnt bother me - just look at the variety of Mobil Pump plates made in US- each supplier was diff-then it seemed a flood of them started showing up in about 2002-4- white or rusty backs and i backed off- My Conclusion was that there were a bunch of originals from Europe- followed by pile of repros- Just my thoughts- thanks don

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Wanted 5 quart cans

Does anyone have a photo of one in use?

I have wondered about this also since "Tok likes Gargoyle" stuff.

This was at an auction I was at, very heavy and porcelain back, but something did not seem right. Maybe just foreign? I was on the edge of me seat as I watched it go for $145.

HI Toke- I think most of the old ones I had had red line around edge-??? Butch may remember edge color- thanks don

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Wanted 5 quart cans

Butch's comment: "The first oval Mobiloil sign I ever saw was about 4-5 years ago. These signs had heavy shelving and a nice black procelain back.. Not the rusty looking black back that you see today. I felt that the sign was original. Now I see these crude cut ones with the rusty backs and no porcelain inside the mounting holes. No doubt they are phony!!"

I totally agree that the rusty backed signs out there today are fakes. Any genuine porcelain sign will have a porcelain back. Most of these rusty repop signs apparently originate in foreign countries.

Attached are photos of my Gargoyle sign acquired four years ago. The sign is very heavy metal with thick porcelain, heavy shelving and a black porcelain back.

However, I now tend to lean toward "roadrelics" and Chad's thinking. If no one can validate that "Rochester USA" was ever placed on a Mobil sign, I'd say none of these signs are genuine, even the first few that sold for big buck$. One reason is the lack of historical evidence but another important factor is that individual beliefs don't really count. As a practical matter, in this hobby (and in life) the perception of the majority becomes "reality" regardless of the "facts".






[This message has been edited by Pablo (edited 06-10-2007).]

Heres a few different signs from canosaurus Dave

[This message has been edited by frankpl (edited 06-10-2007).]

lets try this again