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#302954 - Mon Feb 06 2012 11:25 AM Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange
gulfiend! Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Jul 01 2005
Loc: Raleigh, North Carolina
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gulf-Porcelain-H...e-/180813387704

...from '2curios'...the porcelain looks thick, lots of shelving...but the lettering below 'OIL' looks VERY suspect to me...and the white outer border is wider than on any Gulf flange sign in this style, that I've seen...I just don't think it's 'right'...

...top photo is the sign in question, from '2curios' auction - the other one from an old Proxibid listing (which is definitely an old one)...note the differences...what do y'all think?


Attachments
2curios.jpg

2curiosnot.jpg




Edited by gulfiend! (Mon Feb 06 2012 11:26 AM)
_________________________
Looking for better Gulf items: signs, globes, cans and paper - especially porcelain Gulf flanges, and Gulf A-38 & A-62 ad glass...

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#302957 - Mon Feb 06 2012 11:37 AM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: gulfiend!]
gmstuff Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Mon Jan 22 2007
Loc: Elkridge, MD, US
Looks fake to me!

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#302958 - Mon Feb 06 2012 11:48 AM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: gmstuff]
advertologist Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Sep 07 2007
Loc: So. Ca.
no doubt about it..
_________________________
RANDY

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#302959 - Mon Feb 06 2012 11:49 AM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: gmstuff]
Dave's Garage Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Mon Dec 05 2011
Loc: Abbotsford, British Columbia, ...
Don`t know enough about this sign in particular to make a definitive statement. I agree that it is questionable. I noted that the font or letting is different for "SUPREME" especially the "R" and "M".
_________________________
Dave GILL,
Dave's Garage & Memorabilia, Inc.

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#303662 - Thu Feb 09 2012 07:22 PM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: Dave's Garage]
5 quart Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Sun Jul 06 2003
Loc: Stockton NJ USA
Hi Mark- I almost bid on that sign- but just didnt look right- was also a rather low price for orig that good-lease they could do is throw a couple rocks at it to give it a little age-- thanks don
_________________________
[b] Wanted 5 quart cans -old speed equipment -1950-60s- Cad- Olds std shift parts - site at www.oilnspeed.com

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#303849 - Fri Feb 10 2012 04:24 PM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: 5 quart]
Badmotorfinger Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Mon Sep 26 2011
Loc: Mass
Ok, you guys have me concerned. I purchased a similar sign from this seller last month and although it looks good to my new collector eye I wanted to run it by the more experienced after the above sign was called into question. Let me know if anyone sees any red flags with this sign. Thanks.








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#303852 - Fri Feb 10 2012 04:49 PM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: Badmotorfinger]
Tankar Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Thu Oct 30 2008
Loc: MN United States
LOOKS GOOD TO ME!. I have one myself and have always liked that sign.

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#303878 - Fri Feb 10 2012 07:43 PM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: Tankar]
cosdencop Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Tue Aug 16 2011
Loc: texas
This last one looks good to me also !! I have one just like it i bought off old gas.

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#303949 - Sat Feb 11 2012 07:58 AM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: cosdencop]
gulfiend! Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Jul 01 2005
Loc: Raleigh, North Carolina
Badmotorfinger, your sign is an original...
_________________________
Looking for better Gulf items: signs, globes, cans and paper - especially porcelain Gulf flanges, and Gulf A-38 & A-62 ad glass...

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#304190 - Sun Feb 12 2012 12:07 AM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: gulfiend!]
gulfoilngas Offline
Active Member

Registered: Thu Aug 25 2011
Loc: Ohio Valley
I also want to add that I have bought from this seller and have not had a problem, maybe he did not know what he has. Has anyone asked him? They move allot of signs and are always buying and selling from what I can tell and I agree that this sign looks different than what they usually do and if they are not original then I would bet he would want to know. I too almost bought that sign but for some reason I didn't. .

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#304270 - Sun Feb 12 2012 12:22 PM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: gulfoilngas]
signgod2112 Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Fri May 14 2010
Loc: Texas
Gulfoilngas,
Just for the record 2Curious are two sisters that have an antique store. U keep referring to them as He.

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#304281 - Sun Feb 12 2012 01:30 PM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: signgod2112]
gulfoilngas Offline
Active Member

Registered: Thu Aug 25 2011
Loc: Ohio Valley
I did not know they were sisters, but I do agree there are two lady's and I usually deal with Elizabeth (I think the other name is Jordan) and no matter what sign I am buying she goes by what her "boss" says, his name is George. She said he is the one that does the buying and puts the prices on the signs. That is the "he" I was referring to. I cannot personally verify though as I have never been there in person, that is just what she told me. Either way I guess the real issue is about the signs, I did not buy it but would be curious to hear from the person that did if they happen to see this forum.

Here is my question (or just thoughts) since I don't like getting ripped off any more than the next guy, sometimes there are differences in these old signs especially if the manufacturer changed, do we think that is a possibility? Along those lines has anyone ever seen a reproduction that looked like this before, if it were a repro wouldn't there be allot of these on the market? Someone would have went to an awful lot of work for not allot of money.

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#306444 - Tue Feb 21 2012 10:02 AM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: gulfiend!]
Steve in New Mex Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Thu Dec 15 2011
Loc: SW US
I also have done business in the past with 2curios and have been well satisfied. They do offer some high-end repros, but are careful to identify them. You will note that the posting for this particular Gulf Supreme sign stated NOT REPRODUCTION in all caps.

Here's what they had to say when I inquired:

<<George has returned and we looked over the "discussion board" link you sent us. The best that I can tell you, is that we bought the sign as old and original from a collector. We describe items as to the best of our knowledge, and we do also strive to keep our customers happy. We do not claim to be experts, we just like this stuff! There is no real way for us to know. I just don't know how one "verifies" the authenticity or non-authenticity of an item. I know that may not be much of an answer, but as with all dealers, just can't always know... to post this at the discussion boards.>>

I'd also have to agree with the posting that notes that different companies made variations on basic designs over a period of time. This is particularly maddening for the Ford collectors out there as FMC used the same designs over and over for many years, e.g., Genuine Ford parts ovals. I can think of 5 variations off hand and all are regularly traded and accepted as originals.

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#306521 - Tue Feb 21 2012 04:15 PM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: gulfoilngas]
MetroPetro Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Mar 25 2005
Loc: North Jersey
First sign pictured in this post is a fake repro. 2nd and 3rd signs are legit.

It does not matter what "George", the guy who sold it to him, the guy who made it, the guy who buys it, the next guy that gets burned , etc. says- nothing will change the fact that the first sign pictured in this post is a phony.

First sign pictured in this post is a fake repro.

It does not matter if someone sells original signs sometimes- the first sign pictured in this post is not original.

Repeat- First sign pictured in this post is a fake repro.
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Looking for photos, etc from 60s era Shell-A-Rama gas station and Pal's Diner, Rt. 17 Mahwah, NJ
& US or state highway signs, shields, route markers

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#306527 - Tue Feb 21 2012 04:29 PM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: MetroPetro]
57tbirdkid Offline
TBA Feature Host

Registered: Tue May 04 2010
Loc: NY
Stories and more stories the proof is in the pudding.....just like the 5th version of the ford sign from India!


Edited by 57tbirdkid (Tue Feb 21 2012 04:32 PM)
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#306663 - Wed Feb 22 2012 07:01 AM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: 57tbirdkid]
Steve in New Mex Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Thu Dec 15 2011
Loc: SW US
The only other one I've seen like it was sold on eBay.
370535915256
It is exactly the same as the one in question, has been beat to death and was sold by someone who has a large inventory of obviously authentic signs.
Making a blanket statement "it's fake" without something more doesn't make it fake. Saying something three times does not make it true.

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#306664 - Wed Feb 22 2012 07:05 AM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: Steve in New Mex]
KZ1000 Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Sun Oct 21 2007
Loc: Mass
2curios has been selling repros along with originals for way too long and it's always the same BS, They know EXACTLY what they have, they are hoping the buyers don't.
_________________________
"Remember, history that is forgotten is doomed to repeat itself!"

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#306667 - Wed Feb 22 2012 08:00 AM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: KZ1000]
Steve in New Mex Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Thu Dec 15 2011
Loc: SW US
And they always list repros carefully.
A thought: if you're correct on this one and others, you are doing the hobby a service. If you are wrong or guessing without in person examination or some other source for your opinion, you are damaging the reputation of a seller AND decreasing the future value of an item that someone may already own.
One would think some circumspection would be in order.

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#306681 - Wed Feb 22 2012 08:49 AM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: Steve in New Mex]
gulfiend! Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Jul 01 2005
Loc: Raleigh, North Carolina
Steve - you're just wrong. They're not 'exactly the same' AT ALL...look at the photos...the 'beat to death' sign you cite (actual photo from the auction number you listed, shown at the bottom of this post) IS an original...once again:



FAKE



ORIGINAL


Edited by gulfiend! (Wed Feb 22 2012 08:51 AM)
_________________________
Looking for better Gulf items: signs, globes, cans and paper - especially porcelain Gulf flanges, and Gulf A-38 & A-62 ad glass...

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#306821 - Wed Feb 22 2012 06:08 PM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: gulfiend!]
Steve in New Mex Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Thu Dec 15 2011
Loc: SW US
OK. I can see the difference there, but what make the one at the top of this post a repro?
the fact that you've never seen one?
why aren't there hundreds of them out there (like Elephant Kerosene or Socony aircraft)?
Who made them?
Does anyone have a source other than opinion?
Would the shelving make a difference?
the dimensions?
Could they be regionally made and not made by Gulf?
Could it be a manufacturing variation - a reorder and a short run?
Or is this site the last word because several people have voted that it is a fake. Said it three or more times. Must be true.

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#306823 - Wed Feb 22 2012 06:15 PM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: Steve in New Mex]
KZ1000 Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Sun Oct 21 2007
Loc: Mass
Buy one of them and enjoy it, You have got info from collectors who know their ***** and who have been collecting REAL signs for longer than these repro pieces of ***** have been around. If you don't believe it that's your problem. some of us Appreciate REAL signs, and KNOW what we're talking about, some like that cheap fake *****.
_________________________
"Remember, history that is forgotten is doomed to repeat itself!"

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#306835 - Wed Feb 22 2012 07:21 PM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: KZ1000]
57tbirdkid Offline
TBA Feature Host

Registered: Tue May 04 2010
Loc: NY
Steve

There are many variations in the two signs. They may look the same to certain people but there are noticeable differences. It is true that some signs have variations. Some of the same versions of signs were made by different sign makers. I have two Firestone signs that are the same signs made by different sign makers and the are almost identical. One thing I have learned is consistency is in most of these early signs. Professional sign makers made these signs back in the day and they did a great Job in the department of consistency. IMO the top gulf signs looks computer generated. I am by no means an expert in this hobby, I am prob one of the youngest guys on here. I believe something is not right with the top gulf sign.
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The most valuable commodity I know of is information-Wall Street

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#306940 - Thu Feb 23 2012 09:50 AM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: 57tbirdkid]
Steve in New Mex Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Thu Dec 15 2011
Loc: SW US
Thank you, KZ1000 for your rude observation. I wish I'd had you on a jury during the 3 1/2 decades I served as a public prosecutor. It doesn't seem to take much to convince you.
I don't collect reproduction items, never have, so I am not one who likes "cheap fake ****" as you say.
And I've been collecting long before anyone ever reproduced a sign, globe or thermometer - probably longer than you have, frankly.
The only thing I still don't get is how you can be so self-righteously sure from a photo without any further proof.
Yes, this sign is different from the other Gulf Supreme signs that are commonly seen, but that fact alone, and it's my supposition that is the only thing upon which you rely, begs the question at hand. As shown, the sign does have chips, some rust stains, evidence of having been mounted, very heavy shelving and the point is well taken that no one has ever seen more of them as is certainly the case with re-pops and fantasy pieces. People will read these types of postings in the future so one would hope that accuracy and some back-up evidence might be required before the blanket "it's a fake" statement is made forever and for all time.

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#306959 - Thu Feb 23 2012 11:59 AM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: Steve in New Mex]
KZ1000 Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Sun Oct 21 2007
Loc: Mass
tired sleep
_________________________
"Remember, history that is forgotten is doomed to repeat itself!"

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#307002 - Thu Feb 23 2012 03:16 PM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: KZ1000]
TheCog Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Tue Aug 10 2010
Loc: Ohio, USA
Have to admit that I enjoy these type discussions immensely. Like most, I hate repops and all my flea-mkt friends hate repops and dont care for those making repops (also dont like outsourcing to 3rd world co. - but that is another topic for elsewhere). Once I see anyone that sells one I stay away. Just gotta look at old posts on here to see the exposures. Story - my buddy had a nice rare item on eBay for sale in excellent condition (big $ item -rare as heck). So for fun I sent him an email and in the subject hinted to him that it was a fake. I almost gave him a heart attack! - LOL. All about credibility. That was all in good fun me knowing it was not as he is an expert like others on this site. People love this old collectible stuff (including me) and take this very seriously for all the stated reasons and it becomes emotive at times. Nothing personal. Story - There was a lady couple yrs ago at local flea mkt which we frequent and she was selling tin phone signs for $35 that she bought at Marcs for $.99 and was laughing about it and having a great time of it. She had a whole stack of these things and would sell one then go put out another one. Well some dude bought one and later on found out about the story and went back and made a bad scene. She stopped setting up at that local flea mkt as the owner found out about the ruckus and asked her to not return. It is about credibility, karma,...

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#307006 - Thu Feb 23 2012 03:47 PM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: TheCog]
Catauladave Online   content
Veteran Member

Registered: Sat Aug 27 2011
Loc: Cataula, Georgia, USA
I know how to settle this. I will purchase one and hang it on a building behind my house. If it disappears...it is real...if it remains...it is fake. LOL Like the Salem Witch Trials...you can't win. LOL
When in doubt...WALK.
Reproductions are getting "better"...take that for what it is worth.
Shake hands and lets have a beer...It is all in fun.
Dave
_________________________
Dave Jones
It's All Just Stuff

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#307014 - Thu Feb 23 2012 04:17 PM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: Catauladave]
Old Iron Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Thu Sep 10 2009
Loc: New Mexico
I think this subject deserves a more reasoned discussion,supported by several examples of unquestioned real signs that demonstrate the differences in the signs as they change over time.Keep an eye on the General Pertoliana Disussion Forum;it's coming up.

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#307040 - Thu Feb 23 2012 05:52 PM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: Old Iron]
KZ1000 Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Sun Oct 21 2007
Loc: Mass
I don't think that is a good idea, Spell out all the minor details that seperate a repop from the original and the Repop guys will take all that info we give them and make their junk even better. You can bet they are monitoring this site.
_________________________
"Remember, history that is forgotten is doomed to repeat itself!"

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#307042 - Thu Feb 23 2012 05:56 PM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: KZ1000]
57tbirdkid Offline
TBA Feature Host

Registered: Tue May 04 2010
Loc: NY
I agree with Rick. I am sure they are watching.
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The most valuable commodity I know of is information-Wall Street

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#307044 - Thu Feb 23 2012 06:01 PM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: 57tbirdkid]
TheCog Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Tue Aug 10 2010
Loc: Ohio, USA
Now that is nearly Orwellian - "Big Bongo" is watching.. LOL -- sorry - i agree with you guys too.

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#307226 - Fri Feb 24 2012 10:57 AM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: TheCog]
Old Iron Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Thu Sep 10 2009
Loc: New Mexico
Point made guys.I could point out several color and image changes in signs over time;both as manufactured and as a sign ages.I'm sure many of you could do the same.But,as noted,why show the repop guys exactly what I'm looking at?

Rather than start a new thread,I'll just make a couple of observations here.First,I've seen too many collectors become so consumed by the fear of buying a pop that they pass on good signs rather than take a chance.Remember,if you are buying to keep,the only one you have to convince is yourself.

The second observation might possibly have revelance to the sign in question;it looks really good!!I've had visitors at my place look at a sign and say,"it's a repop because it's just too good".Well,no,they are not repops;just dead mint.

Just things to think about.

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#307272 - Fri Feb 24 2012 02:08 PM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: gulfiend!]
Steve in New Mex Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Thu Dec 15 2011
Loc: SW US
As this thread has reached an almost philosophical plateau, let me make a last observation based on Old Iron's comments. Some of us have been collecting so long that some items pre-date reproduction anything. I have some Dr. Pepper signs from a warehouse clean out in 1977 that are dead, solid, NOS, mint. I found them in the shipping crates. I can say the same for a couple of my globes and oil signs- bulk plant treasures from long ago. When someone who hasn't seen my stuff - old line collector or a new one - a often get the 'must be a repop, it's too good' reaction.
A collector I know has two Mobil pump plates, made by the same manufacturer (and marked by that company) at obviously different times as the Pegasus logos do not match. Repops? Absolutely not. Just dead solid perfect pieces. And isn't that what we all want?
I've seen the Gulf Supreme sign in question. It is very, very nice and I think if you could see it with its heavy shelving, edge and slight field chips, mounting holes, and the cripsness of the artwork, you'd have to agree that if it is indeed a reproduction, it's one of the best ones ever done.
I was merely advising caution before labeling a dealer as a crook and an item as "obviously fake." One would hope fairness and circumspection would be in order as all comments will theoretically be here forever.
And, yes, let's have a beer . . . .

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#307278 - Fri Feb 24 2012 02:35 PM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: Steve in New Mex]
57tbirdkid Offline
TBA Feature Host

Registered: Tue May 04 2010
Loc: NY
Shelving IMO is not a way to determine if a sign is real or not. Many other factors come into play which some of them you have stated. KZ1000 has been in the hobby for a long time and I am pretty sure he had a very large gulf collection at one time. You have to take into consideration the people making these repro signs are using old techniques to decieve buyers. Don't get me wrong there are new discoveries everyday.
_________________________
The most valuable commodity I know of is information-Wall Street

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#307281 - Fri Feb 24 2012 02:46 PM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: 57tbirdkid]
KZ1000 Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Sun Oct 21 2007
Loc: Mass
In no way would I or we say a sign is reproduction because of the condition being "Too Perfect", it is based on variations, mainly Fonts which are used today that WERE NOT available when the signs were originally made.
As for passing on a sign that is "too nice it must be a repro" that may be the case with a lot of pickers and newcomers, but most seasoned collectors have "the eye" and can tell right off if something is not right.
Could a fake sign get by and fool one of us, certainly, but it is on a very rare occasion. There is NO WAY in writing that we can explain these things to others that have not "been around" and have not been involved in this hobby extensively.
_________________________
"Remember, history that is forgotten is doomed to repeat itself!"

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#307291 - Fri Feb 24 2012 03:17 PM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: KZ1000]
Bob Richards Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Tue Feb 22 2005
Loc: Longview, WA
First of all, NO ONE on Old Gas has been Collecting before repops!

The earliest repop I have personally owned was from the late 1940s.... Quite a few of us have seen signs mounted on tanks and early transports during Korea, most of these were repops.... Before you ask me if I was there? No, but my father was and he started Collecting Gas and Oil items BEFORE it was considered a hobby in the mid to late 1940s...... He and others in his unit bought signs in Japan on R&R and mounted them on his Jeep and on his hooch.

As I posted in a different thread; My father had a sign in his den that he was sure was a repop from the 1920s.....

I myself, started in hobby in the early 1960s.... So if I was at least 2 decades behind repops, then those who started Collecting in the mid 70s,80s,90s etc.... are way behind.......
_________________________
Looking for Tide Water/ Tide Water-Associated/ Tidewater items

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#307295 - Fri Feb 24 2012 03:28 PM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: Bob Richards]
Steve in New Mex Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Thu Dec 15 2011
Loc: SW US
I am beginning to resent K1000's suggestion that I have not "been around" in this hobby. Just because I haven't been on this site until recently or attended any of the gas bash rendezvous is not an indication of how long I've been collecting. I'm pretty confident it is longer than K1000. And that doesn't mean I don't have some experience in detecting fakes. I'm really not that interested in the opinion of one who touts that he knows his "****" if for no other reason than he chooses to uses language like that to establish his credentials.
As for when repops began:
I don't actually recall seeing any gas and oil reproductions until the very early 80s, maybe the very late 70s. That's when the globe inserts started coming out as well as a few porcelain signs.
I don't know what kind of Korean or Japanese repops you are talking about, Mr. Richards, but I doubt they were pump plates, globes or even gas and oil items. And you win the prize for being the oldest collector. I've only been at it since 1968.

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#307297 - Fri Feb 24 2012 03:36 PM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: Steve in New Mex]
gulfiend! Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Jul 01 2005
Loc: Raleigh, North Carolina
...if anyone reading this thread currently owns at least 16 different versions of porcelain Gulf flanges, please drop me a line, I'd love to compare notes - maybe you have a couple I could use wink
_________________________
Looking for better Gulf items: signs, globes, cans and paper - especially porcelain Gulf flanges, and Gulf A-38 & A-62 ad glass...

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#307307 - Fri Feb 24 2012 04:23 PM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: gulfiend!]
Bob Richards Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Tue Feb 22 2005
Loc: Longview, WA
Steve, no way I can convince you, nor can anyone else.... You could see photos, even hold items in your hands and you wouldn't even then believe it.... As you said, the earliest repop you have knowledge of was from the late 70s, early 80s.... So since you didn't have the knowledge to know about them, they couldn't/didn't exist?......

I'm sure there are a lot of experienced and new Collectors alike laughing as they read your comments!

This will be "tongue in cheek", so I hope you understand my sarcasm: If you have/had no personal knowledge of certain Oil Companies, Globes, signage, pumps, smalls.... etc. They never existed, either?
_________________________
Looking for Tide Water/ Tide Water-Associated/ Tidewater items

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#307331 - Fri Feb 24 2012 05:40 PM Re: Gulf Supreme Auto Oil flange [Re: Bob Richards]
KZ1000 Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Sun Oct 21 2007
Loc: Mass
My last post was in no way aimed at anyone, It was to the general public.


Edited by KZ1000 (Fri Feb 24 2012 05:41 PM)
_________________________
"Remember, history that is forgotten is doomed to repeat itself!"

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