Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums Online Auctions, eBay Craigslist Petroliana So I bought an India repop.

I have been reading this forum daily for quite a while and I actually discovered the repops from this forum. Now I do know some of your feelings on repops and I was shocked that some felt the value of the Ford from the other day was only $20 or so. I didnt think you could even buy a tin one for that hardly. I just thought yall might be interested in my experience and I was surprised at the message the seller sent in reply to my feedback. I felt like I owed it to at least post that the sign was a repop after all that I had learned on this forum. In fact I had thought of asking yall what to leave for feedback. I like the sign and I have been looking for years for an original similiar but didnt feel like I wanted to make that kind of investment so when he had this one I jumped at it.260941976992 my feedback:THANKS! THIS IS A REPRODUCTION SIGN. BUT IT IS WHAT I WANTED. his message in reply:"Dear freind, we are not doing businness only for profit just for feedback. this feedback of your will spoil my other feedback. we are selling only genuin sign and sign is also old handmade sign in india from bengal enemal co."
thanks

The sign you bought has very little resale value if it is honestly represented. I believe your sign to be a fantasy sign. As i do not believe it was ever made. If your sign was advertised as an original sign, and you paid with paypal you may be able to get a refund? On the other hand if you are happy with the price of your sign and acknowledge its true identity, thats ok too. You are welcome to post questions befote you buy.

I can understand if you like the sign...but by buying something from these indian sellers you are only helping fund these people to make more signs. Tons of these Indian signs have been selling. Only an advanced collector can tell the difference and sometimes advanced collectors get burned too!! These sellers are bad news and flooding the market with this junk!!!

The Mumbai sign manufacturer plainly says it is a "Handmade Sign ",,, can't get much plainer than that, even the buyer acknowledge's that,,, he knows he bought a repop and he likes it..whats a $150 bucks,,,everyones happy except some of the guys on OLDGAS... Hmmmmm why ? No body is getting hurt here .

Thank you, Thank you! Yes I knew what I was buyimg. i like the sign and it is hanging on my office door and probably will until I die. I understand the frustration of unkown repops and I guess I should have just "stayed in the closet!" about my purchase. I just thought some would be interested because I doubt anyone on here has bought any of these repops, or for sure not told anyone.

I agree with Wes (for the most part), except for the idea that "no body is getting hurt here". Bigboyga isn't getting hurt, he knows the sign is a reproduction, but what happens when this sign is sold a few times away from Bigboyga? Perhaps to a buyer that thought it was an original, and when they find out it's a reproduction they stop collecting signs. If this happens enough there won't be any buyers confidence in the market and value of originals will drop.

It's happened before (Model A's, and globes come to mind).

Just my opinion.

Jamie

Jamie I totally agree.
Its the 2nd/3rd buyer of the sign where the "from India" part gets dropped.
It goes to a local auction or stays in "grandpas barn for 20 years" and then all the sudden its a original sign.
Then its up to the oldgasser versus the auction crowd/seller to somehow prove its fake.
Its the same problem here with TGI Fridays signs made only 25 years ago.

Bigboyga, collectors with original signs are the ones that get hurt. Their 1 original rare sign is now 1 of 100 on the market from India or wherever.

My 2 cents
Mark

One thing I don't understand on here is why does everyone think it is their duty or job to inform someone if they buy a repro anything...why can't everyone mind their own business and leave everyone else alone UNLESS they are asked.. just because a few guys on here think repros are junk, doesn't make up the rest of the world,,and no I don't have any repros of anything and don't buy any... or sell any...There is a place and a market for everything, always has been and always will be..it's a big world out there..

Wes, there is a market out there for repros.
Thats not the issue. Repros are needed for many things, restorations, decorations, people that dont have deep pockets.

The issue is the deception is with buying a repro thinking it is genuine. Huge difference in asking price and future resale value.

Why people on here think its a big deal and make it a point to show what is repro and what is not is because they care.
They care for their friends, new collectors, and total strangers that come to this sight for info.

"why can't everyone mind their own business and leave everyone else alone UNLESS they are asked"

So you are saying its ok for a friend/neighbor/stranger to knowingly spend $1000's of dollars on a known reproduction thinking they are getting an original and for everyone else to stand idly by while this goes on?

Only for the buyer to find out later they've been duped and find out there were people out there that knew it was fake and didnt tell them because they didnt ask?

Is that what you are saying?

...undated, unmarked repros HURT the value of original pieces, and thus the investment made in originals...a couple of examples:

Texaco Marine sign with the gulls
Esso Kerosene

...are originals still worth it? Yes - but there are fewer people willing to stick their necks out to buy them, because of the uncertainty that the piece is in fact authentic...

...the sole reason for that uncertainty, is the existence of undated, unmarked repros...

...the only reason for the existence of undated, unmarked repros is to fool unwitting buyers...

Repro items do have their place in the market. Problem with these signs is they are using techniques to make these signs look original putting made in USA and property of ford motor company markings on the ford signs they are making. Marking these signs could easily decieve a buyer as we have seen some members purchase these signs with intentions of the sign being real from people that have been in this hobby for a long time. If people keep getting burned they will leave the hobby.


Wes I'm sure you have some high end signs in your collection. How would you feel if one of these shmucks started making red indian signs and your $5000 sign became worthless? Not just from a financial view but people were afraid to buy it. This has nothing to do with you personally it's all about how people precieve the market. These Indian repros are and will be an ongoing concern. These are not $12 repro signs. Theses Indian sign makers are selling these with intentions of pure profit and to screw people!!! The poster that started this thread wanted this sign for his personal use which is fine with me. My problem is with the makers.

Don't usually involve my self in the repop argument but I'm wondering what your stance is on the globe maker that produced the fake Polly lense (and others) that sold for upwards of 20k, I don't think that's OK at all. The world is also not that big and it's getting smaller all the time. I think I will still point out repops, asked or not. If you don't you're helping to line thieves pockets, not a good thing no matter what country they're from

Mark it repro w/ permanent marker on back.
Then after you are gone there will be no guessing.

What I'm trying to say is sure I like this site for info and thats what it should be used for, not bad mouthing the sellers that are making and selling reproduction items and saying they are either "new", "handmade" "20 yrs.old" or whatever. I personally don't think repros have hurt the original stuff, people NEED to be educated and thats what this site does, is educate collectors, not bad mouth sellers.. it just isn't in me to do that..There is lots of good advice from expert collectors, auctioneer's and so on and I don't hear expert, professional people running someone down. Express what is original and what is reproduction just leave the sarcastic remarks of others out of the conversation... to me it takes away from the respect of OLDGAS.COM memnbers and makes US sound like a bunch of amatures...

This is what happens when unmarked reproductions change hands a few times.

http://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?ahid=3249&aid=49110&lid=12544183#topoflot

all the way at the bottom
http://rjvintagegarage.com/category/replica-ford-nostalgia/

Jamie

Jamie, what is wrong with the advertising of this repro sign ? ( all the way to the bottom )and what is wrong with $150 for a repro sign thats likely worth $1500-$2000 ?
"The sign is heavy porcelain and has been reproduced utilizing the same process that popularized porcelain signs back in the early 1900′s. The colors are not paints but finely ground glass crystals which, when fired at 1350 degrees fahrenheit, fuse to the heavy steel plate. Each color is applied separately creating a durable, rust resistant sign. Each corner has brass grommets.$ 30.00 "

Wes,

I don't have a problem with RJ's selling this sign for $30 (however, I wish it was marked). My concern is once the sign changes hands a few times an unmarked $30 reproduction sign ends up in an auction with a lot of high end original signs being sold for $190 +17.5% buyers premium, and 7.5% sales tax (to a buyer who probably thinks it's an original).

The only reason why this stuff sells for this kind of money is because there are buyers that will lay down cash for it. If those buyers begin to leave the hobby because they get tired of trying to figure out what is an original and what is fake the value of all of this stuff will drop significantly.

It has happened in the 70's to Model A's, to Confederate civil war artifacts, and it has happened already in our hobby to globes (which I for one will not buy).

Jamie

I think your worrying to much Jamie,,, relax, it will all work out and be OK, it's been going on for years,,, nothing new here.

LOL...

Some just don't get it, Makes you wonder if they are silent partners in the reproduction market.

you see what I mean, that remark is exactly what I'm talking about,,, childish,,,most on here get it,,, it went right by you,,, sorry for that.

Sigh

Decorators vs. Collectors

I know what side I'm on... My advice to anyone reading this forum is to save up your $$ and buy original stuff. Eventually, you'll be glad you did.

bIGBOGA, 1st off welcome to Oldgas,2nd you have every right to buy what you want. I hope this thread don't run you off,you have to agree you somewhat asked for it.
You said you had been looking for orginal for years,then sent feed back that this one was what you wanted. So enjoy it you settled for less than what you really wanted. You was honest enough to say it wasn't orginal here,do us all a favor and mark it as india sign so the next guy don't mud the hobby up.

I am new to the hobby and appreciate all and any advice received on this site. Especially the Online Auction forum where signs are disclosed as fakes. I have been burnt already and now have a better understanding of what to look for and who to trust. Thank you to everyone on this site who has outed fakes and scammers who sell on Ebay.

Jamie P

Funny how some poeples outlook change from when this post was made.
http://oldgas.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=304544#Post304544

If you don't think repops hurt the hobby check out the above link. Killed the value!

I understand this forum was built for the hobbyist and to share finds and share knowledge. Reproduction junk is an issue and always will be an issue from here on out! People on oldgas want to share about reproduction they should keep everyone up to date on this junk. Us that collect original items will always have the same feelings towards reproductions.

John, I never once said that this site should not discuss whether or not stuff is original or reproduction,my bone of contention was that we/members on this site should NOT bad mouth the sellers and call them names and run them down, it is still a FREE country, this was also the opinion of and put on here by the Moderators of OLDGAS.COM

I don't have a problem with marked repops.I'll use marked pop plates and globes on my outdoor pumps any day before I'll put the real stuff out there.

However,I do have a real problem with unmarked pops because they limit the pieces available to me to collect.Maybe it's just me,but I'll get something else before I'll put myself in the position of having to say"but mine is real".Been there,done that with my Esso kerosene (India?) so I'll just avoid the situation in the future when I can.

As to sellers,I'll just say that the only time I swore at someone on here was over unmarked pops.It didn't do any good and I don't do that any more.I'll leave it at that.

Wes you say the repros don't hurt the originals, but you yourself also said you would not buy the white rose globe unless you knew where it had been for the last twenty years. Why is that it's because unmarked repros have hurt the original.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't buy the originals if I knew where they came from ,if Kim ( minuteman) was selling them I wouldn't have any problem at all buying them from him. No different than any other collectible,,as long as you know where it came from. I have sold and bought and still have originals that someone has reproduced and they still bring top dollar.Reproduction items make it more difficult to buy, sell and trade but that doesn't mean we stop dealing in them. Education, thats what it's all about in collecting today,,read, listen and learn,, it's no longer a no brainer in buying and selling, just like any other market.

I believe everyone agrees we need DATED signs and globe for gas pump restorations. I wouldn't put orginals outside anymore.
Question Here.... Why is an answer of "people need to get educated before they buy" a good answer? I know my parents like to go to auctions and buy Coke and gas stuff and they don't want to spend years becoming an expert. They got burned on one sign and stopped buying.

I think if you are a serious collector and are laying out your hard earned money...you should take the time to do the research and know what to look for. With the current market prices of petro items it is critical to do your homework and be familair with what you are buying. Generally when you buy something you have no idea about...you get burned. With the internet, tons of books, and other avail resources...there is no reason one should not take the time and necessary precautions before making a commitment. People who do not do reasearch are lazy. If you not sure or do not feel confident in an item....Walk away. Many of the conterfeit makers in the US and out of the country are getting smart and trying to decieve the buyers. Many fake signs as we have seen have original dates and markings on them. I am sure these are issues people in all facets of collecting experice. Reproduction/counterfeit items are in every industry. Anywhere people can make a buck they will flock.

Jarvis,

I agree with you, there is no protection for the buyer anymore (except on eBay).

You would think that an auction house charging 15% buyers premium (or more) and x percentage sellers premium would do 5 minutes of homework to be able to tell the bidders "this sign is an original", "this sign is a reproduction", or "we don't know if this sign is an original". It's just to easy to say "buying as is, where is"

Just my opinion.

Jamie

Lots of auctioneers know they are selling fakes. They are counting on the uneducated bidder who doesn't.

I agree, if they can make money they will do it. Had a fake porcelain Mobil horse at an auction last week. They said it was from the 70's when in reality it was prob may two years ago. As long as they bid the price up and make buyers think they are getting a deal the auctions houses think they are golden. Many uneducated buyers out there.

Tbird, I agree people need to do there research if your a serious buyer. Not everyone at auctions are "pure gas collectors or serious buyers" though. Like i said my parents loved going and buying and many times paid way more than an item was worth. It didn't matter if they paid to much or to little but they liked it. They didn't like the fact that someone passed off a fake as an original and paid way, way more than it was worth. They have not bought one single item since.

Ugh.......if buying a sign in INDIA, doesn't raise a red flag, what will? Hard for me to feel sorry for people that ignore something like that...jmo.....I agree with Wes.....Either buy at your risk, or wait till your educated......again...jmo. I don't' feel sorry for the folks sending money to Ethiopia either!

The statement of "buyer beware" is the same as the mortgage industry was in 2007-08 and looked what happened to that mess... People need to educate themselves NOT depend on others to do it for them when it comes to parting with their money, take responsiblity and take of yourself.. if it looks to good to be true , it probably is.. WOW, now I sound like an old philosifer.. LOL !!! BUT TRUE !

.

LoL