Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums General Petroliana Discussion New guy seeks auction advice

I’m new to the hobby and this is my first post. This site offers a wealth of information, so I hope that you guys can help with an auction question I have. I’ve attended a few shows in the last year and purchased several signs that I’ve been pleased with, so I decided to try an auction and went to Peotone last Friday. I bid on several items, but was the winning bidder on only items #24 (Goodyear sign) and item #186 the Sinclair pump sign. I have no problem with the Goodyear sign, but I believe the Sinclair sign is a reproduction. I noticed it as soon as the ringman handed it to me, but was too embarrassed at failing to notice it sooner, so I didn’t complain and just paid for the signs and left. Once I got home, I sent a complaining email to Aumann Auctions. Dan Matthews sent me a polite reply and states the he believes it to be an original. So, my question is, did any of you experts see the sign and do you think it is a reproduction? I’m far from an expert, so I don’t want to accuse Aumman of any questionable actions if I’m in error. I see several features that lead me to believe it’s a reproduction, but I will withhold comment for now.

dwm3......Welcome to the best petroliana site in the universe.......maybe sum Sinclair collectors will look up #186 and give you there opinon.........or post a picture of the sign.
What did the description say thats a place to start?
Aumann did my auction a few weeks back and I was surprised that did not seem concerned about signs I had questioned about being a reproduction.I planned on leaving them out of the auction Dan said "we will list them as age unknown someone will buy them" I didn't like that but went along with it.
I HAD A LOT OF BAD EXPERIENCES WITH AUMANN AUCTIONS AND WOULD NEVER RECOMMENDED THEM TO ANYONE.
Sorry I got off your question dwm3.Hope you get the answer your after.
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REX LIKES IT RITE

Welcome to Oldgas Shop Talk.
With all the items out where you can handle them before the auction, the bidder is expected to look items over before the item comes up for bid. That's the big advantage of attending a live auction over bidding from pictures online.

Post pictures here of the sign with close-ups of the suspicious parts. If you need help doing that, just ask. We'll see what other people think when they see the pics.

There are often disagreements in opinions if an item is original or repro. The scientific evidence is sometimes inconclusive.

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Jim "Oldgas" Potts
Your host and moderator

Dwm3--Live auctions are a great place to learn about live auctions and live auctioneers and sometimes the downside of human nature. Usually theres an anouncement that the items are bought as is where is.- Look before you leep.Be careful. Use your head not your heart-dont fall in love with something and let that temporarily blind you. Get there early. Sometimes you have to be like a detective and then you can still get burned.If there is something obvious that was misrepresented, some auctioneers will let you return the item within a few lots. After awhile youll get to know the crooks in your area and the games that are played at auctions in general. If your like me I usually have to learn the hard way. After hundreds of em I still get a "zinger" once in awhile. Your not the first and wont be the last. Take it easy....... Jim

Rex,

Good advice. I am sorry to hear about the way that Aumann listed your questionable stuff. I gained alot of respect for their crew and the way they handled theirselves. But, you have got to speak your mind brother when you feel a certain way.

Thanks, Phil

PHIL LIKES REX AND RIGHT.

Thanks for the comments. I can post pictures and will do so later, but to be fair to Aumann, I thought it best to ask for comments from people who actually saw the sign Sunday. For all Aumann knows, I could have taken an original home and swapped the tag with a reproduction and now post pictures of the reproduction sign. The auction catalog described the sign as: “#186 Sinclair Gasoline PPP sign 13x12 inch rated 9.” There was no warning comment by the auctioneer prior to bidding, although at least one other lot (#70 Mapco Speedway Coils) did receive a warning prior to bidding. I freely admit that what is obvious to me post sale was also in plain sight prior to the sale. I do feel that it’s not right to slip a reproduction into an auction that has 99 percent originals without warning bidders. This is particularly important when there is online bidding. In a perfect world, if the sign is a reproduction, I think Aumann should have had a warning in the catalog and said something at the start of bidding to the effect of: “This sign hasn’t a mark on it. It’s either an unmolested original or a reproduction. Take a close look at it and decide for yourself before bidding.” In retrospect, I know that I should have brought this to the attention of Aumann before paying for it, but since I’m new, I just didn’t know what to do. I also know that this is just one more tuition payment in the school of hard knocks. What I would like though, is a fair and honest opinion as to whether or not the sign is an original. Thanks again for your help.

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here's lot 186 from aumanns website:

Hi- Rub your fingers over the sign- On Real ones you will feel the letters etc are raised- usually the repros are flat with no raised letters- I think orig are done in 2 process and repros all in one process- this might help-thanks -don

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Wanted 5 quart cans

dwm3:

Can you post a shot of the back of your sign. Sometimes, that can help determine the approximate age of the item in question.

As mentioned previously, attending an auction puts the burden on you. And the price the item sold for should be an indication of the 'rarity' of it.

It appears that you paid about $15.00 more (for your sign) than it would have cost you to buy a new one and have it shipped. If it IS an original sinclair pump plate - that's pretty good. If it's a reproduction, you spent a bit more on it than necessary. But not an excessive amount.

But without seeing the back - the crew here can't give you a definative answer.

I did notice that the description on the repro at Gas Pump Heaven states that the sign has rivets - whereas yours doesn't.

Later . . .

Jim



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www.T-waysGraphics.com

The repro Sinclair pump signs all come from the same porcelain factory, regardless of which catalog is selling them. None have grommets, I have a stack of about 200 of them right here in front of me. The problem with this particular sign is that the originals were made until so recently, the process used to make them today is identical to the process that was used to make the sign in the late 60's. I had a stack of originals that were marked T-68 on the back and there wasn't a bit of difference between them and the new ones. I think this is the reason (along with their plentiful nature) that the price has stayed relatively low in comparison to other pump plates.

Since there is no definitive difference in the new ones & old ones, I'm not sure you could make a real case to the guys @ Aumann. And since it sounds like you didn't pay a big amount for it, I would just enjoy it as original, remind yourself to carefully inspect items before you bid, and thank God you aren't having this same conversation about a $1200 sign! Don't feel bad though, I've bought & sold this stuff daily for the last 9 years and I still foul up all the time. Case in point, I was at the Peotone auction also, and bought the Dixie Ethyl on yellow ripple without ever knowing that the globe had different lenses (Ethyl & Power To Pass) on each side. Not that it's a big deal, but I had my head up my posterior and didn't look at it prior to the sale and since I had 2 of my kids with me, I didn't hear them announce it (which they did) before they sold it.

I bought one of these signs about 8 years ago at a petro show. I was told the same thing 5 Quarts mentioned about the raised letters when I asked how you could tell a repro from an original. I compared the sign to a known repro being sold by new parts supplier and you could definitely feel that the letters were detectable to the touch on one and not on the other. Is this true of all repos, I don't know. And I believe that the repo I compared it to did not have any grommets nor did the original. Many originals are marked on the back (SPS62 or such) indicating date of manufacture.

I BOUGHT THESE SINCLAIR P/P FROM A X SINCLAIR JOBBER IN THE SHIPPING BOXTHEY HAD A LITTLE SHELVING........


HOPE THIS HELPS SUM.
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REX LIKES IT RITE

Thanks for all of the helpful replies and photos. It’s not nearly as clear cut as I thought. I’m posting some pictures of the sign. It is clear that it has never been mounted on a pump, but I had no idea that the NOS signs were so plentiful, so that doesn’t mean much. As you can see, there is no stamp or mark on the back. There is a very slight difference in height when feeling between the background and the letters and Dino, but it’s not much. The metal stock is very thin. The porcelain surface seems of a very poor quality with lots of “fish eyes” to use an auto body painting term. They are small craters that result from some form of contamination of the surface as it’s coated. It’s true that I don’t have a lot of money in it as the bid was $100.00 plus 10%, so it’s a rather inexpensive lesson. I thought that the reason I was the only one bidding live on it was that all of you knew it was a reproduction. It now appears that the reason is that there are a lot of nice ones out there and the demand is low. Any additional comments or tips would be appreciated.

Don






Edit to help images to display

[This message has been edited by Oldgas (edited 03-07-2006).]

I'll try the photo again.





[This message has been edited by Oldgas (edited 03-07-2006).]