Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums General Petroliana Discussion For what ever it is worth......

As I don't want to Hi-Jack a certain thread more than it already has been...

I am going to express some thoughts... These thoughts are mine.... Mine alone.... They are based on over 1/2 Century in this particular Hobby... If someone agrees with my thoughts, great! If someone disagrees with my thoughts, great! I really don't care... I am way pass caring if I am "Politically Correct" in my views!!!!!!


I am still trying to "wrap my mind" around a certain concept that was expressed here on Oldgas.

The concept that it is okay to "throw out low ball offers" if an item has no price on it...

I realize that I am finding less and less in common with "some New Collectors"... I believe in doing research, MY OWN RESEARCH before asking others... I believe that if I don't know an actual value or atleast a very close estimate.... I won't throw out a ridiculously "not in the neighborhood low ball offer"... To do so, IMO, embarrasses myself and disrespects the Seller. It also proves to everyone that I have NO IDEA what I am doing...

I DON'T ask for values.... If I need to ask for a value on an item I have ALREADY purchased, then I had no business buying it.... If I own an item and I haven't acquired the knowledge to be able to place a reasonable correct value on it...Then I need to do more research or I'm in the wrong Hobby...

There were so many different Oil Company's that it is impossible for me to know every item, in the way I would like... To help myself and to expand my knowledge. I buy the Collector's Guides. I try to find websites that will add to my knowledge. I will read with interest any and all conversations on places like "Oldgas" and "The Pit Stop". I bookmark web locations that relate to the Hobby. I talk to other Collectors and do seek out those "who have first hand knowledge"...

I try not to show how little I know on a subject by interjecting obvious wrong information (as I said I try not to give wrong info... Sometimes I have failed)

I try to respect those in the Hobby, too often I have failed in this endeavor.. Every time I do fail, I try to do better "on the next go around"... I am not perfect, I am not an expert in any phase of this Hobby... I do want to gather new information each and everyday... If I have wrong information, I do not mind someone sharing the correct information... If someone interjects wrong information into a conversation, then I do mind.... Just as I mind when I GIVE out the wrong information...

I do not have the patience for the same obvious questions over and over.... That is a fault of mine, that most likely WILL NOT be changed....

I do "love" this Hobby. The history behind the different Company's is boundless and really never-ending... Unfortunately... It seems that the History of a Company and an item is not the driving force in the Hobby anymore... It seems that the driving force is now, how fast can I "turn" an item and how much can I get for it.... If I am right and this is the direction so many are going? Then, IMO, this Hobby will suffer "Big time" for years to come...

I am through preaching and will step down from my soapbox....

Bob, I happen to like what ya said sir ............. Ed Shaver

Dick, I know you and I have had differences of opinions, but you have never, that I have seen anyways, directly insulted me or anyone else. For that I respect you, and believe you are one step ahead of quite a few others.

One thing I do want to say is that while I understand some people have an aversion to people (such as myself) possibly asking a bit too much, if it wasn't for people asking questions, there wouldn't be as much information to read. Yes, I asked a lot of questions when I first got on here, but those were just questions I had been wanting to ask for a while. Since then, a majority of my posts have been about items for sale, wanting to buy, or just general discussion. I learned through feedback to buy more collecting guides, which is what I'm doing. I just don't think there is anything harmful in asking. If you don't want to answer the question, don't. Hopefully that person will learn to use Google, eBay, etc. But I've always thought part of this site's charm was turning uneducated people into people who have a desire to be fully knowledgeable.

I think even the most knowledgeable among us need value help on somethings, and I, personally, will never miss out on a great piece just because I need some help. I'd never let anyone on here go wrong or miss out on a piece if I can help it. It is part of what I consider our fellowship to be.

As far as the "low-ball" offers. I don't necessarily think it is ok, but if you don't name a price it is something to be expected. There will always be a mixture of people who are just either uneducated, or crooks. and if you don't want to put up with that, then name a price, or a rough figure of what you'd want. If someone still low-balls you, then I still don't see a point in calling them a name, but would probably just tell them no thanks or make a counter-offer, and move about my day.

On the other end of the spectrum, you, me, no one can say they don't like getting a good deal. I'm sure none of us has ever DEMANDED we pay full price for a piece ourselves lol. I'm also sure a lot of us fuel our hobby by selling some of our pieces, and very seldom do people sell stuff at a loss.

I guess my bottom line is, in everything we do, we should remember the golden rule. We can't do anything to change anyone, so we may as well except it. You have your point of view on some things, I have mine, and I personally believe you communicate yours well. I apologize to you if I haven't properly communicated my point on things at time, but as you said, sometimes we slip up.

Good post Bob.As it happens,you are a step ahead of me.

This afternoon at the yard I actually wrote out a post I was going to make:

HOW TO DESTROY THIS HOBBY

It started out,"It's really easy",then three paragraphics about how to go about it.Now,I'll just watch and read.It should be interesting to see who is posting what.

Great post Bob!

Sounds like your beef should be more-so with sellers who don't price their items. It seems that sellers lately are interested in scraping every last cent out of what they have so they ask for "bids" (which effectively is what "email offers" means). Your rational of taking your time and researching prices, knowing your piece, etc., etc. I absolutely agree with...but sellers should be held to the same standard!

I sell more stuff then most, and I try my best to price things fair so they'll sell quickly. It is beyond irritating when sellers don't price their items. I don't know whether the motivation is greed or laziness, but if you want to auction your items, set an auction or use ebay, if not, fix a price.

JM2C

Well said Bob! I think that the true collectors are NOT the individuals that are involved in this type of mindset, "how fast can I "turn" an item and how much can I get for it....; I believe those of us who love the history and our favorite oil & gas companies know which group fall into this category.

Hit the nail on the head Bob. I went to shows with my dad for years and never said a word to anyone. Sound bad. . . I listened. I listened to every conversation my dad ever got into with anyone, and in return I learned. Did I learn everything, heck no. I eventually had conversations with other collectors that were 30, 40, 50 years older than me because I was honestly interested, and not because TV made it cool to "say" you do it. As easy as the internet has made it for anyone to gain knowledge about anything, it amazes me how many and how often people go here first to do thier "research." The conversations that I have had with other collectors, not just gas and oil, the fad of what we are going through right now will be just that. . . a fad. It will take a while, but once TV is done with the explotation of collectors and "picking," the fad will wear off and something else will emerge. Just today I had a 85 year old man tell me to use the knowledge that I have gained to carry me through period and I would be just fine. Meant alot coming from this guy as I have bought, sold, learned, respected him for years.


"Research is a process of steps used to collect and analyze information to increase our understanding of a topic or issue". It consists of three steps: Pose a question, collect data to answer the question, and present an answer to the question. Check the internet, go to antique stores, go to shows, go to auctions, set the item on your shelf and let someone comment on it, listen to others with more experience with you, sell the item for much less than it worth and find out later that is worth much more. . . all good methods of doing research. Usually if you do the first steps, the last step never happens, but the last one will be the best one for you.

I guess someone needs to define what constitutes a 'low ball offer'

As a buyer I've always led with my lowest possible offer hoping I can get it as cheaply as possible.

Maybe I've been doing it wrong.

I get at least five emails per week asking me about something someone has found. I use to be nice, but I am getting to a point where my time is better spent putting one of my 1000s of items I have on ebay rather than going back and forth with the person.

Recently I went back an forth over an air meter, I finally asked him if he wanted to sell it, but he didn't know what to ask. I made him what I felt was a good offer (especially since I couldn't see it), but he said he was going to take it to IG and see what it would bring. In other words, he used me to establish a starting price, but....well it doesn't matter.

A couple of things Bob said above I don't completely agree with, but that was not the reason he wrote this post, he was expressing his feelings, and we should not pick apart his post.

I have never met Bob, but I would sure like to. Everything we have done between us has been done on a gentelman like basis, and I feel the same pains he expressed above.

Besides ECOs, I don't sell much of anything besides literature. Back when I was writing the first Gas Pump book I wrote to a museum asking them for information on a company that years ago was in their town. The museum wrote back that if I sent them $35.00 (which I did) they would get someone to research the company.

About a month ago, the Model A Museum emailed me about information they wanted. I told them the story above, and said when I needed research I paid for it, now that I have written four books, people feel that I should be giving away my reseasrch. I never heard from them again. Knowledge is not free, I know I had to pay a lot of money buying gas pump and air meter literature in order to write the books.

I know where you are coming from Bob, but sometimes it just seems like we are beating our heads against the wall.

Jack Sim

My opinion below applies to the many CL ads I come across and not for oldgas. Most of the stuff on here either has a price given or it is something that has sold enough to get a ballpark value for either offers or a selling price.

From a buyer perspective:

A seller HAS to have some price in mind they will accept for an item when no price given.

If not, how will they know whether to accept an offer?

And since they DO have a price in mind, why wont they list it? Or list it above what they want and come down? Or list a firm price they will take? Are they trying to find that recent lottery winner to offer them that dream amount of money for it?

No price invites lowballing ALONG with serious offers.

Making offers with no price given are only guesses at what the sellers thinks its worth, which in my opinion wastes both of our time.

I always get back "its worth three times that".
My thought is "THEN WHY DIDNT YOU LIST THAT PRICE IF YOU KNEW?"

lowball offers WITH a sales price given are something different-I'm asking $1000 and you are offering $200
that in my opinion is a disrespectful lowball offer.
I believe thats the kind of offer on oldgas sellers are trying to weed out.

Now if these items are actually SELLING for $200 on the seller has some collector book with a 1995 value of $1000 on it, thats different. Are you lowballing then or being realistic?

And then every blue moon you find an item the seller really just wants out of their house and will accept just about any offer.

As a buyer, if a price and picture are given, I can quickly decide whether I have interest in an item. Too high? Not mint enough? I just move on.

if price or picture arent provided, I have to contact them to ask questions, get a picture, figure out condition/missing parts, etc.
Only to find out after multiple contacts/emails that its either too high, too bad a shape, etc.

Provide all that up front and you get more actual interested buyers contacting you.

My .02 as a buyer.

i think alot of low ballers are flippers just trying to take advantage to make a buck. Seems like there is some newbies trying to do that lately on this site. thats insults me even if I'm not the seller. (maybe I'm easly insulted, lol) Jack Sim that sounds like a full time job emailing people back, and I would have gotten tired of it years ago. Perhaps, you should start charging for estimates ? If you feel they are just flippers.

p.s. what's a Tok. 300 worth ? it's painted green think that increases value ? also when was it made ?
(just kidding) lol

Hey Bob!
If I was to offer up "a penny for your thoughts" would that be low-balling "your 2-cents worth" ????? <<<<big grin>>>>
What is something old worn, out of date really worth? With people from all over the world able to access the internet you have such a wide variety of levels of interest and DEEP or not so deep pockets. The hobby/business needs new people all the time otherwise all this stuff goes to the dump.....again(for some)Take care! tt

...I agree with many of the posts above, especially Bob, Jack and Chadrock...Ohio Oil has a valid point when he says "as a buyer I've always led with my lowest possible offer hoping I can get it as cheaply as possible", because the seller is almost always starting his price out at the highest point - as a friend of mine said, when I expressed disbelief at a price he had put on a sign: "you can't go up, but you can always come down"...

...regarding 'making offers'...it seems to me that a LOT of sellers are scared to death that they'll underprice something, and lose a few bucks, so they refuse to price the item...what Marxmobilgas said:

"A seller HAS to have some price in mind they will accept for an item when no price given. If not, how will they know whether to accept an offer?"

...I agree - the fact is, the reason they DON'T post that price is that they're hoping someone will offer a lot MORE...something to think about: accepting that over-the-top high offer, for something obviously not worth that offer - well, to me that's just the "other side of the coin", of a buyer making a low opening offer...I've always defined 'lowballing' as making a very low counteroffer to a posted price...if the price isn't posted, lowballing can't occur...

...what Jack said about someone 'taking offers' and using that info to appraise his item - I'm not a big fan of that, either...I'd much rather they find out what they want for that item, and then if I don't want to pay that much and they don't feel like negotiating, I walk away...I'm not allowed to price gas at the gas station, why should I have to price someone else's stuff?

...if you want to buy an item, you are incapable of giving an absolutely unbiased offer for that item...no matter how nice a person you are...

...regarding the lack of scholarship evidenced in the 'new blood': when the globe books came out, I ordered 4 copies for myself and a couple close friends...we got together and pored over them like monks, the silence broken every few minutes by 'check out the _____ globe on page ___', followed by some sort of appreciative, obscene commentary...

...repeat this scene several times, for most of the guides or photo books that have been released...

...the first show I went to was Mason-Dixon in 1997...we walked around and compared prices on items, and bought what we liked and could afford...so much stuff concentrated in one place made me wish I hadn't spent so much, just to scratch the itch, at the flea market, where the stuff was few and far between...when we got back to the hotel, we compared our purchases, and looked through the books...I got on Don Raleigh's mailing list (which was pretty cool - I miss the photocopied pictures and lists - and scrambling to the phone to call about a piece before it sold) and met many of the collector/dealer friends I still have today...

...the point of all of this rambling, is that we used to discuss the stuff between ourselves, and we STUDIED it...of course we didn't have the internet, but we had telephones - we just didn't wear out the telephone lines asking questions easily answered (even then) with a little page-turning...I think Nicole put it best when she made the analogy of the privilege of asking questions of experts, as gold coins...to be spent carefully...

...it's WAY too easy to take a picture, put it on Oldgas, and say 'how much is this worth?'...even easier, apparently, than to browse eBay or the auction sites...to me, if the piece is common, you can find the 'going rate' on eBay...if it's rare or uncommon (meaning you have REALLY looked and can't find it, or something very similar, anywhere else), it's going to be nearly impossible to assign a value to it anyway - the only real way to get a value for it is to sell it at auction...

...that's my .02 worth, but I'm willing to entertain offers...

Well fellas this is my first post. Ive been browseing this site for several years because i was interested in the hobby but without the means/money to get involved. I understand where the old gassers are comming from i really do im a young man of 29 years and i know how it is to be a up and commer in this trade. I dont ever low ball anyone i make a fair offer. I am forever greatfull to you boys who have been at this 20-30-40-50 years you guys who were getting these 68 gulf with ears the day the gulf guy put the platic one up. You boys made this hobby what it is. The history of this advertising is a beautifull thing as i sit writing this to you im looking all these signs and all of the patrons that were brought in off the street buy these magnificent colors and images .To think that an entire family pulled into a cities service station in there pontiac chiefton too "filler up" and used this pump. I ask my dad who's 65 all the time dad what was it like in the 50s at a gas station. Did you ever go to a red crown station and se them crowns all lit up. He says im sure i did. But it was just a gas station. I said all that to say this. I know that you guys have alot of time spent in this "hobby" and i know that you get tired off these guys with there low offer and lack of knowledge. I do too. But not everyones dad was a petro guy. Not everyones dad was a horse trader and taught there son the art of the deal. I get that i really do. But this hobby isnt yours its ours youve just been doing it longer and have more time and stuff than some of us. We cant all get up to iowa gas to listen in on conversations some of us are stuck in middle georgia with a mortgage. We are all in this together and i love to learn everthing i can from anyone i can. And i will teach anyone i can about everything i know. Which isnt alot but it might be more than he knew. " cant we all just get along"

welcome to Oldgas..

I would NEVER dream of offering somebody only 50%, or even 60% of what they were asking. If we're that far off then we see things differently and I move on. If they don't have a price on an item they are selling, then in my opinion there is no such thing as a low ball offer and they have no right to be upset.

Enter Pawn Stars, Hardcore Pawn and all the other "reality" shows. They routinely offer as low as 10% of what the person is asking and usually agree on less than 40% of the sellers initial offer. People entering the hobby seeing this can only think this is the norm, until they are educated?

Of course those that have been doing this for just a short time know that those shows are BS and an offer of 50% or less is an insult, but that life and we all educate low ballers in a way that pleases us.

I hate negotiating, both as a buyer and seller. If I'm selling something, I already have it priced. I will accept one offer and I'll counter stating this is the lowest I'll go. If they offer less after that, then the price goes up. A lot of people walked away upset at that, but I'm a man of my word and that's how "I" do my part in educating them.

TOTALLY AGREE.
Even better after they walk away & someone else buys the item, then 1st refusal comes back & sees item is marked SOLD or item is GONE!
Love it when they ask what I sold it for? Most times my reply is, It don't matter, it's GONE.

This is what I do for a living, and I learned from my dad who did it and he learned from my grandpa who did it, I make quite the living "picking" but let me tell ya those shows that are on t.v really make it a lot harder, although they can be educational. I just had one of my gas pumps up for sale, it needs a restoration but the first 2 offers were less then half of my asking price.

When it comes to buying pumps (mainly the common stuff) I'll even use Jack's book to show the farmer or seller what the current value of the thing is. Most of the time this works because it gives them peice of mind knowing they got current book value. Trading "up" is a better advantage if they are willing to do it. Takes to long to explain this concept. Low balling is a DANGEROUS move because it can blow your chance of owning it. Good Luck Goober

I think buying and selling is a skill honed through experience and developed over time. Requires an ability to build rapport and instill a sense of confidence and integrity. Once a level of mutual fairness has been established then it's matter of reading the other party. Usually the more experienced and confident party will be able to exert some amount of favorable persuasion over the less experienced party.

Much like a card game.

In many countried i've visited haggling is expected, and appreciated even on new merchandise. The art of haggling and eventually reaching a good price making both parties happy is an enjoyable part of the process to me in many cases. However, that doesn't apply if the person says they're price is firm and I always ask if they're negotiable first. Of course if you say "make an offer" you get what you've earned.

I've visited the same barn for multiple years and discussed the same item each time before finally going home with it. Those are treasured picking times to me.

I also quite often buy items outright that are fairly priced, especially if it's something I have to have.