Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums General Petroliana Discussion Value

I wonder if we can have an open, yet polite discussion on exactly how the value of a particular items is arrived at.

I don't mean condition, that's obvious as a percent of damage or distress to an item -vs- it's total value.

What I am asking is, why does one person think they have the only correct valuation of every item they see? I've just seen far too many rude comments based on value, and would enjoy hearing some comments taken away from the context of an argument over a particular item.

I will personally say that while I very much appreciate input and assistance with identification and valuation when I am uneducated, I take every opinion I get and lump it in with whatever else I know and then consider my region and market and determine my own value.

Value is what YOU think its worth and what YOU want to pay..market value is.not when two people battle it out at an auction and drive prices up to create a precieved value.

So if one of those two people is you.. then what? You contradict yourself.

Dave, I don't think people feel they have "the only correct values." I think you vastly misinterpreted the intentions of my posting, which was to help people, then attacked my notion of value (based upon a public sale), and went on to have my thread deleted which could help future owners of similar pieces so you can start your own thread??

I don't get it.

Value is what one man will give and another will take. I don't see how pointing at auction records to get a rough estimate of value is in any way improper or shows "people in the hobby having no idea what they are talking about" as you put it.

Auction records can be all over the place, it is up to a seller to determine what they ask for a piece, their avenue of sale. Flaging peoples informative posts that show records of prices realized is ridiculous.

It seems senior oldgas members like to target the noobies or something? I was harassed after trying to politely point out my opinions on actual value of the sign, which numerous "experts" thought was around $400. Obviously I was correct, and uploaded the price realized which was vastly different than what the consensus on value was to use as future refrence. Somehow me adhering that the price realized was the "value" offended you. It shouldn't be offensive to anyone, for any reason. I put up factual information as a refrence and was shot down yet again. I won't be suprised if this post is deleted aswell....

Value is a matter of prespective. Is a one of a kind Picassco worth $1 million, $15 million, $50 million? It would be worth practically nothing to me, I don't collect Picassco.

Auction estimate (accepted value by the art community) might be $1-2 million in a retail gallery, yet the piece goes for $45 million because it's rare and people want it... what is the value? Very subjective.

You are right.....sometimes one of those two people will have a set limit on what they feel comfortable with.... but sometimes at auctions its about ego and people will over pay just to say they got it and look like the winner...I rarely buy at live auction just for that reason. If a price is driven up by two people does it mean the rest of the market will pay that price? If a Texaco fire cheif pump plate is bid up to $500 is it really worth that price in the general market?

No Fishwacker, I didn't have your post deleted and I have no idea why you think that. I did notify an admin (as they request you do) that some people had posted rather rudely in my personal opinion towards you.

I believe you are attributing that same post I reported to me as the poster, of which I am most definitely not.

I did post a reply on your thread which essentially defended you and pointed out that I thought you were correct and that "value" is often misinterpreted. Then the thread was deleted. Then I had the idea to see if there could be a fair and open discussion about value, so I started this thread.

I would prefer it to not be a continuation of your thread please.

Dave, I can admit when I'm wrong and obviously was wrong here, I apologize. The notion of how value is derived on anything is a very interesting topic. A great example of this is how people price things at a garage sale. I also collect pocket watches, antique fishing gear etc, uncommon things most people are unfamiliar with. Someone might think "oh" that's trash for a nice split bamboo rod for example and price it for $5 or $10 that I would happily pay hundreds of dollars for elsewhere in a retail market.
Supply, demand, education, proper marketing, are all factors.

You are correct, I was upset with a senior member that had thousands of posts and with it so quickly deleted accidently identified you as that person.

Dave i sent u a pm. Thanks, adam

Sometimes you guys take this way too serious.

This topic can get ugly quick, so I'm gonna get mine in early!

A new member had purchased a pump, and asked the value, because they wanted to be sure that they didnt pay too much. I replied with "If you got it for $xxx.oo, you did good". Somebody, an "intermediate" MEMEBER, (AND YES, THAT IS MY OWN RATING) had replied with, "I'd buy them all day at $xxx.00"...

That memeber, never made an attempt, when I had the same pump for sale at that price...

TOO many times, people have offered an opinion, only to be blasted! Too many times, "Pickers" ( and this is likely to get me on probation AGAIN" buy something, THEN ask for a value. Only to offer it for sale here, and/or argue the estimate.

It is my opinion, that the "Value" forum be eliminated, and that Oldgas goes back to the guidelines that I agreed to, which stated that its inappropriate, to ask for a value...

Again, let me state, FOR THE RECORD, the "value" forum, NEEDS TO BE ELIMINATED!!! Then these type of posts wont come up anymore.

Welcome back Thunder-pants!! Good to hear from you again!

Value - relative worth, merit, or importance

These three descriptors in one definition of value kind of sum up the arguments.

Relative worth - meaning a relation to something else, or intrinsic value(like a precious metal).

Merit - Quality compared to all others known

Importance - To an individual - their desire to possess
In relation to a class - rarity in comparison to all other options. Thus compare a Rembrandt to a Starving Artist painting.

Books can give you ideas on relative worth, auction results, insurance replacement tables.

Merit based on others seen, is it better, average, worse? If it's better than what is usually found available then higher, otherwise it's average or lower in value.

Importance is the most subjective definition because it comes down to the individual to decide. Does it complete or enhance a collection? Is it an investment seen to have future greater value ? Is the amount secondary to the desire to have ownership.

Value is an idea which has always been argued and always will be as long as one person possesses something that someone else is willing to give up something to get that something.

My 10 sheep are worth 1 camel, my 5 dollars are worth 100,000 Rial(Iranian currency).

It really comes down to what someone finally agrees to receive in exchange for that thing they've got. Some are willing to wait years to get their price, while others happily exchange future opportunity for present surety. A value set today is ethereal until some future point when an exchange occurs, then the value bar is either affirmed, lowered, or raised and once again becomes ethereal.

When i ask a fellow collector/ picker/ dealer a value i ask what its wide open retail is. I tell ask them to honestly tell me what its worth and what they will give me for it and tell them that i know those two numbers are not going to be the same. If someone wants me to value an item before they purchase it i tell them its worth for example wide open retail 500 dollars you should give no more than 300 and i would give you 400$. Keep in mind that i like a deal so dont get angry.

Yeah, lets not get to upset about values. But...we can certainly learn from other peoples mistakes, such as the Florida auction back in the summer where people were paying $35,000 + each for gas pumps. Don't get angry, get out there and look. "You'll never make any money or find stuff if you're sittin around flippin through the channels!" Good Luck Hunting! Goober

The Value of an item is what the poster [in Their Opinion] is willing to give for item pictured & should not be quoting what something at auction/ebay [Mint or Junk] recently sold for.

IF you bought it for Resale, mark it up & see if it sells.

The Value Forum should be What something is Worth BEFORE you buy it. You wouldn't have bought it IF you thought it was over priced. You bought it thinking it was Under Priced OR YOU Liked it & wanted it for your collection.

I'd like to see oldgas return to it's Roots, Petroliana Items Only.
No old trucks, cars, General Store signs, Soda/Beer signs, Random pictures. Most of US collect more than just Petro, BUT there are other Forums/Web Sites for that stuff.

Someone mention currency and it reminded me of something that may be a good example.

I lived in West Africa for a short time, and they have a regional currency. The exchange rate is clearly set at the forex, HOWEVER if you went there with minty crisp 100's you got more for them because of a perceived value through their view of the US.

So far some people have made great points.

good stuff

Value of an item is an opinion and at best subjective. Personal preference and bias play a big role in determining value...to a degree valuations are a personal process. You can have to very experienced long time collectors look at the same item and have two differing expert opinions pertaining to value. Neither is wrong and both are correct.

It's much like pricing at swap meets, retail stores and ect...everyone has their own opinion of what an item is worth and this is reflected in varying prices amongst vendors for same or similar items.

I learned a long time ago that everyone is entitled to an opinion and everyone else should respect their right to hold a differing opinion.

Buying something that isn't a necessity has an emotional facet to it that impacts the sale. Finding a desired collectible takes that up another notch, and then finally finding a long-desired object goes even further and we can lose sight of reason. I would agree that those instances unfairly influence the way items are priced, but not much.

Rarity should demand a premium on anything from new to old. What shouldn't demand a premium yet does (and drives us all nuts is whether an item has been featured on TV. It's a good example of how value can change just by perception though.

Because, value is a personal process, every one derives it or comes to it with a different approach.

I have two different buying modes. They are dependent upon if I am buying for my business or to add to my collection. When I am buying for my business then it is strictly a business transaction. I like to buy based on a percentage of the resale value. With the focus being on the greatest return for my investment.

When I am purchasing for my collection, it's not a business transaction, but rather something I'm doing for myself. If I want the item then in this instance I will place a greater value on it then say the person who is buying it for an investment.

Some collector's always buy based on price point, every item has to be bought with a reasonable expectation of profit. They always buy with resale value in mind. Therefore they will always place wholesale values on items and values that are below what a collector buying strictly for pleasure will pay.

A collector buying for pleasure is in a mindset that is not dependent upon resale value. They will pay whatever it takes to purchase the item. For them ownership is a privilege that cannot be determined or limited by monetary considerations. They will forge their on value if need be. For them value is always at retail or retail +.

These two collector's will place differing values on the same item.

Vale= opinion. Opinion cannot be right or wrong.

We as humans, for whatever reason, enjoy to know what each other's opinions are, and seem to enjoy knowing our opinions are in line with most of the general populace. Just look at political parties, fashion trends, etc. etc.

If I have a Texaco Fire Chief pump plate, I can value it at $1,000 all day long. If someone pays $1,000 for it, guess what, I was right, and you cannot say otherwise. If, in your opinion, it's worth $200, and you can get it for that, then you were right.

I think value boils down to- What can you sell/buy something for?

It's more of a game than anything else. It will remain than way unit the hobby gets more regulations and standard grading scales (such as the hobbies of art, and etc.)

You have people that will blow big money on the littlest things, and you have people that are Scrooges and refuse to spend more than $100.

It's a system of checks and balances. But there will always be a general consensus, and it's best just to shut up and not argue with that.

I was going to stay out of this one,and it has been a long time since I corrected another members thoughts here on oldgas.Now, I think an important distinction needs to be made;the difference between value in $$$ ,which money can buy,and the worth of a piece when one considers it's place in the preservation of history.Money can buy only things;it cannot buy documented history unless the one who researched and assembled a collection of such pieces decides to sell it,RATHER THAN DONATE IT TO LOCAL MUSEUMS!!

Eddy,you are wrong when you say,"It's more of a game than anything else".To some,those in pursuit of money,perhaps.To others,it is no game when we go after particular pieces.Simply my thoughts;nothing more.

Well said, Something I have been sitting on my hands wanting to say. To collectors when is to much when that one piece comes up that you don't have.
Note in point I wouldn't give you 1000 dollars for a truck load of texaco items. That rare Pierce item I will jump over the moon to try to obtain it.

To most of us buying is secondary to just finding an item we don't have.
When our time comes to pass, these items will be passed/sold to the next generation, hopefully they will also be collectors. We are caretakers of the Past for future collectors.

Dick,
I like your take "We are caretakers of the past for future collectors" I fully agree!

Old Iron I didn't mean that the Hobbie itself was a "game" I meant the idea of value in general is a game of up and down until a standard is achieved such as a universal accepted grading and autheticicating system.

I could say our hobby is a game of hide and seek or chess, when trying to find a particular piece lol.

I wouldn't dare bring up value in the same sentence as historical provenance, importance, or anything of the sort for any item.

Eddy there is a grading scale...this hobby does have a grading scale as with any antique or collectible item....in todays market i think a select amount of people getting into the hobby condition does not matter....look what poor quality signs are bringing these days? Perfect example is this months PCM article. Wayne Henderson did a FANTASTIC job of giving an overall view of the hobby. The relation between current market supply and quality of items. Value is based on many things. Supply and demand is a huge factor. Less and less items are avail to market and many of the quality pieces are in collections( I find great stuff in the wild but it is getting much harder to find). Many things go into grading items. I am not the type of person that has to have every item in my collection look like a fine work of art with no flaws. Its nice to have some patina on some items. There are many collectors looking for dead mint items. Grading of signs, cans, ect is a very important part of any hobby,

I once went to a small village in China near Korea, and one of the elders there took us out on a hike to visit a temple where people go to pray, and meditate. The place was really amazing and I asked the man about it's history. he explained that the temple was built around 1100 years ago by the monks and that the entire thing contained no nails or pegs but was all hand joined.

We as Americans have a love of the wrecking ball more then history, we could take a page on that from some other cultures.

Tbird I know of the traditional 1-10 grading scale. I just meant that, in my opinion, value would be a bit easier to determine across the board if it was more nationally accepted and promoted. For instance, it may help if oldgas had a forum dedicated to grading items.

I enjoy collecting coins. You can easily send a coin to NGC or about 2-4 other companies to be certified on the Sheldon scale. Something like that contributes a LOT to being able to keep prices in check to make sure people get their monies worth, but also prevent you from being able to sell a coin for 5 times its value so easily.

Again, just my opinion.

Most sellers of Signs, Globes, Pumps, Cans, etc. on ebay are Not Collectors & Very Very Few will spend the $$ ea way to send an item anywhere for Grading.

There are TOO many VARIABLES w/ pictures posted, lighting, focus, 1 side, 2 sided, painted, porcelain. On pumps; all original parts, repaired parts, repop parts, missing parts, etc. These are Not as easily/cheaply shipped as a coin.

It would be great if this hobby could have grading, but it's not a thing that could happen. Even two identical pumps restored with all original parts and given the best of everything by their respective owners will have different values.

Always has been one thing I notice and get a chuckle out of. Some of the most nitpicky collectors who rail on new guys about their opinions have to admit that what is sold in the region they live can sell for double a few hundred miles away or nearly nothing somewhere else.