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#363968 - Thu Oct 18 2012 04:58 AM "Contains lead" sign for Tokheim 39 tall.
Steven C. Online   content
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Jun 01 2012
Loc: MICHIGAN
If you were trying to do a period correct pump, which sign would be correct for a Tokheim 39 tall?? Or would either fall into the years of the 39 tall?

Any other info on the why the two different versions of this would also be appreciated.


Attachments
contains lead.jpg

tetraethyl.jpg


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Steve Coppens
Always interested in Sunoco items!
Really want a Sunoco National pump ad glass!!

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#363970 - Thu Oct 18 2012 05:22 AM Re: "Contains lead" sign for Tokheim 39 tall. [Re: Steven C.]
tbuckles Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Wed Sep 10 2003
Loc: Carthage, IN USA
The Tetraethyl sign would be correct for your pump. Somebody on here may know the year that the Antiknock started, the earliest I have seen the Antiknock is on early sixties Sunoco blend pumps.
Tom
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#363982 - Thu Oct 18 2012 08:16 AM Re: "Contains lead" sign for Tokheim 39 tall. [Re: tbuckles]
Steven C. Online   content
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Jun 01 2012
Loc: MICHIGAN
Thanks tbuckles. Hopefully someone can expand on this.
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Steve Coppens
Always interested in Sunoco items!
Really want a Sunoco National pump ad glass!!

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#364165 - Fri Oct 19 2012 12:20 AM Re: "Contains lead" sign for Tokheim 39 tall. [Re: Steven C.]
Jack Sim Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Nov 10 2000
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Antiknock was used by the Ethyl Corp. in the 1920s when they first came out with their product. I have many ads with that in big letters.

Jack Sim
_________________________
Author, Gas Pump Identfication books 1st & 2nd Editions & Air Meter Identification books
We rebuild ECO air meters and sell parts.

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#364171 - Fri Oct 19 2012 04:31 AM Re: "Contains lead" sign for Tokheim 39 tall. [Re: Jack Sim]
Steven C. Online   content
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Jun 01 2012
Loc: MICHIGAN
Jack, Thank you very much for your response. So just to clarify, if the antiknock goes back as far as the 20's, is it correct to say that either sign would then span the years of the 39 tall?
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Steve Coppens
Always interested in Sunoco items!
Really want a Sunoco National pump ad glass!!

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#364260 - Fri Oct 19 2012 05:31 PM Re: "Contains lead" sign for Tokheim 39 tall. [Re: Steven C.]
keithia Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Dec 14 2001
Loc: USA
No. I have only seen the anti-knock version on newer 60's pumps as said before and I would not put one on a tall 39. The anti-knock slogan may have been used in other contexts but not on the lead signs until the 60's or so.


Edited by keithia (Fri Oct 19 2012 05:32 PM)
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#364261 - Fri Oct 19 2012 05:42 PM Re: "Contains lead" sign for Tokheim 39 tall. [Re: keithia]
Steven C. Online   content
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Jun 01 2012
Loc: MICHIGAN
Thanks for the clarification Keithia. I'm not sure I understand then what Jack was saying. Unless someone says otherwise, I'm going to shop for the second one.
_________________________
Steve Coppens
Always interested in Sunoco items!
Really want a Sunoco National pump ad glass!!

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#364263 - Fri Oct 19 2012 05:57 PM Re: "Contains lead" sign for Tokheim 39 tall. [Re: keithia]
Bob Richards Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Tue Feb 22 2005
Loc: Longview, WA
I'm not sure about when the "Contains Lead" signage.... First was used....

But "Anti-Knock" Properties of Ethyl Gasoline touted just that... "Anti-Knock"..... back in the 20s... As Jack, said....

Here are a few of those magazine ads from the late 20s and 1930/31:






As to the "Contains Lead" signage... For me the older (IMO) "Tetraethyl" signage as below would be correct on the older Visibles and Electrics......

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#364297 - Fri Oct 19 2012 09:58 PM Re: "Contains lead" sign for Tokheim 39 tall. [Re: Bob Richards]
cosdencop Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Tue Aug 16 2011
Loc: texas
In Check The oil it says tetraethyl is the older of the 2 dont remember the dates though .

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#364302 - Fri Oct 19 2012 10:26 PM Re: "Contains lead" sign for Tokheim 39 tall. [Re: cosdencop]
st.rod Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Feb 15 2002
Loc: Edgewater, Colorful Colorado
Back to the original question about what would be right on a '39'

Answer is!

Tetraethyl

The later signage said 'antiknock'

as said before late 60's


Larry
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In memory of DB 9/12/49 - 8/28/14

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#364310 - Fri Oct 19 2012 11:59 PM Re: "Contains lead" sign for Tokheim 39 tall. [Re: st.rod]
Jack Sim Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Nov 10 2000
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
I only know literature, these guys know more than I do about signs.

Jack Sim
_________________________
Author, Gas Pump Identfication books 1st & 2nd Editions & Air Meter Identification books
We rebuild ECO air meters and sell parts.

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#364326 - Sat Oct 20 2012 07:16 AM Re: "Contains lead" sign for Tokheim 39 tall. [Re: Jack Sim]
Steven C. Online   content
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Jun 01 2012
Loc: MICHIGAN
Thanks to all for your help!!

Using only the data presented in this thread, it seems to me that although "Ethyl" advertised their product as an antiknock product, the actual "contains lead" warning signage in the earlier period did not use the word "antiknock".
I'm going to do my best to search out as many vintage pics of 39 talls that I can and see if I can confirm this for myself.

I did learn something else big in this though. Being very green to the hobby, I didn't know that Ethyl was an actual gasoline brand unto itself. I thought that they were only an additive that sold to gasoline manufactures. I need to also check this out more for myself.

Again thanks to all!!!!
_________________________
Steve Coppens
Always interested in Sunoco items!
Really want a Sunoco National pump ad glass!!

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#364359 - Sat Oct 20 2012 11:05 AM Re: "Contains lead" sign for Tokheim 39 tall. [Re: Steven C.]
Old Iron Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Thu Sep 10 2009
Loc: New Mexico
I agree with the other guys;tetraethyl.As you begin looking at pics of old pumps I think you will notice that on many tall 39's the signs are mounted on the doors rather than on the sides of the pump.I mention it because on my tall 39 they were mounted on the doors.When I restored it,I put them back on the doors where they had them.Good luck.

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#364426 - Sat Oct 20 2012 08:43 PM Re: "Contains lead" sign for Tokheim 39 tall. [Re: Old Iron]
Jack Sim Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Nov 10 2000
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Bob Richards may correct me on this, but I do not believe that gas was sold under the brand name of Ethyl, I believe it has always been an additive available to any company.
Also, if I remember correctly, Ethyl was owned by General Motors, but used Dayton, Ohio as its address, because it was devoloped there.

Jack Sim


Edited by Jack Sim (Sat Oct 20 2012 08:44 PM)
_________________________
Author, Gas Pump Identfication books 1st & 2nd Editions & Air Meter Identification books
We rebuild ECO air meters and sell parts.

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#364430 - Sat Oct 20 2012 09:13 PM Re: "Contains lead" sign for Tokheim 39 tall. [Re: Jack Sim]
keithia Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Dec 14 2001
Loc: USA
I agree with Old Iron and Jack on their above comments.
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#364435 - Sat Oct 20 2012 09:27 PM Re: "Contains lead" sign for Tokheim 39 tall. [Re: keithia]
Bob Richards Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Tue Feb 22 2005
Loc: Longview, WA
A little history of TEL: tetraethyl lead and the Ethyl Corporation...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraethyllead

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethyl_Corporation
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#364438 - Sat Oct 20 2012 09:37 PM Re: "Contains lead" sign for Tokheim 39 tall. [Re: keithia]
Dave's Garage Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Mon Dec 05 2011
Loc: Abbotsford, British Columbia, ...
Ethyl is short for: tetra ethyl lead, an additive added to gasoline. Ethyl gasoline was developed by General Motors and Standard Oil in the early to mid 1920s. Once higher compression engines were installed in vehicles there was a need for a fuel that would/could compress enough to burn at the correct temperature and ignite at the correct time once compressed.... (avoid pinging/ anti-knock, loss of power and backfires... etc.....)

Ethyl grade gasoline was sold in every state by every Oil Company. Some Company's called their higher grade gasoline Ethyl, some called it Premium, others Aviation Grade gasoline and others by a specific brand name such as Gulf No Nox
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Dave's Garage & Memorabilia, Inc.

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#364482 - Sun Oct 21 2012 06:50 AM Re: "Contains lead" sign for Tokheim 39 tall. [Re: Dave's Garage]
Steven C. Online   content
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Jun 01 2012
Loc: MICHIGAN
I understand that Ethyl was sold as an additive to many brands and from what I've read was developed by GM and an independent in Dayton called Refinery Oil Company. They later teamed with STandard to market it. It was Bob's picture of the Ethyl globed pump that had me thinking that maybe it was also sold under it's own name. I'm still not completely clear on this. I had read that this selling of Ethyl to other companies is what actually spawned the Sinclair H-C brand for example, because in the beginning Sinclair could not reach a deal with GM to use Ethyl. So he came up with his own higher octane premium grade, "H-C", which actually stands for "Houston Concentrate", because it was developed at his Houston refinery, but to the general public was marketed as High Compression. I had read all the wiki stuff and some others before posting but I could not clarify the time periods of the two different signs.
As some may know or remember, as a little project, I'm building up a side panel of a 39 tall as a display and I thought it would add just a little to it if I added a sign of some kind to the panel. The panel is going to be done in Sunoco branding. I don't know if Sunoco ever even used a 39 tall so I may be historically wrong right from the start. So anyway, I would like to add either one of these lead warning signs or an actual Ethyl sign to it. What do you guys think and would any of this be historically accurate? Now old iron pionted out that the warning signs were actually posted on the doors of the 39's. I'll have to check this out as this may defunk the entire idea of the lead warning sign. So would it be at all correct then to put an Ethyl sign on the side of a 39 tall?
_________________________
Steve Coppens
Always interested in Sunoco items!
Really want a Sunoco National pump ad glass!!

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#364508 - Sun Oct 21 2012 10:46 AM Re: "Contains lead" sign for Tokheim 39 tall. [Re: Steven C.]
Old Iron Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Thu Sep 10 2009
Loc: New Mexico
Hi SC,

I didn't mean to complicate things.I just thought you were doing a pump so I was offering you an option on where you could mount the signs.A tall 39 is a tall pump and in some sign layouts mounting the contains lead signs on the doors can help "fill up the space"IMO.

Please note that I said "many",I didn't say "all".You might want to check the pics right here on oldgas,click pictures and go to the pumps,and you will see them in what appears to be both ways.

In any event,please don't let my comment slow you down.Put it on there if you like it;I would.Remember,those pumps were used well into the 50's ,at least,and some went through several re-brandings where the image was changed.I think it is safe to say that at times those guys put those signs where they wanted to so long as they were legal LOL.

As to the round ethyl sign,I personally have never seen one on the side of an un-restored pump.Maybe some of the other guys have.Hope this helps.It is your pump and I do respect you interest in the history of those signs.

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#364524 - Sun Oct 21 2012 11:57 AM Re: "Contains lead" sign for Tokheim 39 tall. [Re: Old Iron]
Steven C. Online   content
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Jun 01 2012
Loc: MICHIGAN
Old Iron just to be clear I took absolutely no offense what so ever. I love any and all input and I thank you. It's all info in the vault to me.

It was actually this picture from a post by PUMP RESTORER that got me going on the whole Ethyl thing in the first place. And seeing as I am only doing the side panel, I thought an Ethyl sign would just be one more thing to add to it. But I figured I would at least make an effort to keep it period & historically accurate.


Attachments
39 tall.jpg


_________________________
Steve Coppens
Always interested in Sunoco items!
Really want a Sunoco National pump ad glass!!

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#364527 - Sun Oct 21 2012 12:44 PM Re: "Contains lead" sign for Tokheim 39 tall. [Re: Steven C.]
Bob Richards Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Tue Feb 22 2005
Loc: Longview, WA
Steve, I am "trying to bring up information" too long buried about the circumstances relating to "Ethyl Gasoline".... In the recesses of my mind, a flicker of info about the Ethyl Corp keeps popping in and out.

At one time I had a book about the Ethyl Corp, entitled; "The Ethyl Corporation and the People that made it up"... or it was something like that... I went on Amazon last night and found a used book, entitled "Ethyl: A History of the Corporation and the People Who Made It"

For .44 cents plus $3.00 shipping I figure it is worth taking the chance, that this is the same book I am trying to remember.... LOL

Once I receive the book, hopefully it will shed some info on the question of whether or not "Ethyl" was ever sold as a "stand alone" Gasoline Brand or was it always sold as an "Additive" Product....

Like most, who lived during the late 20s through early 70s.... I remember, going to the gas station and always seeing at least one gas pump that had signage on it that read "Ethyl", "Premium", "High Test" or something along those lines....
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#364666 - Sun Oct 21 2012 08:12 PM Re: "Contains lead" sign for Tokheim 39 tall. [Re: Bob Richards]
JimT Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Dec 06 2002
Loc: Cleveland,Ohio U.S.A.
SC- If it looks good on the side to you,put it there. Heres a thought, Why dont you keep your eyes open for a nice door- That way you could display your ethyl sign and your future"Double Diamond". If you ask me its kind of cool what your doing with just the side. Lots of guys just mount the doors W/ad glass on their walls.


Edited by JimT (Sun Oct 21 2012 08:15 PM)

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#364755 - Mon Oct 22 2012 04:41 AM Re: "Contains lead" sign for Tokheim 39 tall. [Re: JimT]
Steven C. Online   content
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Jun 01 2012
Loc: MICHIGAN
Originally Posted By: JimT
SC- If it looks good on the side to you,put it there. Heres a thought, Why dont you keep your eyes open for a nice door- That way you could display your ethyl sign and your future"Double Diamond". If you ask me its kind of cool what your doing with just the side. Lots of guys just mount the doors W/ad glass on their walls.


It all started because I wanted to polish a brass nozzle. Kevin Frith was kind enough to give me a great deal on one. Then someone asked how I was going to display it. I was originally planning to just hang it on the wall. And that just didn't seem like a proper way to answer the question. And then I came up with this idea. The cool thing about the 39 tall is it has side glass. So then I can have a light in and it allows me to bring in the brand recognition. I'm already having thoughts of doing a Wayne 70 next in Mobil or Texaco.

As for the double diamond Sunoco sign. It's going to take another great depression to bring those down to my price range. I'm so glad I have to one I have at $260.


Edited by SC62 (Mon Oct 22 2012 04:56 AM)
_________________________
Steve Coppens
Always interested in Sunoco items!
Really want a Sunoco National pump ad glass!!

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