Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums General Petroliana Discussion venues to sell fakes including this one

There are many venues to sell fake stuff. Swap meets, shows, auctions, estate sales, private party, web sites and of course ebay. Certainly Oldgas is not immune. I am puzzled that my posts are banished to the cellar, ebay forum, reproduction forum. The views immediately stopped or slowed way down. If discussing this huge problem in the general forum is inappropriate then our hard work and time is for naught. Case in point...the spring show this year in Escalon had a moron show up toting a curved Mohawk sign. He informed us "for visible pumps and several knowledgeable people said it is old." This was the first time I became aware of these bogus curved signs. He was allowed to walk around the show with the piece of **** under his arm for way too long. If it had been up to me I would have asked him to put it in his vehicle or leave. Ebay is the most accessible to the most people and will have to best positive effect to slow this scam down.
One more point my last two posts were moved yet Scott B's post about the fake globe was left to run in the general discussion. Hmmmmmmmm In closing I was invited to join this site. If you are going to muzzle me what is the point?
Diane

Diane
I can't comment on your postings moving about. But many of us lurking about read them faithfully because it's a great cheap learning tool. Saves learning the more painful expensive way.
Fred

Diane , I appreciate these posts and bringing awareness of these problem pieces and because of your post and others ,I am interested in better educating myself on original sign sizes , thank you . Travis

Thank you for your committment and effort to stopping this scourge on our hobby!
I see your posts and think, good here is another one that I will avoid and I file it in my brain.
If the thought does occour to me that you have posted in the wrong forum, I quickly !don't care! because you are helping me and 100s of others!!
Thanx again and could you PM me a copy of the bad sellers list?

Diane, Please don't get frustrated. I look forward to every thread I see your involved with. You are very good at what your doing and knowing there are others out there turning in these people makes me push that much harder to remove these sellers no matter where they are.
Please keep up the good work!!

Besides this one I see two more of your posts in this forum. They are on the next page. Are yours being moved or are they getting buried under newer posts? Responses are what keep post near the top. Never the less, keep posting so that we are aware of something that might have gotten by us.

Diane,
Organizing the categories of different subjects helps people find topics about the various interest areas. That is why there are forum categories that are dedicated to eBay topics, known unmarked repros and a photo gallery of unmarked repros. That way collectors can easily find info about those challenging items together.

It is like a virtual filing cabinet. If we put everything in the "A" drawer, it becomes an unorganized mess. If we organize similar topics together, it is more efficient to find and review relevant posts.

We appreciate your passion and efforts. Our moderators hope that you can appreciate the categories that were set up to group unmarked repro and eBay concerns together so they don't get lost in a sea of general comments next week, month or year from now.

You seem to miss my point. It isn't about ebay...that site is just one way to move faked stuff. My point is to reach as many collectors as possible in the shortest amount of time. When my posts are moved off the general discussion category it loses all momentum. The ebay haters don't bother to look at the category you want to pigeon hole my posts in. If your members are not interested in reading my posts they have that choice. I post in the general petroliana category to give them that choice. This is about crooks and faked stuff not about ebay.
Please be part of the solution not part of the problem.

Diane,
If I were considering a sign purchase, the first place I would look is the Known & Suspected Unmarked Petro Reproductions section. I would never think to look in GPD. And, since there are so many venues besides eBay, I don't think I'd look there, either, for repro info.

Your loss.

Wow!

After 17 years, many thousands of hours and considerable personal expense to build and maintain this site, now I'm part of the problem?

Members can post their thoughts and criticisms for free on Oldgas.com as long as they follow the Membership Agreement and Guidelines. Volunteer moderators use their personal time to try to resolve and avoid conflicts, help new users and keep things organized.

When a moderator moves a topic about a fake sign to the "Known Unmarked Repro" forum, that is putting the info where it can be easily found, not just today, but next week and in years to come. Putting similar things together is a common sense way of organization.

We regularly hear from sellers who threaten lawsuits over "slander" because their practices have been criticized by a member on this forum. And yet we allow members to post the criticisms.

Working together on the problems that face us, using the forum organization and rules that have been in place for years is the best way to see progress.

If more members would take the time to post pictures of known fake/fantasy item in the Known & Suspected Unmarked Petro Reproductions Forum it would be a usefull section. Jim set it up over a year ago & to date less than 20 items have been posted.

When using Goolge to search key words, your post [if it contains their key word] will be one of the suggested sites for information no matter what forum it is posted in.

I never said you were the problem. I find it interesting you ignore what I said about Scott B's post on fake globes in the general discussion forum. You didn't bother to move that one.
I will say it again....my posts are about faked items not about ebay. That is just where the fakes are being sold at the moment.

In a Perfect world ALL Fakes & Repops would be Permanently Marked. BUT, even the U.S. Government can't stop Counterfeiters of Currency, Name Brand items, ID Theft, etc.

LETS START with the Vendors that advertise on oldgas that are selling Reproduction/Fantasy Items that are NOT MARKED as Reproduction/Fantasy. Hopefully they will Require all their Suppliers to Permanently Mark Repop/Fantasy Items. The Movement has to start somewhere.

Please click on the "Notify" button within that post by Scott B about fake globes that is in the General Discussion Forum. Fake item posts should be in the "Known & Suspected Unmarked Petro Reproductions" forum category. Point it out with a "Notify" and a moderator will move it. Thanks!

Moderators miss things from time to time. Nobody is perfect. We depend on members to spot posts that need our attention.

Repops are a "fact of life" in the Hobby...

As I and others have pointed out, they have been around since the first "Gas and Oil" advertising sign was produced... The first time a small Independent and/or Country Store Keeper had a sign painted because it was cheaper than buying a "store bought"... Repops/fantasy's were born...

Now with such a new large market, mainly because of TV... "Fakes" will be coming out of the "woodwork"... oops... they all ready are....

It is good that Hobbyists are looking out for one another. As long as items are made over-seas and by folks here in the US that could care less... They will never be stopped!

But, I hope all here, "will keep swinging".. Whether at a Show, Ebay, CL, Oldgas or a next door neighbor... Some of those who are purposely selling fakes, will feel the heat and leave the marketplace... For those who don't know they own a fake, hopefully they will not have paid a "small fortune" for something really worthless...

Here is my contribution, today, to keeping repops from being taken as originals.
The lenses came with the Boyle and Dayton visible I have. A previous owner of the lenses took and painted a black stripe over the inside and outside of both lenses where the manufacture date of 11-24-1988 was printed. I carefully cleaned and scraped off the paint so this was the result for both. Now not hidden or painted over and easily seen when close enough to the globe.

I recognize the attitude of the op, used to happen about once a month around here.

I've often wondered this same thing!!! Nicely said DB.

Do major venders of this stuff put any demands on their suppliers? If not, they need to start!!! I don't want to name anyone in particular because I am new to all of this and may not get it exactly correct. But it seems to me that there are plenty of retailers of fake stuff. Is this stuff identified in any way?

Like the manuf. date on Daves globe lenses. Is this more the norm to see dates on such a piece or the contrary?

This one was in the classic car dealership on 2nd?? in downtown Spokane. It is like mine, a repop that is marked with a date from the late 80s and I commended them on it! They were making no attempt to sell it as a original or to cover up the date.



Having the set of lenses that I do and seeing the above globe and after doing some work to uncover the repop date and seeing the huge repop problem that is kicking all our ***** on here and everywhere in the world of collecting antiques,,,
,has started to make me think there needs to be a different approach or a different way of looking at repops by the leading collectors and dealers like the great folks on here and other sites and in the collecting world in general.
I think that we in this hobby need to start to give a higher value to these clearly marked, older reproduction pieces. I'm Not saying that they should be valued anywhere close to a original but,
IN MY OPINION,
if it is "made" cool and more valuable to to have a piece that is a clearly marked older repop it might provide the right incentives to the manfactures of current repops to corectly date and or label their pieces. Or it might protect the originals by providing just enough incentive for them to start repopping the repops.???
This is just a starting thought on my part and I know there might be a bunch of new probs that crop up that I'm not thinking of and it might become a moot thought, but to me, this thread and the theme of this thread and MANY others are proof that this problem needs to be approached in a different, more positive way in order to promote and preserve this hobby somehow.


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now that I've expressed another opinion on here, DON'T take it as a reason to call me (again or for the 4th time) without caller ID and start screaming at me and cussing me out because something I wrote rubbed you the wrong way.
I have a thick skin and it's actually funny to know my insignificant opinion rattles someones cage that much! I record them so I can post them if I need help identifying the voice, so, if you do it again, don't be surprised when you hear yourself screaming and acting like a fool, all over the WEB!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Keep up the good fight, many many of us are behind your efforts and appreciate what you are doing.
Ray Seider

I fail to understand the need for recognition or validation seeked by the original poster. If you are fighting a crusade that is near and dear to your heart and one that you feel is a worthy cause then why be so confrontational and demanding? Do it because you want to and don't expect anything in return from anyone.

Let the host decide where you posts belong. We are all guests and should act as such.

I fail to see the need for you to be jostling to stay at the top of each forum. I clearly understand and support the logic behind your post being moved.

i know there a few here doing there best to help with this problem and are having some good results and this can be done behind the scenes & with out needing to be reconized or to be validated for doing something good for the hobby.......

just post these reproductions being sold as originals in the proper place (known and suspected reproductions} then everybody knows where to look and then report the problem ...

You clearly do not understand anything. The member replies have kept the posting in the top.
You also don't comprehend the devastating effect the forgery/fake items are having on the hobby in general. Hundreds of thousands of dollars. Not to mention the sour taste the poor new collector has when he finds out he just spent thousands on what he thought were original "rare" pump signs. Or wonderful ice cream collectables. Maybe he got burned on fake license plate toppers.

Your perception of me looking for recognition and validation is laughable. 30 years of buying and selling this stuff is all the validation I need. I sure don't need recognition from you. Whatever little bit I do to slow the crooks down is the only motivation I have.
When I see the number of views this post has had, I say it must be in the right place.

If you don't like what I have to say don't read it.

can you tell which one is fake???????

We all agree that reproductions or a horrible thing to not only our pocket books but to historical archives as well, and I for one am thankful people are fighting the good fight against it, but I thought your original post was to complain about your older posts being moved.

What I think Jack should do is expose this problem and possibly give it it's very own category so people don't have wade through hundreds and hundreds of unrelated posts before they can find posts from members exposing these frauds and thieves.

Oh, wait a minute, he already did that, and yet you complain when your posts of reproduction alerts are moved to the category SPECIFICALLY for that. And then you insult Jack insinuating he's "part of the problem".

We do appreciate your diligence on keeping oldgas members informed and we pretty much all agree that this is a terrible problem, but, well, what Dave said:

I believe the vast majority of the collectors and dealers that peruse Oldgas would agree that they are grateful for your efforts. I personally think you are shooting yourself in the foot by coming across as controlling and whiny and condescending in your rant. I think Mark meant Jim P. in the above post. If you dont like what Jim (or any moderators) do with your posts, just start your own web sight, then you can put them where ever you want. If you hang around this sight long enough you will find that he is more than a fair moderator. And a truly good human being. You are not the only knowledgeable collector on this sight that can spot a repop. Many of our collections are affected by this scourge. Again,I, personally, respect your efforts and the energy you are putting forth but IMO this thread is having a retroactive effect on your crusade.

Agree!

https://www.facebook.com/FakeSignsAndSellerFrauds?ref=hl

Here is a Facebook page that is helpful. They call out anyone they can find and encourage people to do the same.

I've known Diane and Dick Kinsey for more than 20 years and they were dealing in vintage advertising long before I met them. You could not find 2 nicer nor more knowledgeable people in this hobby. Diane is obviously passionate about this and has brought it to the forefront more than any of us have just by shear volume. She I believe, has put a dent in the problem and gotten people to act. I don't think insulting her by calling her whiny, controlling and condescending is productive at all and telling her to start her own website counters your claim to respect what she's doing.

Sorry, I mean Jim instead of Jack.
Thanks for the notification Dick

Working together can accomplish way more than pulling in different directions.

...I definitely agree with the above quote, pulled from Diane's reply - but I also agree that the 'Known & Suspected Unmarked Petro Reproductions' and the 'Unmarked Reproduction and Fantasy Petro Photo Album' are the best places to 'file' the posts pertaining to the counterfeits...

...could the 'Unmarked Reproduction and Fantasy Petro Photo Album' be set up differently? perhaps...maybe if the posts were in alphabetical order, they'd be easier to search...as there aren't that many posts (yet) that isn't a problem at the moment...

...I would also suggest that members (myself included) who take the time to post in another forum about a fake on eBay, etc, should also take the time to post in the 'Unmarked Reproduction and Fantasy Petro Photo Album', and to post with a title such as 'Texaco flange sign' that will be useful when searching...

One thing I have noticed here is that people only list the ebay listing number about a fake sign.

This is useless!

You need to post the photos from the listing. The listings expire after a couple of months and then there is nothing to "see for reference."

Diane, you are a great help to those of us who hate the fake/repo stuff and sellers that go with them. Please don't stop posting. I too find ones and list them or ask questions about them.

I understand Dianes anger over these repros and fakes. especially the crooks that AGE them and sell as originals..But there is literally dozens of them on Ebay every day..If all were posted in the FAKE topic section, it would be overflowing in a short while.. As far as the sellers, most know this stuff is wrong, but could care less. Just make a buck..
We can rant all we want, on this forum, but I would bet 90% of the buyers doesnt know we exsist..I dont have an answer,,,RD

Caveat Emptor

Appreciate your enthusiasm but when novice buyers get burned its an education of sorts... And education is rarely cheap.

There is no putting the genie back in the bottle as far as the proliferation of fake signs.

Jim has his way to deal with it (repro forum) and I think we should honor that.

Posting a couple of pictures in Known & Suspected Reproductions Gallery does little good with out size & what is not obivous to someone that has never had the real item.

Well presented young man !!!!!!!!!!!!

Ed Shaver

Well said Watchdog7

OK, let's see a brave person to show us a good format to represent an ORIGINAL sign vs that of the COPY.

IMO, it should be presented next to each other + 1024 x 1024 as minimum resolution.

We can start with the famous SOCONY AIRCRAFT.

Thanks!

"Hen"

OK, I'll Bite.
Just posted this in Known & Suspect Gallery.
[All pictures there are click-able for a larger image]

good job

Now, we are talking!

Awesome work, db!

THANK YOU!

Also, many THANKS to Diane for starting this thread!

this isn't a fake but this puny picture is the only size I can seem to post.
Dick yours looks very professional a big thumbs up for that.

Thanks.
I use Photo Shop & have learned how to Tweek images, either by Resolution &/or Image size. Also by Saving As either a Large or Small File [size].

[Diane has seen/used my Decals]

Excellent D.B. Thanks!!

db,

I noticed, you added the SHELL to the section (Unmarked Reproduction and Fantasy Petro Photo Album).

I must admit you have spoiled us with your creative format to highlight the differences. I understand it requires knowledge about differences + photoshop work to add arrows.

Is it fair for us to send you a request per sign?

I would like to start with the "SOCONY AIRCRAFT". I learned the differences from you.

Please let us know how you wish to proceed.

Thanks,

"Hen"

Although it is nice to see the differences,It is a fact the problem sellers and makers of these reproductions do visit this site often. You can bet they will take this info and better their fake junk. By doing this now we are no doudt contributing to even more future problems as reproductions are perfected.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That's what I was thinking !

OK, point well taken.

But …

IMO:

1-some of the older signs have non-computer generated FONTS, hence, it makes it
tough to match the art work to that of the ORIGINAL fonts. I know this from a great artist I know.

2- Color matching is a nightmare. This is from the experience when I had the sign business.

3- The quality of PORCELAIN sign copies (thickness + workmanship) are dead give-away.

Sing experts, please comment/correct/add to the bullets above.

Thanks,

"Hen"

You have a valid point. The fox is already in the henhouse. However the crooks can and do find plenty of places to upgrade the quality of whatever they make. They make so much money on this stuff they just buy originals.
I guess we have to look at the positive side. It is a great teaching tool. I no longer have access to real pump signs and over time forget the details I can use to point out the difference between the real and fake.
I believe that we have a responsibility to teach when and where we can. Books are great but the fake signs have made their way into most publications.
Dick Bennett is a wizard at this photo and posting stuff. He is a wonderful asset to this website. Maybe he would agree to post photos of pieces he does not have access to, for the members. I believe whatever we can do will only have a positive affect on the hobby.

Diane, After reading Neils post this morning, and giving it quite a bit of thought throughout the day, I have to agree that I had no business addressing you in that manner. Since I spoke that way to you on a public forum, I am going to try to apologize to you in public. I do appreciate the effort and energy you are putting forth. I'm sorry I got snappy with you.

Apology accepted thank you. I also apologize if I have stepped on any toes, I just try to do the best I can. If I fall short I will get up, dust myself off and try again. I am on your side and my motives are righteous.
Go Giants!

Diane,
Your doing a great job- keep it up!
Go A's..

Are the folks that are repopping the Capcos, from the original molds, marking them with a date or ??? I have not found a "new" marking on the one that I got from Vics 66, yet, but now it's on top of the visible until a few days from now when I take it over to the Tyler grange for Tyler Daze on Sat.
I was told that Gas Pump Heaven's are marked with their name on them.
So, are there different manufactures that have copies of the original Capco molds and if they are not marking them, how do we figure out if a capco globe came from the 50s, 80s, or now???

New Capcos are real flexible like they are made by Rubber Maid, originals don't flex near as much. I am sure the globe guys can tell you other things to look for on them also.

Just curious ...

Doesn't this "CAPCO" question belong to a NEW thread?

Why? Very few Topics ever stay on subject!
asking the differences of original vs reproduction.

OK. You are the Boss!

I will rest my case!

My understanding is that Time Passages bought the original Capco molds years ago thus, I suppose, the Capco name on them. Because of materials used, they are very flexible. I just purchased a quantity from them and inserted both original (used) and NOS lenses in them and everything lines up and fits very well.
After thinking about the issue for a while, I personally have no problem with the new bodies as there is a cosmetic problem of some sort with every original body that I have.

Someone has mentioned the existence of "fake" Capcos-out of new molds, and problems of fitment. Someone else will have to address that.

Originals & New Ones made from Original molds have 4 tabs [2 on ea half] for notches in lenses. Repops made from New Molds only have 2 notches, 1 on each half & are NOT Marked CAPCO.
Old Originals are more Ridged where Newer ones are more Flexible.