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#419013 - Thu May 30 2013 04:36 AM Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: r49th]
Steven C. Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Jun 01 2012
Loc: MICHIGAN
Originally Posted By: r49th
I understand what you are saying that the seller is selling all fakes so that one is a fake.
But, what if, a regular on here was selling that same sign? Now what makes it a fake? Based on the two pictures shown there is no tell tale sign that one is different from the other, except a slight color variation in the two photographs.


Rod,
I totally feel your pain in this one. Yours is the exact same question I was asking when DB felt the need to slap me upside the head. And I still feel it is a totally legitimate question. And i think what the more EXPERIENCED guys are trying to tell us is, they dont know either. So the only thing you/we/they can go buy is the sellers historical pattern of selling fakes. This history takes this sign out of the game. It doesn't matter if it's real or not. It is off limits. Unfortunately that does not answer our question and when it's new owner decides to sell it, and his history doesn't include any fakes, well then I guess it will be back in the game again.

Now, let me bring this to the table.
On the sign in question, in the upper outer corners near the "C" & the "O", there is evidence of a porcelain build up along the outer edge. Randy's sign appears to be completely smooth.
Does this tell us anything or is this common even within original pieces??
_________________________
Steve Coppens
Always interested in Sunoco items!
Really want a Sunoco National pump add glass!!

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#419015 - Thu May 30 2013 06:15 AM Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: ddkinsey]
Jerry Westfield Offline
Active Member

Registered: Sun Mar 17 2013
Loc: Orlando Florida
Originally Posted By: ddkinsey
Originally Posted By: Dick Bennett
Could be camera, computer colors are never dead on.


Yes that is exactly right, but when everything else is fake.......I'm just sayin

This is another of the... don't buy anything from them when they sell fakes.


DDKINSEY, I think it is great that you have taken such a stand on the unmarked reproductions, but with such high standards for all other to follow I have one questions. A few weeks ago you had a listing on eBay #171040417266 for a DM Ferry Co. Seed Sign Poster. I understand this item was not gas or oil related, but it was considered to be collectable advertising (based on the category you placed your listing in). My questions is this, since the item you listed was described to be an unmarked reproduction and you were trying to sale it, are you not breaking all of the standards you have set for others (buyers and sellers alike) to follow?

I am with you on trying to get control of the reproduction items, but in your efforts to lead the fight, you should follow the code you write of almost everyday.

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#419033 - Thu May 30 2013 08:17 AM Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: Jerry Westfield]
really Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Mon May 13 2013
Loc: Texas
Amen Jerry.

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#419036 - Thu May 30 2013 08:28 AM Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: really]
Wes Maxwell Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Oct 15 2004
Loc: Central Ohio
another one for sale, marked NOS...

D.M. FERRY & CO. SEEDS SIGN POSTERS NOS IN ORIGINAL SHIPPING TUBE


http://www.ebay.com/itm/D-M-FERRY-CO-SEE...5#ht_235wt_1170

I for one always thought NOS implies an old original item, not an old repo item...?
_________________________
US Air Force Retired, 1981-2007

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#419049 - Thu May 30 2013 09:24 AM Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: Wes Maxwell]
really Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Mon May 13 2013
Loc: Texas
Maybe some people think anything that is not made this year is "old"...hence "new old stock". Who
is to say the next person isn't going to try to sell this as REALLY old....


Edited by really (Thu May 30 2013 09:25 AM)

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#419051 - Thu May 30 2013 09:38 AM Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: really]
Jerry Westfield Offline
Active Member

Registered: Sun Mar 17 2013
Loc: Orlando Florida
You have to stand on one side of the fence or the other if you want people to follow you.

Wes, thanks for pointing out the item has been re-listed. I was looking at the old auction. No changes, in item description or category it the new listing.

I do not think it is correct to use the term "NOS" on a known unmarked reproduction item, even it if comes with the original shipping tube. This is just a play on words, and leaves the buyer within a grey area.

No matter how the items is being sold today, it could fall into the hands of the next buyer who will pass it off as the real deal. I know we can't say this is how it will play out on this item, but we have seen many other items follow this path.

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#419137 - Thu May 30 2013 07:21 PM Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: Jerry Westfield]
Neil Gerrard Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Tue Dec 09 2003
Loc: Canby, Oregon
I looked at both auctions and agree NOS is not the best term, maybe NORS. I don't know how you can compare that auction with the outright thieves selling on ebay that Diane has spoken about. It says clearly that these are probably 1970's. How is she breaking the "standards she has set", are you suggesting she destroy the items, stamp repo on them? It's apples and oranges IMO. Like it or not the 70's items are collectible to some, makes me feel old, it's also in the collectibles category, have you looked at the garbage in that category. What category do you suggest? I guess to some Hot Wheels and Beanie Babies are "collectible". I just don't see the smoking gun here nor double standard you guys are suggesting.

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#419176 - Thu May 30 2013 09:41 PM Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: Neil Gerrard]
really Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Mon May 13 2013
Loc: Texas
It's an "unmarked reproduction"...period........same term that always is used here in a derogatory context.

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#419186 - Thu May 30 2013 10:24 PM Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: Wes Maxwell]
ddkinsey Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Wed Oct 03 2007
Loc: ca
Originally Posted By: Wes Maxwell
another one for sale, marked NOS...

D.M. FERRY & CO. SEEDS SIGN POSTERS NOS IN ORIGINAL SHIPPING TUBE


http://www.ebay.com/itm/D-M-FERRY-CO-SEE...5#ht_235wt_1170

I for one always thought NOS implies an old original item, not an old repo item...?


NOS means new old stock period.

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#419189 - Thu May 30 2013 10:35 PM Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: ddkinsey]
really Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Mon May 13 2013
Loc: Texas
So, using that logic....all those unmarked reproduction pump plates form the 1970's could be sold as NOS, as long as they have never been on a pump? Because, tell me what the difference between a 1970's unmarked reproduction being sold as NOS and a 1970's unmarked poster, being sold as NOS?

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#419191 - Thu May 30 2013 10:41 PM Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: Jerry Westfield]
ddkinsey Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Wed Oct 03 2007
Loc: ca
Originally Posted By: Jerry Westfield
You have to stand on one side of the fence or the other if you want people to follow you.

Wes, thanks for pointing out the item has been re-listed. I was looking at the old auction. No changes, in item description or category it the new listing.

I do not think it is correct to use the term "NOS" on a known unmarked reproduction item, even it if comes with the original shipping tube. This is just a play on words, and leaves the buyer within a grey area.

No matter how the items is being sold today, it could fall into the hands of the next buyer who will pass it off as the real deal. I know we can't say this is how it will play out on this item, but we have seen many other items follow this path.


The posters are NOS I have not tried to misrepresent them in any way. I have not artificially aged them, omitted anything in the description in other words I am not trying to rip anybody off. Maybe decorative would have been a better choice of a word but that did not come to mind when I wrote the description.

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#419193 - Thu May 30 2013 10:53 PM Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: Neil Gerrard]
ddkinsey Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Wed Oct 03 2007
Loc: ca
Originally Posted By: Neil Gerrard
I looked at both auctions and agree NOS is not the best term, maybe NORS. I don't know how you can compare that auction with the outright thieves selling on ebay that Diane has spoken about. It says clearly that these are probably 1970's. How is she breaking the "standards she has set", are you suggesting she destroy the items, stamp repo on them? It's apples and oranges IMO. Like it or not the 70's items are collectible to some, makes me feel old, it's also in the collectibles category, have you looked at the garbage in that category. What category do you suggest? I guess to some Hot Wheels and Beanie Babies are "collectible". I just don't see the smoking gun here nor double standard you guys are suggesting.


It is apples and oranges. There is a whole collecting world out there that buy this stuff. Decorators included. Most people won't or can't spend what it would take to buy an original. It's the same thing in signs. I have always said there is a market for reproductions and I don't have a problem with them as long as it is honest. Unfortunately there are a lot of sellers on ebay that are not honest. My business is Antiques and collectables sometimes that means some stuff I sell is newer than a hundred years old. I probably should have put decorator piece when I wrote the description. I simply didn't think of it.

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#419196 - Thu May 30 2013 11:03 PM Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: really]
ddkinsey Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Wed Oct 03 2007
Loc: ca
Originally Posted By: really
So, using that logic....all those unmarked reproduction pump plates form the 1970's could be sold as NOS, as long as they have never been on a pump? Because, tell me what the difference between a 1970's unmarked reproduction being sold as NOS and a 1970's unmarked poster, being sold as NOS?


Correct IMO There is no difference. The difference comes in the value not the NOS. If my posters were original they would be worth hundreds, maybe more if you could even find one. Really the only value they have is decorative.

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#419197 - Thu May 30 2013 11:10 PM Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: Steven C.]
ddkinsey Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Wed Oct 03 2007
Loc: ca
Originally Posted By: SC62
Originally Posted By: r49th
I understand what you are saying that the seller is selling all fakes so that one is a fake.
But, what if, a regular on here was selling that same sign? Now what makes it a fake? Based on the two pictures shown there is no tell tale sign that one is different from the other, except a slight color variation in the two photographs.


Rod,
I totally feel your pain in this one. Yours is the exact same question I was asking when DB felt the need to slap me upside the head. And I still feel it is a totally legitimate question. And i think what the more EXPERIENCED guys are trying to tell us is, they dont know either. So the only thing you/we/they can go buy is the sellers historical pattern of selling fakes. This history takes this sign out of the game. It doesn't matter if it's real or not. It is off limits. Unfortunately that does not answer our question and when it's new owner decides to sell it, and his history doesn't include any fakes, well then I guess it will be back in the game again.

Now, let me bring this to the table.
On the sign in question, in the upper outer corners near the "C" & the "O", there is evidence of a porcelain build up along the outer edge. Randy's sign appears to be completely smooth.
Does this tell us anything or is this common even within original pieces??


Well now I also wondered if that might be a clue. But then again it looks like that is something that could happen to a sign. I don't know if I had it in my hand if I could tell the age. I have to go by what else this one sells.


Edited by ddkinsey (Thu May 30 2013 11:10 PM)

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#419198 - Thu May 30 2013 11:24 PM Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: ddkinsey]
Dick Bennett Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Oct 25 2000
Loc: Santa Paula, Calif
W/O a Date there is NO WAY of telling when a Repop was made ['70's, '80's, '90's, 2010's]. IMO they should be listed as REPRODUCTION Signage.

Most ALL Reproduction Globes are Marked & hasn't hurt the Originals.
What would Dating Repop Signs Hurt? It would take $$ out of the CROOKS Pockets & Create MORE Honest Sellers on ebay [Argentina/India/Virginia].
_________________________
Reproduction/Fantasy Cans
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p2/oldegaspump/AllCansMASTERTHUMBNAIL_zps4bfdbbc7.jpg
Rnd Can Re-lids


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