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Fake royal pump sign #418735
Tue May 28 2013 03:48 PM
Tue May 28 2013 03:48 PM
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ddkinsey Offline OP
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This sellers stuff is all fantasy, new or repop. So I think this Green Royal is also fake.#111081969082 I don't have a real one to compare but the color looks off to me.
I also think both the red and green have been reproduced.

Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: ddkinsey] #418748
Tue May 28 2013 04:43 PM
Tue May 28 2013 04:43 PM
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Dick Bennett Offline
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Could be camera, computer colors are never dead on.

Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: Dick Bennett] #418756
Tue May 28 2013 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted By: Dick Bennett
Could be camera, computer colors are never dead on.


Yes that is exactly right, but when everything else is fake.......I'm just sayin

This is another of the... don't buy anything from them when they sell fakes.

Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: ddkinsey] #418766
Tue May 28 2013 05:50 PM
Tue May 28 2013 05:50 PM
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shot of the "Real McCoy".. cool
green Conoco & Diesel, both backs are black
the two red ones Super & Royal, the backs are white

IMG_0691[1].JPG

RANDY
Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: advertologist] #418768
Tue May 28 2013 05:52 PM
Tue May 28 2013 05:52 PM
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the one of subject:.. cool

congrn.jpg

RANDY
Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: advertologist] #418769
Tue May 28 2013 05:52 PM
Tue May 28 2013 05:52 PM
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Based on Randy's pic and the black back, I would sure like to think the ebay one is real. What is there to say it's not. Am I missing something?


Steve Coppens
Always interested in Sunoco items!
Really want a Sunoco National pump ad glass!!
Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: ddkinsey] #418786
Tue May 28 2013 06:50 PM
Tue May 28 2013 06:50 PM
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Placerville,CA
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Originally Posted By: ddkinsey
This sellers stuff is all fantasy, new or repop. So I think this Green Royal is also fake.#111081969082 I don't have a real one to compare but the color looks off to me.
I also think both the red and green have been reproduced.


Everything looks ok to me on the ebay listing IMO. The reproductions I have seen all have white backs. Not a very expensive sign to try and fake. I would agree with you if a seller sells other fakes/reproductions I personally would stay clear.


Wanted anything Flying A Gas, Signal Gas, Hancock oil co, and Sunland.

Thanks Anthony
Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: Steven C.] #418799
Tue May 28 2013 07:16 PM
Tue May 28 2013 07:16 PM
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Dick Bennett Offline
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Originally Posted By: SC62
Based on Randy's pic and the black back, I would sure like to think the ebay one is real. What is there to say it's not. Am I missing something?

Think what you will, BUT as others have said WALK AWAY from any seller that sells Fakes/UN-marked REPOP's.
THEY Don't care WHO THEY BURN.

Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: Dick Bennett] #418816
Tue May 28 2013 08:05 PM
Tue May 28 2013 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted By: Dick Bennett
Originally Posted By: SC62
Based on Randy's pic and the black back, I would sure like to think the ebay one is real. What is there to say it's not. Am I missing something?

Think what you will, BUT as others have said WALK AWAY from any seller that sells Fakes/UN-marked REPOP's.
THEY Don't care WHO THEY BURN.


AMEN

Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: ddkinsey] #418828
Tue May 28 2013 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted By: sc61.5
Am I missing something?

YES, EXPERIENCE

Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: Dick Bennett] #418855
Wed May 29 2013 04:32 AM
Wed May 29 2013 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted By: Dick Bennett
Originally Posted By: sc61.5
Am I missing something?

YES, EXPERIENCE


LMAO!!
Whatever you say DB! Your the man!!
Experience I will gain. As for your issues, well.....
The only reason I posted in this thread at all is because I have interest in collecting these signs. I have a red CONOCO already and would like to get the others. So I was trying to gain some EXPERIENCE in them by moving the conversation forward.

So DB, is your great experience saying the sign is fake or not??

P.S. I would not buy from anyone who knowingly sells fakes as originals!! Just in case that is what you were calling me out on.


Steve Coppens
Always interested in Sunoco items!
Really want a Sunoco National pump ad glass!!
Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: Steven C.] #418861
Wed May 29 2013 05:29 AM
Wed May 29 2013 05:29 AM
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There are two signs shown. Other than a slight color variation (which could be attributed to the photography) what is evidence to indicate one is a reproduction?


ROD [Mich.]
Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: r49th] #418965
Wed May 29 2013 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted By: r49th
There are two signs shown. Other than a slight color variation (which could be attributed to the photography) what is evidence to indicate one is a reproduction?


The other listings this seller has are all fake. Not just this time. Every time this seller lists, it is all fake. This one is on the faker list.
I wouldn't take a chance with my money. The real ones are not hard to find. Make sure you buy from a trustworthy seller. Don't buy from sellers with private feedback, sells known fakes ect.

Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: ddkinsey] #418985
Wed May 29 2013 07:03 PM
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here is another questionable sign.. cool

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PORCELAIN-ENAMEL...GN-171049366136

sold while I was looking at it..

Last edited by advertologist; Wed May 29 2013 07:04 PM.

RANDY
Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: advertologist] #419009
Wed May 29 2013 09:31 PM
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I understand what you are saying that the seller is selling all fakes so that one is a fake.
But, what if, a regular on here was selling that same sign? Now what makes it a fake? Based on the two pictures shown there is no tell tale sign that one is different from the other, except a slight color variation in the two photographs.


ROD [Mich.]
Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: r49th] #419013
Thu May 30 2013 02:36 AM
Thu May 30 2013 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted By: r49th
I understand what you are saying that the seller is selling all fakes so that one is a fake.
But, what if, a regular on here was selling that same sign? Now what makes it a fake? Based on the two pictures shown there is no tell tale sign that one is different from the other, except a slight color variation in the two photographs.


Rod,
I totally feel your pain in this one. Yours is the exact same question I was asking when DB felt the need to slap me upside the head. And I still feel it is a totally legitimate question. And i think what the more EXPERIENCED guys are trying to tell us is, they dont know either. So the only thing you/we/they can go buy is the sellers historical pattern of selling fakes. This history takes this sign out of the game. It doesn't matter if it's real or not. It is off limits. Unfortunately that does not answer our question and when it's new owner decides to sell it, and his history doesn't include any fakes, well then I guess it will be back in the game again.

Now, let me bring this to the table.
On the sign in question, in the upper outer corners near the "C" & the "O", there is evidence of a porcelain build up along the outer edge. Randy's sign appears to be completely smooth.
Does this tell us anything or is this common even within original pieces??


Steve Coppens
Always interested in Sunoco items!
Really want a Sunoco National pump ad glass!!
Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: ddkinsey] #419015
Thu May 30 2013 04:15 AM
Thu May 30 2013 04:15 AM
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Originally Posted By: ddkinsey
Originally Posted By: Dick Bennett
Could be camera, computer colors are never dead on.


Yes that is exactly right, but when everything else is fake.......I'm just sayin

This is another of the... don't buy anything from them when they sell fakes.


DDKINSEY, I think it is great that you have taken such a stand on the unmarked reproductions, but with such high standards for all other to follow I have one questions. A few weeks ago you had a listing on eBay #171040417266 for a DM Ferry Co. Seed Sign Poster. I understand this item was not gas or oil related, but it was considered to be collectable advertising (based on the category you placed your listing in). My questions is this, since the item you listed was described to be an unmarked reproduction and you were trying to sale it, are you not breaking all of the standards you have set for others (buyers and sellers alike) to follow?

I am with you on trying to get control of the reproduction items, but in your efforts to lead the fight, you should follow the code you write of almost everyday.

Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: Jerry Westfield] #419033
Thu May 30 2013 06:17 AM
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Amen Jerry.

Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: really] #419036
Thu May 30 2013 06:28 AM
Thu May 30 2013 06:28 AM
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another one for sale, marked NOS...

D.M. FERRY & CO. SEEDS SIGN POSTERS NOS IN ORIGINAL SHIPPING TUBE


http://www.ebay.com/itm/D-M-FERRY-CO-SEE...5#ht_235wt_1170

I for one always thought NOS implies an old original item, not an old repo item...?


US Air Force Retired, 1981-2007
Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: Wes Maxwell] #419049
Thu May 30 2013 07:24 AM
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Maybe some people think anything that is not made this year is "old"...hence "new old stock". Who
is to say the next person isn't going to try to sell this as REALLY old....

Last edited by really; Thu May 30 2013 07:25 AM.
Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: really] #419051
Thu May 30 2013 07:38 AM
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You have to stand on one side of the fence or the other if you want people to follow you.

Wes, thanks for pointing out the item has been re-listed. I was looking at the old auction. No changes, in item description or category it the new listing.

I do not think it is correct to use the term "NOS" on a known unmarked reproduction item, even it if comes with the original shipping tube. This is just a play on words, and leaves the buyer within a grey area.

No matter how the items is being sold today, it could fall into the hands of the next buyer who will pass it off as the real deal. I know we can't say this is how it will play out on this item, but we have seen many other items follow this path.

Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: Jerry Westfield] #419137
Thu May 30 2013 05:21 PM
Thu May 30 2013 05:21 PM
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I looked at both auctions and agree NOS is not the best term, maybe NORS. I don't know how you can compare that auction with the outright thieves selling on ebay that Diane has spoken about. It says clearly that these are probably 1970's. How is she breaking the "standards she has set", are you suggesting she destroy the items, stamp repo on them? It's apples and oranges IMO. Like it or not the 70's items are collectible to some, makes me feel old, it's also in the collectibles category, have you looked at the garbage in that category. What category do you suggest? I guess to some Hot Wheels and Beanie Babies are "collectible". I just don't see the smoking gun here nor double standard you guys are suggesting.

Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: Neil Gerrard] #419176
Thu May 30 2013 07:41 PM
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It's an "unmarked reproduction"...period........same term that always is used here in a derogatory context.

Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: Wes Maxwell] #419186
Thu May 30 2013 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted By: Wes Maxwell
another one for sale, marked NOS...

D.M. FERRY & CO. SEEDS SIGN POSTERS NOS IN ORIGINAL SHIPPING TUBE


http://www.ebay.com/itm/D-M-FERRY-CO-SEE...5#ht_235wt_1170

I for one always thought NOS implies an old original item, not an old repo item...?


NOS means new old stock period.

Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: ddkinsey] #419189
Thu May 30 2013 08:35 PM
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So, using that logic....all those unmarked reproduction pump plates form the 1970's could be sold as NOS, as long as they have never been on a pump? Because, tell me what the difference between a 1970's unmarked reproduction being sold as NOS and a 1970's unmarked poster, being sold as NOS?

Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: Jerry Westfield] #419191
Thu May 30 2013 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted By: Jerry Westfield
You have to stand on one side of the fence or the other if you want people to follow you.

Wes, thanks for pointing out the item has been re-listed. I was looking at the old auction. No changes, in item description or category it the new listing.

I do not think it is correct to use the term "NOS" on a known unmarked reproduction item, even it if comes with the original shipping tube. This is just a play on words, and leaves the buyer within a grey area.

No matter how the items is being sold today, it could fall into the hands of the next buyer who will pass it off as the real deal. I know we can't say this is how it will play out on this item, but we have seen many other items follow this path.


The posters are NOS I have not tried to misrepresent them in any way. I have not artificially aged them, omitted anything in the description in other words I am not trying to rip anybody off. Maybe decorative would have been a better choice of a word but that did not come to mind when I wrote the description.

Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: Neil Gerrard] #419193
Thu May 30 2013 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted By: Neil Gerrard
I looked at both auctions and agree NOS is not the best term, maybe NORS. I don't know how you can compare that auction with the outright thieves selling on ebay that Diane has spoken about. It says clearly that these are probably 1970's. How is she breaking the "standards she has set", are you suggesting she destroy the items, stamp repo on them? It's apples and oranges IMO. Like it or not the 70's items are collectible to some, makes me feel old, it's also in the collectibles category, have you looked at the garbage in that category. What category do you suggest? I guess to some Hot Wheels and Beanie Babies are "collectible". I just don't see the smoking gun here nor double standard you guys are suggesting.


It is apples and oranges. There is a whole collecting world out there that buy this stuff. Decorators included. Most people won't or can't spend what it would take to buy an original. It's the same thing in signs. I have always said there is a market for reproductions and I don't have a problem with them as long as it is honest. Unfortunately there are a lot of sellers on ebay that are not honest. My business is Antiques and collectables sometimes that means some stuff I sell is newer than a hundred years old. I probably should have put decorator piece when I wrote the description. I simply didn't think of it.

Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: really] #419196
Thu May 30 2013 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: really
So, using that logic....all those unmarked reproduction pump plates form the 1970's could be sold as NOS, as long as they have never been on a pump? Because, tell me what the difference between a 1970's unmarked reproduction being sold as NOS and a 1970's unmarked poster, being sold as NOS?


Correct IMO There is no difference. The difference comes in the value not the NOS. If my posters were original they would be worth hundreds, maybe more if you could even find one. Really the only value they have is decorative.

Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: Steven C.] #419197
Thu May 30 2013 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted By: SC62
Originally Posted By: r49th
I understand what you are saying that the seller is selling all fakes so that one is a fake.
But, what if, a regular on here was selling that same sign? Now what makes it a fake? Based on the two pictures shown there is no tell tale sign that one is different from the other, except a slight color variation in the two photographs.


Rod,
I totally feel your pain in this one. Yours is the exact same question I was asking when DB felt the need to slap me upside the head. And I still feel it is a totally legitimate question. And i think what the more EXPERIENCED guys are trying to tell us is, they dont know either. So the only thing you/we/they can go buy is the sellers historical pattern of selling fakes. This history takes this sign out of the game. It doesn't matter if it's real or not. It is off limits. Unfortunately that does not answer our question and when it's new owner decides to sell it, and his history doesn't include any fakes, well then I guess it will be back in the game again.

Now, let me bring this to the table.
On the sign in question, in the upper outer corners near the "C" & the "O", there is evidence of a porcelain build up along the outer edge. Randy's sign appears to be completely smooth.
Does this tell us anything or is this common even within original pieces??


Well now I also wondered if that might be a clue. But then again it looks like that is something that could happen to a sign. I don't know if I had it in my hand if I could tell the age. I have to go by what else this one sells.

Last edited by ddkinsey; Thu May 30 2013 09:10 PM.
Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: ddkinsey] #419198
Thu May 30 2013 09:24 PM
Thu May 30 2013 09:24 PM
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W/O a Date there is NO WAY of telling when a Repop was made ['70's, '80's, '90's, 2010's]. IMO they should be listed as REPRODUCTION Signage.

Most ALL Reproduction Globes are Marked & hasn't hurt the Originals.
What would Dating Repop Signs Hurt? It would take $$ out of the CROOKS Pockets & Create MORE Honest Sellers on ebay [Argentina/India/Virginia].

Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: advertologist] #419204
Thu May 30 2013 10:19 PM
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Pickwick looks phony. .

Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: really] #419207
Thu May 30 2013 11:33 PM
Thu May 30 2013 11:33 PM
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Of course it's an unmarked repo, what's your point?? Unmarked repo's are the scourge of the hobby but they exist, if you want to buy them all and destroy them more power to you, start buying all the repo gas pump parts including panels, bezels, decals, site glasses, etc etc. Point is they exist and there's nothing you can do about it except educate yourself and other folks that care. Griping about a seller who honestly describes something as a 70's repo is baffling.
Originally Posted By: really
It's an "unmarked reproduction"...period........same term that always is used here in a derogatory context.

Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: Neil Gerrard] #419219
Fri May 31 2013 04:19 AM
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Neil, I agree with you, the repo items are the scourge of the hobby. Part of my collection includes some late 1800's and very early 1900's paper farm related advertising. Much like the Andy Rooney signs we here about on here all the time, a company called Fire Art America copies the original late 1900's paper advertising. Much like Andy Rooney Signs, they make it way to easy to pass this junk off as something of value in the secondary markets. This process has some down side to the value of our original collection. Those of us that collect this paper advertising talk about it from time to time, but we still think that people willing to enter our category of collecting can tell the a real item from a copied item. We also accept that some people are not able to pay hundreds of dollars or even thousands of dollars for the real deal, so they turn to collecting copies that they can afford. Again, most of us accept this.

My original post was made because some people have taken the position of "Do as I say, not as I do". The original auction I called out "eBay #171040417266" is a great example of this.

The seller of this auction is walking on both sides of the fence. On one hand, she is not happy that anyone would do anything to devalue here collection, but on the other side of the fence she will sale unmarked reproduction items that are not within her near and dear collection. Sounds like she should run an elected office. That way she can talk out of both sides of her mouth, and it will be accepted.

Last edited by Jerry Westfield; Fri May 31 2013 04:21 AM.
Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: ddkinsey] #419221
Fri May 31 2013 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted By: ddkinsey




This is another of the... don't buy anything from them when they sell fakes.


I believe this is your quote that people are calling you out on.


"Remember, history that is forgotten is doomed to repeat itself!"
Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: Dick Bennett] #419222
Fri May 31 2013 04:54 AM
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WOW, someone got on here crying about reproductions and they are selling reproductions themselves! Sounds hypocritical to me!
Just sayin...

Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: tomzcollectiblez] #419238
Fri May 31 2013 07:34 AM
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ca
Boy you all really miss the point. I have always said there is a market for repos. It is the dishonesty that is the problem. Artificially ageing, lying, misrepresentation. My business is Antiques and collectables whatever that collectable be. Having a porcelain sign made that never existed and calling it rare and old is a different kettle of fish. Reproduction items are here to stay. They have a place in the market. You all know my listing is from the 70's and a reproduction so obviously I did not misrepresent it. I have a feeling some on this thread just want to pick a fight.

Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: ddkinsey] #419251
Fri May 31 2013 09:01 AM
Fri May 31 2013 09:01 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 731
Wetumpka,Al.
W
wocopep Offline
Petro Enthusiast
wocopep  Offline
Petro Enthusiast
W
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 731
Wetumpka,Al.
NOS should never be used in association with a reproduction item. I am not tryind to "pick a fight". NOS refers to an item that was produced during original mass manufacturing of the original item, and was never used in the final assembly or in the work place. Aftermarket or reproduction is a copy of the original. Even if that item is 40 years old, it is still a copy of something that was originally made much earlier. A fender for a 40 Ford coupe made in 1940 and never used is an NOS fender. A fender for the same 40 Ford made in 1970 is an aftermerket fender. Just because the fender is now much older does not make it NEW OLD STOCK. I have thirty years in the advertising collecting hobby and I am certainly no expert nor do I claim to be. But I have picked up alot of knowledge, experience, and terminology. I bought the books and still study them today. I have gone to the shows and have educated myself on the subject, to the best of my ability. I still remember the days of Collectors Auction. Those catalogues are an invaluable tool for me when a problem piece arises along with the other books out there. When NOS is used in those books and at the shows around collectors,I know what that means. To start using NOS in association with aftermarket and reproduction items will only muddy the water of an already cloudy arena.

Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: wocopep] #419259
Fri May 31 2013 10:26 AM
Fri May 31 2013 10:26 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 42
Orlando Florida
J
Jerry Westfield Offline
Active Member
Jerry Westfield  Offline
Active Member
J
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 42
Orlando Florida
One more great quote I have read went something like this:

"Be part of the solution, not part of the problem"

WOW, where did I read that one?

Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: wocopep] #419263
Fri May 31 2013 11:38 AM
Fri May 31 2013 11:38 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 316
ca
ddkinsey Offline OP
Petro Enthusiast
ddkinsey  Offline OP
Petro Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 316
ca
I guess I should have said decorative aftermarket reproduction. We will have to agree to disagree on the NOS. How about we debate the word VINTAGE, used and abused on ebay?

I think all this nit picking on my listing is counterproductive to the bigger picture. I am not trying to rip anyone off is the bottom line.

I heard through the grapevine that there are members of oldgas that are some of the problem sellers on ebay, creeping around stirring up trouble.

Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: ddkinsey] #419271
Fri May 31 2013 12:24 PM
Fri May 31 2013 12:24 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 42
Orlando Florida
J
Jerry Westfield Offline
Active Member
Jerry Westfield  Offline
Active Member
J
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 42
Orlando Florida
I did not hear it from the grapevine, I spotted it on eBay in one of your listing where you were listing an unmarked reproduction item and describing it as NOS. You are almost as hard headed as the repop seller Lacy that came on here and tried to tell the world how his stuff was great. Take this to the grapevine, you are part of the problem in my book. You have promoted yourself to be this great leader in the fight against fakes, reproductions, and other misleading practices, yet you got called out on the floor for doing the same thing. I do not think you aged or altered the item in question, but you used terms that a long time antique dealer should know is wrong to use when describing a $10.00 reproduction item. And yes, you are motivated by greed because this same POS can be found for $10 and you are asking 3X the fare market value. I have vented, and I know I have the support of many members of this site. Break out the polishing compound, your image needs a little cleaning!

Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: Jerry Westfield] #419279
Fri May 31 2013 01:18 PM
Fri May 31 2013 01:18 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,272
Longview, WA
Bob Richards Offline
Veteran Member
Bob Richards  Offline
Veteran Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,272
Longview, WA
I can't believe I am writing this:

But, how about.... Everyone "step back and take a deep breath"?

Diane, used a term I wouldn't have... She has said, that she used a poor choice of words in her description...

As to it being "unmarked"? It is marked with a 1970s date, unless I read wrong? No I just checked the Auction again, it does read "Date of Origin" 1970s ? and says Reproduction....

But, how did this thread go from a question about a CONOCO pump plate, to an attack on another Oldgas Member?


Looking for Tide Water/ Tide Water-Associated/ Tidewater items
Re: Fake royal pump sign [Re: Jerry Westfield] #419280
Fri May 31 2013 01:32 PM
Fri May 31 2013 01:32 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 316
ca
ddkinsey Offline OP
Petro Enthusiast
ddkinsey  Offline OP
Petro Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 316
ca
You have a right to your opinion, as I do. I have not promoted myself as anything. I don't pretend to know everything.
Your attack of my business is over the top, exactly what is your motivation? Overreaction to the term NOS ?

Go look in the mirror and polish all you want.

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