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#422915 - Sat Jun 15 2013 03:10 PM Red Indian Repro (Stencilwork) VS Red Indian Orig.
minuteman Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Sat Apr 05 2003
Loc: Big Sky Country
The repro porcelain jar rack sign that Stencilwork makes would be hard to tell from an original UNLESS you have an original to compare to....then it is easy to spot the fake if side by side....I have pictures of both here for future reference as I'm sure there will be more coming in the future....the lettering and color are off quite a bit...the S in oils seems to be a problem with the repop as it intersects with the diagonal line...last but not least the original is ink marked "The W. F. Vilas Co. Ltd."
in bottom right corner.


Attachments
orig red ind (Small).jpg

Description: Original sign

repop red ind close (Small).jpg

Description: Stencilwork repop


_________________________
Wanted early tin litho signage.
petro, farm, auto, etc.

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#422928 - Sat Jun 15 2013 04:45 PM Re: Red Indian Repro (Stencilwork) VS Red Indian Orig. [Re: minuteman]
Curtisstewart Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Thu Jun 13 2013
Loc: Windsor ON Canada & Detroit MI...
Do you have a picture of the back of the reproduction?

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#422931 - Sat Jun 15 2013 05:02 PM Re: Red Indian Repro (Stencilwork) VS Red Indian Orig. [Re: Curtisstewart]
57tbirdkid Offline
TBA Feature Host

Registered: Tue May 04 2010
Loc: NY
Im sure "stencilwork" watches this site......
_________________________
The most valuable commodity I know of is information-Wall Street

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#422948 - Sat Jun 15 2013 06:28 PM Re: Red Indian Repro (Stencilwork) VS Red Indian Orig. [Re: Curtisstewart]
minuteman Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Sat Apr 05 2003
Loc: Big Sky Country
Originally Posted By: Curtisstewart
Do you have a picture of the back of the reproduction?


No i dont as i never bought one, but then you wouldnt hang it with the back facing out would you? lol
You have what you need to tell the difference, i dont see what difference the back makes thats all...mm
_________________________
Wanted early tin litho signage.
petro, farm, auto, etc.

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#422950 - Sat Jun 15 2013 06:34 PM Re: Red Indian Repro (Stencilwork) VS Red Indian Orig. [Re: 57tbirdkid]
minuteman Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Sat Apr 05 2003
Loc: Big Sky Country
Originally Posted By: 57tbirdkid
Im sure "stencilwork" watches this site......


Your point is? Are we better off with buyer beware and I take it off here, cause I can if you like....as I know the difference, just trying to help out the uneducated...mm
_________________________
Wanted early tin litho signage.
petro, farm, auto, etc.

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#422952 - Sat Jun 15 2013 06:37 PM Re: Red Indian Repro (Stencilwork) VS Red Indian Orig. [Re: minuteman]
coopersplace Online   content
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Thu Nov 19 2009
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Very good info. This should also be in the Unmarked Reproduction and Fantasy Petro Photo Album. Maybe one of the moderators can place it there as well? Cheers, Don.

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#422961 - Sat Jun 15 2013 07:04 PM Re: Red Indian Repro (Stencilwork) VS Red Indian Orig. [Re: coopersplace]
57tbirdkid Offline
TBA Feature Host

Registered: Tue May 04 2010
Loc: NY
Kim nothing agaianst you..education is important in the right hands...but if they are wacthing,..educating the repro people only helps improve the product.
_________________________
The most valuable commodity I know of is information-Wall Street

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#423565 - Tue Jun 18 2013 01:28 AM Re: Red Indian Repro (Stencilwork) VS Red Indian Orig. [Re: 57tbirdkid]
minuteman Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Sat Apr 05 2003
Loc: Big Sky Country
Originally Posted By: 57tbirdkid
Kim nothing agaianst you..education is important in the right hands...but if they are wacthing,..educating the repro people only helps improve the product.


thats true.... but he must have had an original picture to start with i would think....time put into quality just isnt there, or perhaps close is good enough to fool most without exerting too much effort....mm
_________________________
Wanted early tin litho signage.
petro, farm, auto, etc.

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#423654 - Tue Jun 18 2013 01:54 PM Re: Red Indian Repro (Stencilwork) VS Red Indian Orig. [Re: minuteman]
K W FRITH Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Sun Oct 21 2007
Loc: Devils Lake, ND---USA
Thanks for posting this Kim!
_________________________
Everything Cities Service
Specializing in old Gas Pumps
kwfrith@gondtc.com
Cell#-701-739-6133

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#423665 - Tue Jun 18 2013 04:01 PM Re: Red Indian Repro (Stencilwork) VS Red Indian Orig. [Re: K W FRITH]
Jerry Westfield Offline
Active Member

Registered: Sun Mar 17 2013
Loc: Orlando Florida
Clearly the best way to sale reproduction signs is to list them for sale from India. Those eBay sellers in India are like Elliott Ness in The Untouchables!

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#423729 - Tue Jun 18 2013 09:21 PM Re: Red Indian Repro (Stencilwork) VS Red Indian Orig. [Re: Jerry Westfield]
Dave's Garage Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Mon Dec 05 2011
Loc: Abbotsford, British Columbia, ...
IMO you are doing the right thing MM. We need to get this information into the hands and minds of the potential buyers. Informed people are wise buyers. Wise, informed buyers is what is going to hurt these forgers.

They could make all the signs they want overseas. That won't make them money. They make money when the local crooks buy them and then turn around and sell them locally to unsuspecting buyers. We need to own the problem and lay the blame where it belongs. It's the local crooks that are the greater problem and the root of this threat. I would imagine the local crooks are the ones providing them with details of what signs to reproduce.
_________________________
Dave GILL,
Dave's Garage & Memorabilia, Inc.

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#423800 - Wed Jun 19 2013 08:47 AM Re: Red Indian Repro (Stencilwork) VS Red Indian Orig. [Re: Dave's Garage]
K W FRITH Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Sun Oct 21 2007
Loc: Devils Lake, ND---USA
Right on the money Dave!
_________________________
Everything Cities Service
Specializing in old Gas Pumps
kwfrith@gondtc.com
Cell#-701-739-6133

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#424704 - Sun Jun 23 2013 08:03 AM Re: Red Indian Repro (Stencilwork) VS Red Indian Orig. [Re: minuteman]
Wes Hague Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Aug 08 2007
Loc: canada
What about these Kim,,,, think they are repro,??,, no name on them.. might even be the one you bought from me,,,
Then there is always these rack signs, what do you think of these Kim,,, no name on any of these,,, how about where the "S" in Oils is,,, shall I go on and on, I have owned approx. a dozen of them either in oil racks or single pieces,,, I have more of them you want to see more,,


Attachments
IMG_4826.jpg

IMG_4835.jpg

side four (2).JPG

side three (2).JPG




Edited by Wes Hague (Sun Jun 23 2013 08:48 AM)
_________________________
Wes.......

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#424730 - Sun Jun 23 2013 09:54 AM Re: Red Indian Repro (Stencilwork) VS Red Indian Orig. [Re: K W FRITH]
Wes Hague Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Aug 08 2007
Loc: canada
Here are a couple of other rack signs, no makers name on them either,,


Attachments
Red Indian aviation rack sign sold $1100.jpg

Red Indian double sided oil rack sign sold $1340.JPG


_________________________
Wes.......

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#424733 - Sun Jun 23 2013 10:03 AM Re: Red Indian Repro (Stencilwork) VS Red Indian Orig. [Re: Dave's Garage]
Wes Hague Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Aug 08 2007
Loc: canada
Here are some more RI signs, no makers name on them, these are all signs I have owned and sold,,


Attachments
26x72,bid to $5700US SOLD.jpg

side two.JPG




Edited by Wes Hague (Sun Jun 23 2013 10:05 AM)
_________________________
Wes.......

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#425020 - Mon Jun 24 2013 06:42 AM Re: Red Indian Repro (Stencilwork) VS Red Indian Orig. [Re: Wes Hague]
Wes Hague Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Aug 08 2007
Loc: canada
or this one


Attachments
Red Indian Motor Oil SSP sign, 20x21 (1).jpg


_________________________
Wes.......

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#425953 - Fri Jun 28 2013 05:50 AM Re: Red Indian Repro (Stencilwork) VS Red Indian Orig. [Re: Wes Hague]
Wes Hague Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Aug 08 2007
Loc: canada
What ! no comment ??? I can post more Red Indian signs that don't have WF Vilas Enamel Products or any makers name on them.. and their all 100% original...I guarantee it..
_________________________
Wes.......

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#426042 - Fri Jun 28 2013 03:44 PM Re: Red Indian Repro (Stencilwork) VS Red Indian Orig. [Re: Wes Hague]
Dave Richey Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Mon Nov 24 2008
Loc: Pearl Mississippi USA
If you look at the words 'MOTOR OILS' on the first one labeled as a repop, you will notice that ALL the letters are stretched and skinny, not just a problem with the 'S'.
_________________________
Collecting the Mississippi companies:
Billups, Southland, Rose Oil,Crystal Oil, Barq's

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#426159 - Sat Jun 29 2013 01:26 AM Re: Red Indian Repro (Stencilwork) VS Red Indian Orig. [Re: Dave Richey]
minuteman Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Sat Apr 05 2003
Loc: Big Sky Country
Sorry for not getting back here asap but was on a road trip, 3200 miles in 9 days of driving, visiting and a little picken, so didnt get to the computer....but then i really didn't expect to need a rebuttal on this thread....You are right Wes, all red indian signs are not marked (dont believe i said they all were) just so happened the one i had was marked so i showed a picture of it(i appologize if i misled anyone)....it is nice to see that all the rack signs you show are exactly the same in color and lettering....not one looks like Stencilworks picture....I do believe with all that background and info you have Wes you should be able to spot an India repop in a second...its the others that are not as learned as you that i was trying to show the difference.....thats all.


Edited by minuteman (Sat Jun 29 2013 01:33 AM)
_________________________
Wanted early tin litho signage.
petro, farm, auto, etc.

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#427044 - Mon Jul 01 2013 11:38 PM Re: Red Indian Repro (Stencilwork) VS Red Indian Orig. [Re: minuteman]
Alex Offline
Moderator, Value Forum

Registered: Mon Dec 08 2003
Loc: Butte, Montana USA
Thanks for the education guys. Reading about the repops on this site almost makes me discouraged...
_________________________
Alex
Looking for Texaco and Power Gasoline items

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#427062 - Tue Jul 02 2013 05:45 AM Re: Red Indian Repro (Stencilwork) VS Red Indian Orig. [Re: Alex]
Wes Hague Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Aug 08 2007
Loc: canada
Don't get too discouraged, not all of what is posted on here is 100% for sure, most of it is, but not all of it.
_________________________
Wes.......

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#427943 - Sat Jul 06 2013 02:50 AM Re: Red Indian Repro (Stencilwork) VS Red Indian Orig. [Re: Wes Hague]
Dave's Garage Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Mon Dec 05 2011
Loc: Abbotsford, British Columbia, ...
I think everyone needs to be discouraged especially by what I am about to point out and bring to light.

Reputations are at stake, because once again money seems to be more important then integrity.

I've spent a lot of time analyzing all the above pictures in this post. Comparing the known stencilworks fake posted by the MinuteMan and all the pictures posted by Wes Hague of known originals.

The glaring flaws in stencilworks signs are as noted below.

1) There is less white in the braids in the fake sign.

2) The "R" is real sloppy in the word "MOTOR" at the bottom of the fake.

3) Small white speck below the eye and at the nose is absent on the fake.

4) The distance between the bottom of the braid to the top of the "R" in the word "MOTOR". This variance in the spacing is what effects the placement of the "S" at the diagonal meeting point between the red and black background colors.

5) There is more black and a lack of detail in the area where the upper and lower lips meet on the fake.

There are more differences but these are the most obvious and no need for more proof; to me it is clear at this point. That with these notable flaws in the fakes that I can readily spot a fake.

You may also note that when Wes was posting pictures of all the original signs he has owned, he left out this sign (the one pictured below). Why????

Also, I was turned off by the tone of Wes's posts; it made me question why he was defending fake signs or at least mudding the waters.

Anyways, this isn't an attack, but rather just the facts being laid out. I for one, am disgusted!!!

Below, I have posted a picture of a fake. This fake sign is posted on Wes Hague's website as being sold as NOS for $5200.00 by Wes Hague. By the way, another NOS sign void of grommets.

http://www.ridgewoodgasolenecollectibles.com/

NOS = New Old Stock and should never = Non Original Sign!!!

You be the judge, and form your own opinion.



Attachments
Fake sold by Wes-1.jpg




Edited by Dave's Garage (Sat Jul 06 2013 03:38 AM)
_________________________
Dave GILL,
Dave's Garage & Memorabilia, Inc.

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#427954 - Sat Jul 06 2013 05:13 AM Re: Red Indian Repro (Stencilwork) VS Red Indian Orig. [Re: Dave's Garage]
Wes Hague Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Aug 08 2007
Loc: canada
Tell us what you think of this oil rack,,, what is your expert opinion on it,,

Comparing the known stencilworks fake posted by the MinuteMan and all the pictures posted by Wes Hague of known originals.

Dave on the pictures I posted before you call them known originals,, how do you know that, only I know whether or not they are originals, they are only really known by me.. maybe they are and maybe they aren't ?

While we are still on known originals, what about this RI Aviation sign,,, is it correct ( I mean original or reproduction ) ?

Dave this whole thing with signs, globes, is all muddy,, whether you want to believe it or not,, like I have said many times before, Nobody ( not even you ) has seen everything there is,, oil companies bought globes, signs from different manufactures over the years, colours changed, designs changed. Look at oil cans for example, a friend of mine in Alberta has 44 Different White Rose oil cans alone..one has the wording this way , one has something else different.. My father, brother and myself worked as private contractors for all the major Oil Companies from the late 1950's to the late 1980's, we restored and rebuilt thousands of gas pumps, the paint alone was bought locally, red was red, just RED, sometimes it was the same as the last time and sometimes if they were out of that red we bought another one, Shell yellow, same thing, or Supertest... Globe manufacturers were the same, ask any real knowledgeable globe collector,,, ( I mean knowledgeable ),,, not some collector with a few dozen either... There is more to know about signs and globes in this hobby than any of us will ever know, real serious collectors will tell you that,,I mean the guys that are so called experts,,, that doesn't include you. smile

ONE LAST THING FROM ME,, I WILL GLADLY REFUND 100% OF THE PURCHASE PRICE, INCLUDING POSTAGE OR SHIPPING TO ANYONE THAT BUYS ANYTHING FROM ME THAT ISN'T EXACTLY AS WHAT I DESCRIBED IT TO BE. Is that clear enough ? or Is that too muddy for you.. ?


Attachments
Red Indian oil bottle rack - Copy.JPG

RI Aviation.JPG

Red Aviation 2.JPG




Edited by Wes Hague (Sat Jul 06 2013 05:49 AM)
_________________________
Wes.......

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#427961 - Sat Jul 06 2013 06:44 AM Re: Red Indian signs, [Re: Wes Hague]
Wes Hague Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Aug 08 2007
Loc: canada
Check these signs, white in braids, no white in braids, facing left and right, pointed nose , blunt nose, lots of variations here,, some skinny letters, some fatter ones on the same sign..

Here Dave, just in case your not too busy today,,, ha,ha,,, analyze these ..


Attachments
5ft. Poker Frank, sold $8500.jpg

5ft. sign, single sided,$8700.jpg

Aumann auction 24 inch, sold in Columbus $6500US.jpg

Chris Von Klitzing.JPG




Edited by Wes Hague (Sat Jul 06 2013 06:47 AM)
_________________________
Wes.......

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#427962 - Sat Jul 06 2013 06:45 AM Re: Red Indian signs, [Re: Wes Hague]
Wes Hague Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Aug 08 2007
Loc: canada
more


Attachments
Matthews auction.jpg

Red Indian 3ft. sold $5700, mine.jpg


_________________________
Wes.......

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#427970 - Sat Jul 06 2013 07:46 AM Re: Red Indian signs, [Re: Wes Hague]
Wes Hague Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Aug 08 2007
Loc: canada
This is the same identical sign with the picture taken at a different angle and light..


Attachments
IMG-20130703-00318.jpg

porc. sign 1.jpg




Edited by Wes Hague (Sat Jul 06 2013 07:46 AM)
_________________________
Wes.......

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#427987 - Sat Jul 06 2013 08:55 AM Re: Red Indian signs, [Re: Wes Hague]
Craig Osbeck Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Tue Jan 06 2009
Loc: Portland Oregon
This is confusing to say the least.
_________________________
Craig

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#427999 - Sat Jul 06 2013 09:24 AM Re: Red Indian signs, [Re: Craig Osbeck]
Wes Maxwell Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Oct 15 2004
Loc: Central Ohio
On another post a few months ago people were comparing two Sinclair curb signs. I stated then that just because there are differences that does not prove one is real and one is fake. Differences should be used as possible indicators to determine if a sign is right or not but just because something is different does not prove it is fake. There are many oil cans with minor changes, as there are with signs pumps and globes. Not all signs were made at the same time by the same company and with the amount of hand work that went into making some things there will be differences. Plus the mounting holes and other things can be off. Differences should be looked at as possible indicators of a fake. Experience and others knowledge can help determine what is right or not. Then again do not believe all of the opinions or statements of fact on this or any other site are 100%. Good luck with the hunt
_________________________
US Air Force Retired, 1981-2007

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#428007 - Sat Jul 06 2013 09:49 AM Re: Red Indian signs, [Re: Wes Maxwell]
ward zaharia Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Tue Apr 01 2003
Loc: yorkton sask canada
Mr Maxwell

This is a little different kim pyett posted a picture of a red indian sign that was made in india and sold on ebay here on this thread then wes hague puts a sign on his website for 5200.oo that looks exactly like the sign kim just posted as fake. This all makes me sick. Kim lets hear what you think of the sign wes sold for 5200.oo ? Kim will not reply to this and say what he thinks because he does hot want to mess up future dealings with wes????

ward zaharia

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#428129 - Sat Jul 06 2013 06:24 PM Re: Red Indian signs, [Re: ward zaharia]
Wes Hague Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Aug 08 2007
Loc: canada
I GIVE UP, HONESTLY ??
_________________________
Wes.......

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#428209 - Sun Jul 07 2013 11:03 AM Re: Red Indian signs, [Re: really]
Chevrolet SS Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Sun Apr 03 2011
Loc: DeKalb, IL
Posting for clarification...you be the judge.

First picture is the one Kim posted on June 15 as a Stencilwork repp, below is Wes sign.

Opinions welcome.


Attachments
Stencilwork_repop.jpg

Description: Stencilwork Repop

REDINDIAN.jpg

Description: Wes Sign




Edited by Chevrolet SS (Sun Jul 07 2013 11:10 AM)
_________________________
Ron Gordon
Cell: 815.762.2616
Email: flash03@comcast.net

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#428211 - Sun Jul 07 2013 11:15 AM Re: Red Indian signs, [Re: Chevrolet SS]
dundign Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Thu Nov 20 2008
Loc: El Cajon,Calif, USA
Ron your Pm box is full call me at 619-971-1614..Tom

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#428212 - Sun Jul 07 2013 11:17 AM Re: Red Indian signs, [Re: Chevrolet SS]
Dave's Garage Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Mon Dec 05 2011
Loc: Abbotsford, British Columbia, ...
Pretty clear to me.

As always and once again; Really has no idea what he is talking about but has a great need to post and disrupt the discussion at hand.

Really you need to learn to read, comprehend what is being stated and then intelligently articulate your point. Wrong and not fully thought out or formulated thoughts and opinions are a waste of everyone's time.
_________________________
Dave GILL,
Dave's Garage & Memorabilia, Inc.

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#428214 - Sun Jul 07 2013 11:23 AM Re: Red Indian signs, [Re: Dave's Garage]
really Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Mon May 13 2013
Loc: Texas
Dave....what did you just say other than put me down? Do you think the sign Wes has is fake or real? ..."Pretty clear to me".......with no position to follow those 4 words is pretty vague for someone who uses the word articulate????


Edited by really (Sun Jul 07 2013 12:37 PM)

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#428353 - Sun Jul 07 2013 09:25 PM Re: Red Indian signs, [Re: really]
greasemonkey Offline
Active Member

Registered: Sun May 01 2011
Loc: tennessee
dang, fairly new to this hobby, started with one sinclair oil can (brought back memories of playin'around in my great uncle's station when i was very young). now I have around a thousand different cans, have restored three gas pumps,two lubsters, and one sinclair oil cabinet. (not to mention all sorts of garage equipment). I have come to rely on this great website to keep me from messing up too bad. thankfully most all the bigger signs i have have come from old gas members or been recomended by them. thanks for the info. on signs ,but I still dont trust myself to spend over a couple hundred bucks on a sign unless I get advise from my more experinced friends(mostly members on here).
thanks again for all the info- even when it gets a little confusing. Garry

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#428489 - Mon Jul 08 2013 02:57 PM Re: Red Indian signs, [Re: greasemonkey]
KZ1000 Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Sun Oct 21 2007
Loc: Mass
BUSTED!
_________________________
"Remember, history that is forgotten is doomed to repeat itself!"

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#428502 - Mon Jul 08 2013 05:00 PM Re: Red Indian signs, [Re: KZ1000]
gulfiend! Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Jul 01 2005
Loc: Raleigh, North Carolina
Originally Posted By: KZ1000
BUSTED!

...I agree...the way Ron has posted the photos side-by-side, makes it easy to see that the signs are identical...if one's fake, so is the other...
_________________________
Looking for better Gulf items: signs, globes, cans and paper - especially porcelain Gulf flanges, and Gulf A-38 & A-62 ad glass...

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#428503 - Mon Jul 08 2013 05:02 PM Re: Red Indian signs, [Re: gulfiend!]
57tbirdkid Offline
TBA Feature Host

Registered: Tue May 04 2010
Loc: NY
Looks like a child made the border on that sign with crayons very sloppy
_________________________
The most valuable commodity I know of is information-Wall Street

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#428504 - Mon Jul 08 2013 05:19 PM Re: Red Indian signs, [Re: 57tbirdkid]
gulfiend! Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Jul 01 2005
Loc: Raleigh, North Carolina
...the one offered by the counterfeiter in India, 'stencilwork', eBay #251273258879...note the area circled in green:



...now, let's look at the two pictures offered by Wes, of the sign listed as sold on his website for $5200:




...if you look closely, you'll note on ALL of the other porcelain oil stand signs posted by Wes, that particular feather 'breaks' BELOW the diagonal line...but not on stencilworks' sign OR on the one Wes sold for $5200...






Edited by gulfiend! (Mon Jul 08 2013 05:19 PM)
_________________________
Looking for better Gulf items: signs, globes, cans and paper - especially porcelain Gulf flanges, and Gulf A-38 & A-62 ad glass...

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#428537 - Mon Jul 08 2013 07:25 PM Re: Red Indian signs, [Re: KZ1000]
Wes Hague Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Aug 08 2007
Loc: canada
Busted my *****, I just give up disputing an item with some guys that don't know what there talking about.
_________________________
Wes.......

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