Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums General Petroliana Discussion RedHotRelics an open letter to the OG community

First and foremost I would like to say hello to the OG community. I have been a member of the site for a couple weeks now, and i am really enjoying it. Thank you for putting such an awesome site together!!

I am writing this letter to enlighten everyone on who I am and how my business operates. As many of you may know, i have recently popped up in the petroliana advertising business not too long ago. At this time i would like to share with you how i got started in all of this and the long road i have been down to get where i am today. Hopefully in this letter i will have the answers to many of the controversial issues that people have with me and earn the respect from those who have been against me.

My name is Anthony. I am 22 years old and have a bachelors degree in international business. About a year ago I started buying and selling antiques because i was always a fan of the TV shows and i thought it was a cool hobby and a way to make a few bucks. Also i had the same lightbulb thought that most people in this business had "Hey if these guys can do it, then so can I". I was also motivated in wanting to do something on my own because i was tired of making other people money. Believe it or not i started my business with $250 and with a lot of mistakes, wins, losses, stress, time, and hard work i have made it to where i am now.

I bought my first sign in August of 2012. Something clicked, and i fell in love and developed a passion for the advertising part of the antique market. I was buying sign after sign. Il admit that its an addiction, and i think most of you will agree with me that its a slight high when you get your hands on a sign you really want... Fast forward the year. I registered as a business, bought and sold hundreds of signs, and most importantly gained an education that is priceless.

I do about 80% of sales online and 20% in person. I have been told from many collectors that i have great stuff. I want to say thank you. I have seen plenty of collections that put my stuff to shame though. One of the biggest and most relentless issues i have been facing recently is the fact that my stuff is priced very high. Let me take this time to address my reasons why i price stuff the way i do....Unlike a lot of other dealers who sell at petro shows in cash and who dont have to deal with the same overhead costs that e-commerce dealers have to deal with then please continue reading.

Lets start from the top...I put most of my items up for best offer. Now just because i put it up for a designated number does not mean that i am looking or expecting to get anywhere near that asking price. I accept most offers that are decently fair and in the ballpark so i encourage people to make their offers. The reason i ask high prices is because i get so many lowball offers everyday that i try to only focus on serious buyers. I have my website in development currently, and all my signs will be listed for a set "buy it now" price and you will see the significant difference in prices when you compare them to eBay.
The initial cost of buying inventory. Almost every well known dealer in this business will vouch that i pay very fair prices for my signs. I have receipts to prove it. I live in the tri-state area where prices are not the same as the middle of kansas (no offense). So people who think i get this stuff for cheap of next to free are just plain ignorant for the most part. Secondly need i mention the eBay & Paypal fees. I believe im paying somewhere around %12 between the two. I will not give a general number what i owe ebay every month but what i can tell you is that its always well into the 4 figures...Now lets get into packing materials and supplies. No, I dont scrounge to get free Tide Bleach or Bounty paper towel boxes at the local dollar general. I spend about $200 a week on double wall cardboard boxes from uhaul, tape, shrink wrap, bubble wrap, packing paper, and 1/4" thick plywood. Most of the signs i ship get shrink-wrap to a plywood board that costs $7 and then goes in a flatescreen TV box that costs $6. So as you can see the expenses are quickly adding up. Keep in mind that some of these signs can take a couple hours to pack, especially if you have to build a wood box frame for it. Also im one of the few dealers who offer to ship larger signs across the country and international, so with that convenience comes a higher asking price... Now we ship. Most of the time i will actually undercharge for shipping and lose money... I have employees, which is the highest expense in any company. Gasoline isnt cheap and when i go picking i rent a truck. I pay rent to store my inventory since i dont own a warehouse or home. I also pay for business insurance. Theres a lot more expenses but i cant think of them all rite now, but when all is said and done i still have to pay a slew of taxes on all the profits at the end of the year. Its not what you make, its what you walk away with. So people who think im doubling, and tripling are out of their minds. Yes i do good in gross sales but what profit i walk away with is about %25 after all expenses. So for the people who say im ripping others off or im trying to get rich off this stuff are dead wrong. I put in about 60 hours a week running this business for not a whole lot of money but i love it and its enough to support myself for the time being.

My businesses mission statement is "to provide a service for people by hunting down the best signs i can find to buy and resell wether they are starter signs for someone looking to get into the hobby, or top collector pieces that are very rare".

Another issue i would like to address is the negative comments when not only myself, but other members post something for sale on this site and then be ridiculed like where some kind of bandits. At the end of the day its none of your business to know what people pay for their stuff or what they want to sell it for. Their price is their price, and it should be respected either way. Im tired of members commenting by making unnecessary jokes and witty remarks that make them look jealous and immature. If you have interest in buying it then PM them. Even if you dont want it, I think any petro enthusiast appreciates a good thread of comments. I for one find it enlightening because thats how we all learn something new everyday. So if you have no interest in buying or adding some insight to the discussion then please keep your comments to yourself and stop hiding behind your keyboard.

The last thing i would like to address is the ongoing issue of the repro signs from india and argentina. I have only been buying and selling signs for about a year now and i learned a lot so far. I have made plenty of mistakes and learned from them. Although i am not an expert or as knowledgeable in this business as i would someday like to be i know that many people were getting on me for selling a handful of repro's claiming they were original. Look, im sure we have all been burned once or twice before when buying. I bought out a private collection in March and in the mix there were several questionable signs that i was told were original, so obviously i tried selling them as originals because i didnt know better at the time. As time went on some people said they were fake and others said they were real. What i did was pull every sign listing that was questionable and disposed of it because i didnt want it on the market anymore so nobody else got burned. I already made a thread on OG and said that if theres any sign that i am selling that is questionable then please bring it to my attention because i will pull it in a heartbeat. I would like to apologize for selling the questionable signs because i was ignorant to the fact of their origin, and i want to thank the people who called me out on it because you actually helped me. I literally do about 3 hours of research a night learning the history of these signs more and more so that i can be an expert one day like some of you. I think that that these foreign signs are literally destroying the fun and integrity of this hobby and i want do do my part in helping prevent these signs from being imported into the country.

Over the past year i have met so many good hearted people along the way in this hobby. I understand how small of a community it is and how quickly your reputation can be developed weather its good or bad. I wanted to address these issues in a professional manner and lay my cards on the table because if im going to be in this business for the long haul i would like to clear the air and tell people where im coming from at least.

In closing, i joined this site not only to step up to the plate to defend myself while also educating myself, but also to become more personable with the petro community. If i am selling anything that you have interest in I encourage you to contact me personally via call, email, or text. Thank you.

Sincerely,

Anthony Koban-862-220-2440
RedHotRelics LLC
Owner

Email- sales@redhotrelics.com

redhotrelics.com

Anthony

First off welcome to the site. Its good to see someone with drive and it seems like your trying hard. I am one of the young collectors in the hobby so I understand some of the challenges you may be facing. All the costs of doing business you mention is something you have to tread lightly with. You cant make the market prices on a sign because you paid x amount, ebay fees cost x, packing materials cost x. It just does not work like that. This is a hobby for many people and a job for others. These items are only worth what the market bears and who is willing to pay that. Putting high prices on items may scare a lot of serious buyers away. On numerous posts you have mentioned " well i paid a lot". Well if you plan to make money on these items...do the leg work, know your product without having to use the internet or books, and paying the right prices will make you successful.

Good luck with your Business

Good letter and opening. Hope that you do well and thank you for your honesty.

you make a good point. It is nobodys problem what i paid for a sign since if im trying to resell it. At then end of the day a sign is worth whatever somebody is willing to pay for it. I would say that there is a guidline of general market prices for signs because we have plenty of books, completed listings, and google of course. The way i make a decision when buying a sign is first and foremost at worst if i make my money back then im ok with it. But as far as your comment on all the expenses, it really is just the cost of doing business that many people tend to overlook. If you buy a sign for $100 and then sell it for $200, that doesnt mean you make a 100% profit. But i like what you said about how not everyone is not in this as a business to buy and sell and there are just collectors also... I wish i was a millionaire so i could only buy and keep all this stuff but it cost too much money to hold onto it unfortunately.

thank you for taking the time to read the letter and i appreciate your comment.

After 27 years in business I have just one thing to add... buying high and selling higher is not a good long term rule so take time and do your homework with any investment. Good luck!!

Thats fair game.. I will become more contentious of the prices i buy signs at from now on. But like i said before and i think it matters a little..a lot of the prices that people pay are determined by where they live in the country.

Thanks for commenting,, i think this will become a good thread

If I may say that was a long thought out introduction. The only thing I can tell you for sure is if you have good collection of items and you get to know a lot of good collectors in this hobby you will not have to depend on ebay to sell and pay all the involved fees you can work a deal with a real collector with out going to all that trouble. I am not trying to make a living at buying and selling but when I have had signs or pumps that I wanted to sell and they were worth a good profit I sold them as quick as I wanted with out leaving any money on the table. Been doing it for 30 years . Just my two cents .
Good Luck

IMO, try to stay off of Feebay. The fees are killing you. Sell in your area and on here. I quit selling on ebay because i would sell a few things for about 100, and then the paypal fees, and hidden fees, I have to pay ebay $40, and I only make a few bucks. Just my 2 cents...

Thanks for reading the letter guys...Yea i am going to expand and start selling more on here, through past customers, and even at petro shows. It honestly sucks to have to pay the fees, but i sack up the cost of doing business. The one reason why i like ebay is because its a good platform to sell on in general. It markets your product to the world, so sometimes its good to use technology to your advantage. Plust i try not to hold onto stuff for too long. eBay lets me generate a quick turnover rate on items because for the most part they sell quickly.

Sell on CL, much cheaper. eBay is the worst

Don't quit yer day job either

haha, good luck and be flexible. chances are you will feel differently after you've been doing this for a few years. I like to get high prices too but you have to leave the buyer some meat on the bone if you wanna sell quick

And don't believe the "majority" on oldgas on everything. Your 15" Texaco sign looked great to me (I too have one dated, 3-37, w/diff't trademark).

Good luck

If you are going to start selling more on here, Just remember you are dealing with Hobbyist and Collectors that know the hobby, asking exorbitant prices expecting an offer just won't fly here.

well heres what i plan,,, any really good sign i get it i want to list it on here for sale before i put it on ebay... Give the collectors a chance to have a crack at it, and il also get a better understanding of the value, while avoiding fees if it sells.

As far as selling on craigslist, i do.. I advertise but not a whole lot...My cash prices are much much cheaper than what i ask online. But about 70% of people who i meet up with are dealers. They tell me they are collectors, then when i meet them i can tell right away that they want to resell the stuff. I can read them like a book by the way they talk. Also a lot of people waste your time on CL and never follow up with ya.

Welcome.
My advice,you're going to see a vast difference in price between selling something here vs. selling it on eBay.
Ebay asking/selling prices are for the most part,from the uneducated and very exaggerated.
More true educated people are on this website and will not pay ebay's shown selling prices.
You will get real world prices here,from real world collectors who want to own & hold onto it,which again for the most part,are significantly lower then outrageous ebay shown prices,if they are even true.
I wish you the best of luck,and has been said earlier on here,educate yourself before the sale,not after.

Welcome aboard Anthony,

I have to agree with your CL comment, alot of contacts but very little follow through. But it keeps your business name out there by having ads on it.

Paul T in SC

Welcome Anthony!

Great to see other young members joining! I just recently turned 19 and I'm already addicted to the buying/selling aspect of antique advertising

ALL Businesses get complaints, Very few air them.
A lot of what you stated is the cost of doing business. All businesses have overhead whether stated to their customers or not, WE all know that, but complaining to your customers won't justify why your placing higher values on items your selling. CONDITION IS VALUE, more so than Rarity. Rough Rarity, say a cond. 5 is not worth 1/10 of Rarity in 9+ cond.. Whether you own/rent a truck or building, you still have expenses, no greater or less. Having employees is Your Choice to increase volume to flip, package & ship, which in turn adds even more $$ to your company value.

Ebay is the cheapest ADVERTISING you can buy, World Wide selling potential, 24/7 coverage + the Free Wanted to buy emails you receive because of something seen in background that hasn't been listed yet on ebay [not listed so no fees paid to ebay if you sell it, PP gets a small fee].

99%+ on here are collectors, the 1% that are flippers are using Oldgas as a Free Selling Venue w/o Fees. [Some do make Donations or auction off items w/ Free Shipping for the benefit of operating cost of keeping Oldgas a Free Site]

As a buyer when I decide to attend a show or swap meet, I have expenses & I accept them Hoping I will add some thing I want to my small collection. Should I [we] complain to the seller that it cost me XXXX $ for fuel etc. to attend to maybe buy their over priced item[s]? NO.

Are you really that Thin Skinned that being a Newbie to the Flipping World, the Truth Hurts or feel that because you are a New Member you should be treated as a small child? You've already stated it's a Business. Run it as such & quit looking for Sympathy.

Price your items according to CONDITION & a Fair markup & flip it. Pricing it thru the roof Hoping to snag a sucker that hasn't done their homework won't fly here or on ebay. By not selling quickly, you'll incur more storage time w/ possibility of damage just from moving it around.

[OH, & my last name is spelled w/ 2 T's]
[1st is Richard, but everyone calls me DICK]

Well said DB

You sure went out of your way to tell us a lot of things that no one cares about, you spent a lot of time writing "the letter" before you put it on to enlighten us. Guess what? Your rating among us just took a dive...again. I could go on for pages more but DICK pretty well put it in the proper prospective. I second it DB and nominate you head collector/gasser. Hiding behind my keykboard, Terry Flannery

Noone in the hobby is going to warm up to a flipper that outwardly admits they purposefully overprice everything - Not to mention that complaining about the shipping and fees you pay (you chose to pay) has absolutely nothing to do with any of us.

This site isn't established as a venue for sales as far as i can see, and doesn't cater to that. It is; however, where many of the hobbies collectors congregate (Attention: that is your target demographic)so I would personally tone it down if you have any hopes of reaching them.

I DECLINE any SPECIAL TREATMENT & have Received NONE
[I've had more post/replies REMOVED/DELETED than Most have made. Some have Claimed I was picking on them. IF the same comment had been made by anyone else it wouldn't have been Notify-ed/Deleted!].

Respect is EARNED, NOT guaranteed because your NEW, YOUNG, IN-EXPERIENCED, UNDEREDUCATED, COLLEGE DECREED, etc.

Your trying to stuff a large marshmallow into Your Piggy-bank, GOOD LUCK.

This is better than a good book. ; )))

Welcome to oldgas,grasshopper!

It isn't unusual for new businesses to operate at a loss the first few years. Plus in 5 years over %50 of small businesses fail. That's why the list has made recommendations for you to have another job, so this new business can be a side thing until it looks like it can support you.

In the meantime cultivate collectors, mentors and let the folks in your town, city, state, region know what you are looking for so you don't pay retail prices.

Remember, you are talking to many here who earn money in this way, and know about all overhead--including me, who is in a different but equally difficult field to earn a living in.

You have a choice to hold on to the stuff you paid too much for and hope the market will be better for selling in the future, or dump it with only a small markup, to clear the way for you to get stuff you purchase that you can sell for a profit. As I understand it, it's a volume business. Bring decently priced decent stuff to the list or ebay or trade shows or whatever, and you'll gain the reputation that takes a few years to build.

Discouragement comes to every business person and the ones that make it, are the ones that learn and do better. You've gotten good advice in this thread, so take it in as constructive criticism

Best of luck to you.

yada yada yada.BOTTOM LINE.you make a deal with a person you pay up.No reply,no call.Its BS.Nuff said!

Hello,

I read your post and think you have made a big mistake in writing what you wrote. As others have said the majority of people on this site are collectors who enjoy sharing information and have a love for old petro stuff. It is ok if you want to make a business out of what you saw on TV but be smart and do not complain about normal business expensives or try to justify your pricing to anyone here. There are many people out in all areas trying to copy cat pickers etc., and thus prices are becoming unrealistic for most.

By the way I have friends in Kansas and have spent time there and prices are just as high. They have cable TV also. LOL

No offense just my opinion.
Rob

Remember American Pickers had to go on TV to make money at this hobby. Besides they sell T-shirts to make up the differences. Good Luck. Mitch

Just Remember YOU said you joined Oldgas to learn.
In less than 3 weeks you have Turned Most of the active membership against yourself.

Click on my User Name, then click Profile, find IGNORE THIS USER & click it. I did on yours.

[After you have spent time in Selective Service, then you can call me a Dick.]

Welcome to Oldgas

all well said

I usually crawl into the dumpsters on Sunday morning behind the malls when the stores are closed and scarf up all the bubble wrap, Styrofoam, and foam rubber that is available. I have only purchased three cardboard boxes since 1985 and have shipped hundreds of items.The furniture stores and stores that sell a lot of imported decorator items are the best but be careful of broken glass and ceramics. I also jumped in one once(in the 1980's) and was trapped for ten minutes until I piled stuff up and got myself out...what stories. lol My point? Cut your expenses. Buy low, but fair...sell or trade low, but fair. Have fun. Give others a break every now and then and don't expect to make a living from it. The market fluctuates. This stuff has little or no utility. Sure it's cool, but it doesn't actually do anything. Be realistic. I have bought and sold thousands of antique vending machines, jukeboxes, signs, etc. over the years and it is all just STUFF. I understand that some of it is more valuable due to demand, but it is still just stuff. Have fun. Dave

Anthony,
Thanks for your open letter and honesty!
Your sincerity shows and I hope the best for you and your business. I started as a picker like you 14 years ago and now Im a collector and I also buy and sell alot of signs.
Not too many can say THIS is ALL they do for a living, BUT I can.
Good Luck!
If you ever have any questions or would like advice, Feel free to ask...
Tom VanHolten
219 778 3155

No two businessman are alike in their business style. Having said that; all successful businesses share some very basic fundamental principles. I won't bother restating them as they have been addressed numerous times in this thread by others already.

Just going to respond to All instead of individualizing each response.

First off,, thanks to all the people who welcomed me in and see where im coming from for the most part.

I am taking all of this constructive criticizm into consideration. In business its great to hear out everybodys opinion because no two are alike usually. Even if some of the responses are still critical, i know that for every bunch of apples you will always get a couple bruised ones. In the letter i wasnt trying to complain about all the fees and expenses i was just stating reasons why my starting prices are high. Thats all.

I work very hard and put in wayyyyyy over full time hours doing this, and i freaking love it!! I take care of my customers though. For those people who want something bad enough and who dont want to go out to try to find it (picking) then all they have to do is click a button and it will show up on their doorstep. I make their life easy because im the one who does all the leg work.

Also, i have to mention.. I never met a collector who doesnt sell. 2 Things ive learned is that everything has a price and everything in this world is negotiable. Ive boughten items out of peoples private collections before from very reputable collectors in this business (not naming names). So i agree to to a point with the person that said "this site is made up of 99% collectors and 1% dealers" but in reality everyone buys and resells. Were hardwired as humans and also as Americans to be like that.

Im done posting though most likely..I will probably just be using this site to educate myself more and more now.

Keep the thread going!!

Anthony, your post was so long that I was too tired to read any of the responses. : ) I hope they were not typical of some I have read here in the past made by, I'm guessing, grown men sounding like a bunch of old biddies.

I don't know how you could have stated your case more clearly and maturely. Every day I see the results of people who jump into business thinking every penny that comes through the till is money in their pocket, they having no true concept of COGS. Those doors soon close. The other end of that is the peanut gallery observer who thinks that every penny that comes into the till of a business is money in the greedy owner's pocket. Once again, no idea of COGS. This group smirks knowingly when the doors close.

I think you are on the right track with a Buy it Now concept. I think I replied earlier that it is hard to tell what you consider to be a lowball offer when the initial price is perceived to be in the stratosphere. A BIN format should clear up that issue.

Good luck. I hope you are able to survive and flourish.

everyone on here buys, sells, & trades at some time or another. we all have overhead. and so do the thousands of competitors you have on ebay selling the same sign or something similar.

stick to whatever game-plan you prefer, but trying to convince yourself that you are in a different position than others is naive.

my advice, buy what you want, and ask prices that are comparable to the market. use proxibid, ebay, liveauctioneers, shows, swap-meets to help determine those prices. if you have an item that has value and ask a price that represents that value accurately, your item will sell... no matter the medium used.

if you ask too much for an item... the only real excuse would be that you are in too deep on that piece and hoping to find someone desperate for the item. (I think we've all been in that boat before)

Dave,

Yes I actually sat down and discussed the idea with a few people and got some opinions. The call was to change up the business strategy a little bit and see how the response is. We shall see if this is successful.

Thank you,

- Ant

Just love reading these.

Shipping boxes and packing for free.... Guys if you have a Bodyshop near you stop by and see them for boxes and packing materials. Most of my parts at my shop come in boxes of all different sizes with packing. I have never had to buy any for shipping items and I still have to pay for a cardboard recycling dumpster that gets unloaded twice weekly...

Mike,

Unfortunately that does not work well for us.

2 potential issues with used cardboard

- Potential Infestation
- Soggy wet boxes or not strong enough card board

We buy pallets of boxes brand new from our supplier. In addition to boxes we buy Ply-wood, shrink wrap, packing tape, fragile labels etc.

We really choose to go the extra mile for our customers. I would feel wrong asking alot of money for an item and cheaping out on average packing materials. That is just my general opinion. But you do make a valid point...profit margins can be increased if we were to get used boxes but then I feel the quality of my service and reputation of customer satisfaction goes down. I get messages all of the time on ebay regarding customer concerns with packing before we ship out. If someone shells out an excessive amount of money for a sign, they want a good packing job.

Well you just stated if someone shells out "an excessive amount of money" for a sign they want quality packing.

Yes, that's true (and a de facto admission of excessive pricing)

I've used discarded carpet padding from a local carpet store in town and I tell you it's some of the best FREE packing material available.

In today's economy, with your prices, I very seriously doubt customers expect brand new labels and boxes. Customers want reasonable pricing and a package to arrive safely at their door.

Buying brand new materials to justify your pricing isn't the best way IMO

PS: stating your Gulf sign on EBay is "100 year old" Victorian style sign isn't the best way either. But I digress

Just wanted to know if any of you let ups pack them for you? For the price of a five dollar box it sure saves me a substantial amount of time and effort. Plus they have gotten pretty good at it.

I will edit that for you on ebay. It is about 100 years old. I will add the word about. I believe it to be from the 20s to 30s right?

Most of the signs I ship are usually big. I maybe can look into it.

victorian references the era of queen victoria... which ended in 1901... the sign is not that old

I will edit it

Anthony, the boxes I bring home to ship big stuff in, are near new and perfect that had doors, fenders, hoods, grills ect in them and for free it makes a big difference.

A common thread I see in this, well, thread, is justifying high prices. I think that's the way it all started.
There's no need to justify your (anybodies) price.
You price it, if I want to pay that price or feel it's within negotiating room we'll go from there.
If I feel it's too high, I'll pass and keep my mouth shut.
If it IS priced too high then it'll probably come down after it there's no bites.
Much ado about nothing, but it is entertaining (in a train wreck sort of way)

But what it does do is to slowly inflate prices over a period of time. We have all seen Ebay and online auctions have the same effect on prices.
I spoke to a gentleman today about a vending machine that sold on Ebay for $3000+. I told him that I sold one in unrestored condition in 1990 for $275. LOL
Example: Anthony's Gulf sign. I saw one of those WITH the pole priced at $100.00 at an auto show/swap meet and it was unsold for two days back in the early 1990's. NO MAS! You find one today and the sign alone is $300-$1000. Add another $200-$400 for the ring.How does the seller justify it...he saw one like it on Ebay. It is similar to shoplifting...everyone eventually pays if your are in the hobby.In a free enterprise-market economy the buyer determines the price, but those buyers with the most money create high prices for everyone.IMO + economic theory. Dave

ENOUGH