Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums General Petroliana Discussion SHELL AIR -- Please read, please help!!

If anyone can help me with information on this sign I would appreciate it. Please read all of this. I have read the post on this forum from about 3-4 years ago about this sign. I still have had mixed opinions from several long time collectors.

This sign came from a couple of guys in Ohio whose family has been in the demo business for 3 or 4 generations. Most of the stuff they were selling was original without a doubt. This sign came off of a roof being used as shingles of some old building here in Ohio...they have pictures of it. At the time of purchase the sign was covered in tar on both sides. There appears to be several layers of porcelain. The AIR letters are very slightly indented and not flush. It weights approx. 3 lbs. measures approx. 14"H x 15"W. Obviously biggest thing is corners aren't square.

From research I found another person selling one of these awhile back with the same story -- roof from Ohio. I know what the original 11 x 12 sign looks like. I just wondered if anyone has found any more information? No one has 100% been able to verify that its a fake or not. I've heard just about everything but looking for facts and if it is worth anything or not.

I am new here, I appreciate everyone's time that replies, thanks you! Don't think I put photos in right, any advice there would help too!

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Your links don't work.

ok, hope they work now. trying to post them from my album on here, not sure what I am doing wrong

Still not working. After clicking, it ask for a login

http://oldgas.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=144744&page=1


...is this it?

that is it. just can't figure out why I can't link my pics in my album to this post. still not convinced these are fake. I hope some one knows...

email me a picture & will try to post for you:..
advertologist@yahoo.com

here's the pictures

People have told me to stay off these since they first were "found", but my gut keeps telling me the signs "might" be right. They sure look and feel good and how many times do you see double sided repops?

Could have been rejects by either sign company or SHELL & an employee decided he would use them as roofing material.

A fellow old gasser was burned on one of these...I am not 100% certain they are fake...however judging from who I have seen selling them I feel like they are... the one my buddy had was burned or "sooted" up on had grommets in the holes but u could tell they were pounded in verses it being a factory install...also the grommets used looked just like other fakes from Ohio I have seen. Usually they look burned vs having roofing tar on them... but seriously...who would use a sign that's this small as a shingle? With big signs being all over Ohio...plus absence of nail holes in field...something doesn't add up (plus they generally sell for 1/4 price of known real McCoy's... just my two cents...this is why unmarked pops stink...

We have all seen the old painted tin signs used for shingles and like you said...they all have multiple nail holes in them. You could not hammer a nail through most heavy porcelain steel signs...and way too much trouble. You would have to hang these upside down and use the grommet holes and then overlap.LOL Dave

I have no idea if the Shell sign is right or not but I have seen a lot of signs that have nail holes in them. I just bought an unfinished Texaco flange sign that had the flange bent flat and had a couple extra holes in it. The one hole still had a broke off nail in it that was sealed in with tar or something. I cleaned it up, took out the nail and sold it at Iowa.

IF they were made just before or during the Depression, money was tight/non existing for most & you used what was cheap to cover a roof for your family or the livestock that your existence depended on.
If you have the choice of putting $5 onto a roof or putting that $5 to buy food [would most likely feed your family for a week or longer]. What would you do?
I grew up in a poor family & I know what Dad did. He would go w/o so his 3 kids & wife had something to eat.

I can't even imagine how much trouble it would be to hammer a flange out flat...like on a Gulf sign.It would take you 5-10 minutes with a 2 lb mallet. I've had signs that someone had shot and the bullet didn't even go through...a Shell at that ! Dave

Dave,
Quit using a 2# Rubber Mallet.
Send me your signs, I'll use my Foot!
You must be the guy on Right in your avatar picture!

...I've seen the photo of these signs on the roof, but I couldn't find it...

...I find the idea that these signs were used as shingles more plausible, than someone made a bunch of fakes, shingled a roof with them, tarred the roof, dismantled the whole thing and sold them as original...just sayin'...

Very creative & resourceful to use as shingles on a roof.
employee helped the company by hauling them away & saved himself the expense of buying long term roofing materials.
I remember seeing the B&W picture also Mark.

thanks everyone so far for the replies and information. this sign is certainly a monkey on my back. I am going to continue to dig for info. I really don't think now they are fakes but i really want to know the true story. they all seem to be coming from the same 2 guys -- some of you know who I am talking about. I don't think they made them. I think they did come off a roof, aside from that I got nothing. I have their contact info and am going to try find out more info. Hoping to get more posts....

Ask them for pictures of roof when found.

Back in the day. The other guy was is my dad. He passed away in 2010...1st Air Mobile Division(1st Cal) and 187 Airborn. Korean war and 2 tours Nam, but couldn't whip lung cancer. Tough guy. We wrestled that 71(?)off a farm outside Montgomery, Al. LOL Dave
PS I've done all kinds of roofing...steel, asphalt, built up, cedar shakes, etc. I'm sticking to my guns on this shingle thing. It would be a tough way to roof a house and you would have to hang them upside down without adding additional holes.It would be a heavy roof also, but not excessive. Dave

The guys you are talking about are always at our local flea market in town selling, seen the air sign around five years ago and had same story about the roof deal ,he had a photo album showing pics of roof they were taking off but wasn't very clear pic to tell what was really going on, been a lot off debate on ther oil bottles and the 24 inch shell motor oil sign that comes from the guys.

I say we give them a Georgia polygraph exam. Duct tape them to a longleaf pine and pour a coke bottle full of no lead on their heads and show them the bic. Works every time. Dave

Here is one of the ones from Ohio as well as a gasoline sign from the same source. Nice to be able to have two odd rare signs for sale on the same day and another a few rows away.
Nice professional Allen Morrison Sign Co. dating job, very crisp and clean like the thousands of other AM signs they made and dated.

Don't forget all those Shell jars coming from Ohio as well and the Hudson's.

Makes me want to buy a Shell Air with a little tar on it from Ohio.

I guess by 1954 Allen Morrison Sign Co. had gotten a little more professional at dating their signs. Amazing they stayed in business for 70 plus years with such sloppy signs as a Shell Gasoline.

I just recently saw one of these signs at a show here in Canada, the guy had it priced at $3000..

Were they owned by the Hatfields or McCoys?

The AIR sign these guys had were clearly of better quality and made by someone other than the manufacturers of the other jinky Shell repops they had. As well as 90%of the rest of their stuff. When they were first"found" a few years ago, I was on the verge of buying one off ebay, with the grainy picture of the guys on the roof. (personally I dont think it would be tough at all to use for a shingle. they were never flanged -No harder than a slate roof) Anyways, I got talked out of it then. Then at the last two Mich. gas, these "gentlemen" had one. I held it in my hands and it felt and looked really good to me. Julie (my woman) was looking over the rest of their "merchandise" and convinced me I would be foolish to buy anything from them. Still when I was walking away, I felt like it might be a mistake to leave it behind...

Jim - Take Julie out to a NICE dinner my friend She (and your gut) saved you 5-1k Its not fun hanging a sign with the "voodoo" on it...you'd always question it. And you are right...quality "appears" to be there... If you're looking at coughing up serious dough on a sign and you get gut rot while looking at it...BALE!

I thought the photo was in the old thread about these signs ?

"Still when I was walking away, I felt like it might be a mistake to leave it behind..."

No mistake JimT, sign in question is fake.

..

I realize this sign isn't the original 11 x 12 or even made by the same company. I know what the "real McCoy" looks like from the 30's this is obviously not it. what bothers my is no one has an actual answer. its not like there are tons of these floating around, they are coming from the same place, with the same story and the same guys and there are pictures. I still think there is something more to this -- may never know I guess. just because they are different doesn't mean they are fakes. maybe from a different time, an older repro, rejects, who knows...

IF it was written history that the Sign or SHELL company REJECTED these signs, it would be easy to answer your question.
I find it unusual for someone to shingle a whole roof w/ UN-damaged signs even if they worked for a major SHELL OIL Distributor. More plausible they worked for the sign company & these signs were Rejects.

Would they have produced dozens or even hundreds of these signs before getting the go ahead(approval)? When I worked in a foundry, we usually made 3-4 pieces for the customer to inspect before going into production. Who wants to waste all those resources and man hours and end up hauling them off.
You guys may never solve this one...
Dave

I thought AM sign company never made porcelain signs

Air signs are porcelain , motor oil sign enamel, if I remember the story the roof with air signs was around coschocton Ohio,large sign factory in that area in the day

All my SHELL Motor Oil is Porcelain

Talking about the two different shell signs the Ohio guys sell in this post.

I'm from Coshocton Ohio and there were several sign manufactures of both tin and porcelain signs. I've seen the photos of the Shell air signs but never heard of them being from Coshocton. I do however know of a house outside of town and have been there that is lined in porcelain firestone signs that came from the H.D Beach enamel factory. Also know of another house that was lined in tin signs found a couple years ago in town. I could take you to several places in Coshocton where porcelain signs are used to patch holes including Oakland Pontiac signs patching holes in a farmers roof. Don't know much about these Shell signs but it is possible, not saying that they are "right"

The red on the Shell Motor Oil looks like it was drawn in with a Sharpie. And poorly drawn at that! IMHO

x2

Starting a new thread on these signs. Hate to beat this topic to death but I am going to continue to dig up information if I can, would like to get to the bottom of how old they are, where they came from, and if they are real or not. I recently came in contact with a guy who's uncle took a couple of polaroids (albeit not great shots) of a building that was using these signs as shingles to cover holes before he tore the building down. The building was pretty old but haven't had a chance to talk to the "uncle" yet to find out any dates or any more info. They were on a building on a farm near the Tuscarawas River in Coshocton County, Ohio. I will continue to post if I find more info...

here is one more pic I just got...he said most of them he scrapped for metal not know what they were.

The Beach porcelain company was alongside the river in Coshocton Ohio. I have seen a few unfinished shell signs in this area. They had the base redish colored porcelain on them without the top coat of yellow. They looked to be a bigger size than the air sign but in my opinion the Beach company did make some Shell signs. Not saying the air signs in question are real but in my opinion they might be? I know a lot of signs in this area were used as building material.

The discussion which rants on about these Shell AIR signs is really getting under my skin: You guys who like to post your opinion without any real knowledge about what you are talking about.... 'YOUR 2 CENTS' is doing an injustice to those who own or may have 'WHAT IS TRULY REAL' and a valuable item, which you are calling a fake.

Firstly, if I were to go and produce copies and try to pass them arond as originals, I would certainly... especially since I would intend to do porcelain in the same workmanship as it originally was done,... would copy the ACTUAL design of a known sign, NOT CREATE MY OWN DESIGN! Otherwise, I would have to be really STUPID!
Secondly, to do all this work and create double sided signs as fakes is also rediculous.

I personally own both versions (smaller and the larger) AIR signs and they are both REAL. Shell Company has no record of "THE OFFICIAL SIGN" of the style and period, OF ALL THE SIGNS THEY CONTACTED FOR. If you look at the larger more common dealer signs, there are countless differences in what commonly comes up for sale; and yes, the shell logo changed repeatedly during their history, but all signs were not matched precisely as theY were produced during any particular time period, and especially by different contractors. So, as it is with the much less produced AIR sign, just because some guy wrote a book, and put a picture of one that he saw, does that make any other a fake?

As per the ones I own... They were taken off actual Air pumps at 2 different gas stations in Connecticut by my father, who acquired these while I was a kid. I am now 65 years old. Sure, someone may have copied one of these styles, but those copies look like copies, and I have seen a few of them. They are not the same quality and are not heavy like the real 2 versions are.

Another thing about old porcelain signs, the metal used was iron, not steel, as is commonly used today, even among forgers. Sheet Iron is not available (no market for it). The patina is different, the thickness is thinner as well, and the iron signs pit quite readily when the porcelain is damaged, the steel ones do not.

Also, any one of you arbitrary posters ever consider that there may have been a design change in the AIR sign, as Shell Company changed their logos to modernize, as they did from time to time, and that what you guys are arbitrarily calling a fake is merely a later production after a design change, and by a different contractor.... As in: this is the 30s version, and this is the 40s version, etc.

AM Beach Co, Coshocton, Ohio... most likely producer of the 2nd version, which went out of business a long time ago, and probably had supplies of un-distributed signs which were scoffed up by locals, who used them any which way they desired. YES, these were used on a roof... times were tight back in the day, and a metal roof with tar over would be quite reliable. Consider this also: In those days, who was thinking about future value of everything of the period, as in being collectible some day? If that were the case, the things we call rare today, would not be... and we would have too many of everything out there that has been saved, and consequently nothing would be worth anything. These signs that were used as roofing, were considered as just metal to the guy who did that, and he probaly saved a good sum of money he didn't have to spend on a roof.

As in so many blogs, too much opinion, and not enough facts.

Anthony,
first of all welcome to oldgas. that was quite a first post & well to the point. Would you post a picture of
your 2 varieties of Shell Air Signs so we can get educated..
Thanks-

...I'm just glad someone found the photos!

I agree with "Tonydgt"

"As in so many blogs, too much opinion, and not enough facts."

I worked for five major oil companies from the 50's-80's , they changed sign design, paint colors, etc. from time to time...different manufactures . It is very hard for ANYONE to know all there is to know about what is original vintage and what is made in the last 30 years..

Hello guys... I'll get pics by the weekend. Thanks