#496896
Fri Dec 06 2013 05:49 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 61
Active Member
|
OP
Active Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 61 |
This may have been posted in the past but I couldn't find it anywhere. Does touching up porcelain devalue it?
Thank you Scott
|
|
|
Please - NO offers to Buy or Sell in this forum category
Statements such as, "I'm thinking about selling this." are considered an offer to sell.
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 19,379 Likes: 983
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 19,379 Likes: 983 |
no, can always be removed..
RANDY
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 758
Petro Enthusiast
|
Petro Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 758 |
Personally I would not care ether way but if the person is trying to be misleading with it it makes the seller seem a little shady in my view.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,262 Likes: 1
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,262 Likes: 1 |
I think if the colors don't match and the job is impossible to ignore, then it devalues it to me more than the holes, pecks, etc.
Collecting the Mississippi companies: Billups, Southland, Rose Oil,Crystal Oil, Barq's
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,702
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,702 |
I never touched a sign that been touched up.. You don't know what's going on underneath the touch up, you can damage the sign further removing it.
It might be different buying in person, but off of ebay etc... not me.
Follow some auctions where there's touch up involve and judge for yourself....
Last edited by blacktee; Fri Dec 06 2013 08:15 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,780 Likes: 5
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,780 Likes: 5 |
IF you hadn't been Touched Doug, you'd still be single!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 307
Petro Enthusiast
|
Petro Enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 307 |
I dont think it matters at all, Its what you want and if your selling it the person who is buying it will look for those areas and paint come's off of porcelain very easily and WILL NOT hurt the sign
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,005
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,005 |
I think we have to be careful. Sometimes touchups aren't so obvious. I have a freind who works for an auction co. He does great work on sign repair wouldn't be obvious to except to an untrained eye. He's on par with the Van Kannels. That horse looked like it had been hit in the chest with a sledgehammer.
Seeking Knowledge and a Good Deal. Always looking for neon signs and skins , Flying A ,& Wayne 60s.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,659
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,659 |
Touchups to porcelain restore value to a piece. The issue isn't the touchup but the representation of the seller of a repaired piece. Since I deal in more than signage I have discussed this issue in depth with collectors and sellers alike.
First, let me say that touchups in general when done well do restore value regardless of what some collectors want to deny. Ask Christies auction house or any serious auction house, when they let their bidders know the issues and repairs they get better results.
Second, there are always going to be individuals who don't want a repaired/restored piece; but conversely there are many people who don't let restoration stop them from owning a piece they desire. And from a sellers point of view these people will tell you to find them a better piece so it increases your business with them.
Third, the quality of the restoration greatly affects the value. Poorly done restorations are a waste of time if the purpose is to create value, they don't and often can detract from a sign. Overly done restorations to "better than new" do restore value, but they limit the potential customers and thus potential value. Sympathetic restorations and well executed ones restore the most value and are appreciated by the best collectors.
Fourth, buyer beware on any "mint" piece, if you are dealing with an unknown seller always inspect a piece, including a blacklight and magnet(in the case of metal pieces) which will most often help you find damage. I find that many collectors are willing to buy repaired pieces as long as they are represented as such. A good seller should represent a repair upfront, and if you as the buyer do spot a repair point it out to the seller if they don't do so when describing a piece.
Fifth and finally, establishing the value of a repaired piece is like establishing the value of anything being sold between buyer and seller. A price is quoted and it's the buyers decision whether the price is fair to them. One person may value a repair ed piece very low, while others appreciate the overall effect the repair has on a piece and are willing to pay more. For the rarest of pieces restoration may have been the only option and is of little consequence to the specific collector. Again, establishing the value is between a buyer and seller.
Collecting anything keeps you young at heart!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 385 Likes: 1
Petro Enthusiast
|
Petro Enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 385 Likes: 1 |
Thanks for that review Paul! I get the utility of a magnet to discern metal (iron containing) from non-metal (like Bondo) but how is a blacklight useful to discover repairs/restorations? Does it better show variations in topography?? Dave
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,702
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,702 |
The thread/question is about "Touch Ups" not Restoration. There's a huge difference.
Oh yeah paint comes off real easily ??? I guess with children's water colors. Good luck getting paint out of all the pits etc... having more porcelain damage ? Just my thoughts I'll bet non professionals 75% of the time don't even come close to matching the color. I'm a firm believer in leaving signs alone, unless you do go and get a professional job done.
I'm done. ; )
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,659
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,659 |
Dave, a blacklight tends to react differently to old versus new surface paints and can show areas of repairs.
FYI Blacktree... on porcelain you can remove paints using muriatic acid.
Touchups or restoration, a well done job is better than one not so well, and again it's between the buyer and seller whether it effects the value.
Collecting anything keeps you young at heart!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,604
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,604 |
I have bought and sold signs at shows for years! Touch ups severely hurt a signs value! I wont buy touched up signs UNLESS I know I can remove the touch up during cleaning. I also know that a high percentage of my buyers dont want touched up signs... I have also seen touched up signs bring BIG money after being done CORRECTLY and advertised as such! But generally the touched up sign once restored ONLY brings 1/2 to 3/4 of the value of a mint one...Just my opinion!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,162 Likes: 46
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,162 Likes: 46 |
But generally the touched up sign once restored ONLY brings 1/2 to 3/4 of the value of a mint one...
With a lot of signs the difference between "mint" and rough is huge. If you could take a sign that was only worth a fraction of a mint version and restore it to 3/4 that value I would think that would be a worthwhile process in a lot of cases. To me "mint" means like new, no blemishes, as it would have been the day it was made. What you usually see an item described as is "near mint" and that can mean any number of things depending on the beholder. The question has to be whether the properly touched up piece is worth any more (or less) than it would be if left alone. If that value is relatively the same or higher then what's the harm or difference if everyone is aware of it. I would rather look at a sign from five feet away that looks like new ( even if it has been touched up) than a beat up barn hanger that has "character" ......BUT THAT'S JUST ME....GB
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 351 Likes: 3
Petro Enthusiast
|
Petro Enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 351 Likes: 3 |
I think it all has to be looked at on a case by case analysis. just how far gone can it be before resto/repair hurts the value? here's one I did a while back. it was a pretty well worn sign to say the least before I did anything to it. only restored one side, so no deception if I ever decide to part with it. so tell me, in your opinions, did it lose or increase value? I'm happy, as I ended up with a very presentable sign to hang in my shop for very little money. I also have a D-X motor oil sign I plan on doing the same with. I know this is an extreme case & also have a few untouched signs with a few freckles that i'll leave alone.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,659
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,659 |
Nice work on that 66!
Back to the issue of touchups and value... In the spring I saw one of the harder to find lollipop Texaco's hanging in an antique shop. From 5ft and further away you couldn't see the repairs it had to about 4-5 spots where it'd been shot by someone years ago. At that time I found examples of the sign in mint condition and others with similar damage. The difference between those two was roughly $400. The price on the restored one fell right in the middle of that $400 difference. As a reseller I couldn't buy it, but I could see it being worth that amount to one of my buyers.
As I stated in an earlier post, I sell more than signs and I've run across the gamut of people, from those who won't touch restored to those who won't touch mint. There is a buyer out there for everything at the right price so I don't get uptight about damage or repairs. If you don't like it, don't buy it; but don't diminish it's value as if there is only one right opinion that must be upheld.
Collecting anything keeps you young at heart!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 307
Petro Enthusiast
|
Petro Enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 307 |
You hit that right on the button
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,702
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,702 |
Let's watch this auction...
221332029487
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,659
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,659 |
Why would I watch an auction where the seller has an opening price higher than I think is reasonable?
Collecting anything keeps you young at heart!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,659
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,659 |
As for that sign... I'd rather watch this one... 190702583784.
Last edited by Watchdog7; Mon Dec 09 2013 07:07 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 19,379 Likes: 983
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 19,379 Likes: 983 |
.. ebay # 221332029487
RANDY
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,659
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,659 |
LOL... PT Barnum at work.
I do like that they have included shots of the damage, I just hope bidders actually look at each picture.
We'll see whether the price goes anywhere near their BIN figure.
Last edited by carolinaskies; Mon Dec 09 2013 03:31 PM.
Collecting anything keeps you young at heart!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 19,379 Likes: 983
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 19,379 Likes: 983 |
I'd rather watch this one... 190702583784. if you could get it for what they want for postage you would be alright, that sign is not going to sell.... value: minimal..
Last edited by Watchdog7; Mon Dec 09 2013 07:08 PM.
RANDY
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 67
Moderator
|
Moderator
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 67 |
STOP with the personal attacks. Some posts have been removed & others Edited to remove personal attacks.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,659
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,659 |
I'd rather watch this one... 190702583784. if you could get it for what they want for postage you would be alright, that sign is not going to sell.... value: minimal.. Yep, I doubt it will get an opening bid... but I like to watch those type because usually they get re-listed for realistic prices.. That one though is an example where good touch-up would add value. The other one I don't believe the touch-up did anything for it's value and why I wouldn't watch it. BTW.. what do you consider minimal value?
Collecting anything keeps you young at heart!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 19,379 Likes: 983
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 19,379 Likes: 983 |
[quote=carolinaskies] I'd rather watch this one... 190702583784. if you could get it for what they want for postage you would be alright, BTW.. what do you consider minimal value? 35.00 "buy quality even if you pay too much" rarity & condition, this sign has neither, IMO this sign is not a candidate to be touched up..
RANDY
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,389 Likes: 40
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,389 Likes: 40 |
To have that sign correctly "restored" is going to cost at least $400. after purchasing it, for any amount of money, It doesn't seem like any meat left on that bone.
"Remember, history that is forgotten is doomed to repeat itself!"
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,194
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,194 |
To have that sign correctly "restored" is going to cost at least $400. after purchasing it, for any amount of money, It doesn't seem like any meat left on that bone. Restoration is costly, VERY Costly. You wont get much done "right" for 400 bucks. You are going to pay top dollar for the artist to make paint blend into porcelain. Sellersrodshop, for doing that 66's sign yourself it looks fantastic, considering what it looked like before! But i can promise if the Van Kannel's did it if would be a small fortune, probably more than the sign would be worth mint. I am not going to get in the cross-fire of touch ups but i know personally i will put a dab of paint on a pop to make it not stick out like a sore thumb on the wall. But that is just my preference as some signs i cant afford a minty one. My cover up of a small pop is not to fool an unsuspected buyer in the future but just for my display until a better one in my price range comes around.Any paint i use is water soluble so it comes off if i wash it down, as none of my signs go outside the house. I see no harm in self touch up if it is removable. Professional restorations are a totally different beast. I think a professional restoration can help the right sign but never to the extent of a mint sign IMO.
Quart and Liter can relidding and dent removal services.PM for detail and pricing. Collecting Mobil and other graphic quart cans.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,702
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,702 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 19,379 Likes: 983
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 19,379 Likes: 983 |
where are they coming up with these prices?, that POS looks like they dug it up..
Last edited by Watchdog7; Mon Dec 09 2013 08:36 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,389 Likes: 40
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,389 Likes: 40 |
Van Kannels signs come back completely redone, I know of one guy who will repair the damaged sections only and will blend the work in so it is extremely hard to see the repair. the rest of the sign is left as is so it does not look like a new and shiny sign. at a minimum you are looking at $400. for the "spot" repairs.
"Remember, history that is forgotten is doomed to repeat itself!"
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,659
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,659 |
The cost of a touch-up is minorly relevant to value unless it's excessive, or if the intent is to immediately sell the sign.
Like most collectors who have touch-ups or restorations done I would assume the collector is going to enjoy the sign in their collection for some time and when opportunity avails itself, improve their collection some time later.
Since I handle vintage toys regularly I run into restored/repaired pieces all the time. Typically a collector who is selling one realizes a toy has to stand on the merits in it's current condition. Poor restorations or touch-ups do nothing, good one's restore value. Most of those collectors know they may never recover what they spent on a restoration/repair, but they also realize they've had the opportunity to enjoy the toy in their collection and that was worth the difference.
Collecting anything keeps you young at heart!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 8,818 Likes: 2
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 8,818 Likes: 2 |
I'm missing something here.
I fail to see why anyone would want to have a entire sign surface restored. All you are saving is a dented, rusty, pitted sign slug (steel). In my books, it is no better than a reproduction sign. It will never be anything more then an over glorified and over priced reproduction sign that someone spent more on then what it was ever worth or will be.
Save the effort and buy a reproduction sign, use the monies saved to buy a real sign. That way, at least you would be supporting this hobby in a positive manner.
Dave GILL, Dave's Garage & Memorabilia, Inc.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,780 Likes: 5
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,780 Likes: 5 |
Repairing a Porcelain sign w/ Bondo & Re-painting is the same as repairing Severe Hail Damage to your prized Camaro/Mustang w/ Bondo & Re-painting.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,255 Likes: 12
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,255 Likes: 12 |
Repairing a Porcelain sign w/ Bondo & Re-painting is the same as repairing Severe Hail Damage to your prized Camaro/Mustang w/ Bondo & Re-painting. Except the Camaro/Mustang wasn't originally refinished in Porcelain. LoL here's one to test the "restore or not restore prices"!! http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-25-Sunray-D...=item20dc71df21141137403681
Thanks Mike
Always Looking for any Pure Oil and Sunoco Items.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,780 Likes: 5
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,780 Likes: 5 |
What I was referring to is Fill in all the dents & Re-paint. It's still a Damaged car/sign.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,162 Likes: 46
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,162 Likes: 46 |
The discussion of this topic reminds me of a political debate between conservatives and liberals.....entertaining, but mostly pointless without a useful conclusion...GB
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 12,282 Likes: 12
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 12,282 Likes: 12 |
I'm missing something here.
I fail to see why anyone would want to have a entire sign surface restored. All you are saving is a dented, rusty, pitted sign slug (steel). In my books, it is no better than a reproduction sign. It will never be anything more then an over glorified and over priced reproduction sign that someone spent more on then what it was ever worth or will be.
Save the effort and buy a reproduction sign, use the monies saved to buy a real sign. That way, at least you would be supporting this hobby in a positive manner.
I think you pretty well summed it up here Dave! I'm in total agreement!
Everything Cities Service Specializing in old Gas Pumps kwfrith@gondtc.com Cell#-701-739-6133
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,979 Likes: 24
Veteran Member
|
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,979 Likes: 24 |
I am in that position right now, today. Do I take this sign and fix it with just touch up, or do I do the whole sign and make it beautiful looking like a restored car. I am thinking of selling one side and restoring the other because I do not think it looks that great the way it is. The side shown it the good side. Tell me what you would do from a collectors stand point then. Thanks
Craig
|
|
|
|
|