Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums General Petroliana Discussion help with esso paint code ppg

I am restoring two gilbarco 296 s to esso and esso extra. I had these #s esso red 70619 and esso blue 11402 and white 8101 these were ditzler codes from the gas pump collectos guide. I took these numbers to my ppg dealer and they do not cross reference to any thing except the white to a 8894. So now I am stumped can you guys help

I forgot to ad that I am in canada so I can not just buy paint for vics or something like that I am sure that some one must have these codes.

ward

Hello Ward,
I saw your post today and I will have you some color formulas in a day or two.

I sell PPG paint and so I know how to work the system. Most paint jobbers are not going to take the time to research it because it is time consuming.Bear with me as I have to take care of business first.

The blue and red formula numbers were good numbers at one time. The problem with old formulas is that most cannot be made now due to discontinued mixing toners. Also,they would probably have been available originally in straight enamel or lacquer. Not very good quality paints to do a restoration with.

I have already received three of the four formulas that PPG was suppose to fax me. I think the fourth just didn't get into the system. The red was from a 1955 Chrysler. I knew that PPG's color library usually has a spray out plaque of most original colors. The white has been offset to a newer color that is available in newer paints. I actually didn't check to see what type of paint that it can be made in. I'll check tomorrow.

I checked to see if there had been any Prophet(PPG's color scanner)readings done already.There had been.I am getting formulas
in DBC basecoat and DCC acrylic urethane single stage. Need to know if you want basecoat/clearcoat or single stage.

PPG always suggests doing sprayouts to verify color. For a gas pump,it's usually not that critical. I'll try to mix a small amount and see how colors look. I have seen Prophet readings that were great and others that weren't even close.

I'll have to call library tomorrow to get them to fax me the other formula.I'll try to let you know this weekend. How long before you actually need paint?

Pat Anderton


[This message has been edited by puregas (edited 08-25-2005).]

[This message has been edited by puregas (edited 08-25-2005).]

[This message has been edited by puregas (edited 08-25-2005).]

[This message has been edited by puregas (edited 08-25-2005).]

[This message has been edited by puregas (edited 08-25-2005).]

Pat you are the greatest

I want to paint them in ssu. The prophet system sounds great but the nearest one was two hour drive away and I thought no problem I have this code. My plan was to leave a small area of origional paint behind the trim tag (the only area that had not been repainted). I usuall leave that and the when it is done it is covered up by the tag. What happened is I too the pannels to my blaster and forgot to do this. In my inexperience I thought no problem I have the code it will be ok. Now as far as how far along they are I have blocked them out in k36 twice and hopefully just have to do a final sanding with 400 and shoot. I think that the local ppg dealer did try I just do not think that he has your ability and knowlege. thank you for helping me out on this pat

ward

I just want to bring this up to the top so that pat can find it

ward

Hey Ward,
I haven't forgot.I got the other formula Friday morning. I'm going to mix a small amount to see how it looks. Of course I don't really have anything to compare to.Is your email available through OldGas?
Also, I was wondering,you said you have skins primed and blocked with K36. Did you use any DP epoxy or DX etch first? It's best to. I'll be in touch in a day or two. Mondays are always busy.Talk to you later.
Pat

Pat, thanks so much for pitching in and helping Ward out like you are doing. That's the Oldgas.com community spirit.
You can get Ward's email by clicking the tiny "postcard" icon to the right of his name in the messages he posts.

------------------
Jim "Oldgas" Potts
Your host and moderator

Pat

I did use dp 40 as a direct to metal primer and I spot in the sand throughs that get to the metal in between rounds of blocking the primer surfacer. I sanded all the pannels with 400 wet paper today and they look quite good. I also noticed that I have a 5 gallon can from imperial esso here that has the same colours on it so I am not totally beat. I have three chip books here but there are so many metalics in the books I need something like fleet colours I think.
As far as mixing the small amount of paint I do not want this to cost you amthing more that the time that you have put into it so if you get the number I can do that here. I hope that you do not think that I am anxious about this I just did not know if you would be able to find the post if it got too far down being new to old gas.com.

thanks ward

oops forgot to list email wardzaharia@hotmail.com

Hey Ward,
Here are the two formula's.I thought I would post here for others to use.Formulas are for a quart and they are cumulative,not by parts.Your paint jobber can take this and break down in smaller quantities to see how it's going to look.I would want to mix small amount to check the color.The white is available in DCC also.Let me know how they work out.
Blue:
DMC900 62.3
DMC901 155.7
DMC904 440.7
DMC934 1081.7

Red:Has an SC price code-need to tell jobber.
DMC900 23.7
DMC931 271.0
DMC987 1114.1

Pat Anderton

Thanks pat for all the help. Do you have a story of where these numbers come from I am really interested in what you were able to do to get these numbers. I know you had said earlier that the red was the same colour as a 1955 chrysler. Did the codes that I had help or was it your prophet system. thanks again for helping me on this and I am going to do just as you said and have them mix a small amount and see what it looks like and I will get back to you on the results. I want to get these two pumps painted (frames are painted now) so that I an do the polishing and rubber glass ect in the winter.

ward

Pat thanks for posting the info, I've updated my copy of the book for further referance. If you ever run across any other companys undated color let us know. thanks Richard

...not to slam the Pump Restoration book, but...if you read the preface to the paint code section, it seems that quite a few of the codes weren't taken from actual oil company specs but were 'eyeballed' from other sources, and best guesses were made. Also, it seems that several of the codes are the same from one brand to another...not to mention that a few of the paint schemes pictured are incorrect...

...there is a vast WEALTH of great technical information on this website, graciously provided by fellow enthusiasts on their own time...a wonderful resource for collectors, both experienced and not-so...that said, I wish there was more of a voice from those of us who are absolute sticklers for authenticity, and want our pumps to look as though they were plucked from the station the day they were first installed and branded...no, I'm smarting-off at those who want to paint/customize their pumps their own way - it's a free country...I'm not trying to say one ideal is better than another - it's all subjective - but there are those of us who want their pumps dead-on authentic...

...anyway, I have tried, unsuccessfully, to get information regarding colors Gulf used over the years, as their orange and blue changed at least twice, and the colors spec'd in the Pump Restoration book are the ones used by Gulf in the late 1950's and 1960's...these colors are completely inappropriate for use when restoring a 1930 Tokheim 850 - in 1930 the orange was a little lighter and the blue was much darker...the man at Pittsburgh Paints (I figured Gulf HAD to use them at some point in their history, as they were both in Pittsburgh) with whom I corresponded was very nice, but had no information going back that far, and couldn't help...

...also, the Gulfoil Historical Society site was a tad flippant regarding such information, saying how collectors pay vast sums of money for this information, and don't "publish or broadcast their valuable property"...not very helpful, to say the least...

...at one point I even wrote Charles Whitworth, author of two books on Gulf Oil memorabilia, to inquire about the relevant information contained in several Gulf Station Standard Manuals he had featured in his book, only to discover that he had sold his collection and could not contact the buyer...he then followed with the less-than-helpful statement "any combination of blue, orange and white would be acceptable"(!)...not what I was hoping for at all from such an apparent authority, to say the least...and oh yeah, I still have that letter...

...Pat, if your contact at PPG indeed has old oil company paint specs archived in a color library, it seems to me if they could just make that information available to petroliana enthusiasts in the form of single-stage PPG codes (maybe on this forum!) it would be worth their while...this hobby gets bigger every day, and niche markets well-served make for faithful customers...just my two cents' worth...

...yeah, yeah, you do get a lot for two cents...

Hello Gulfiend and Ward,
I could go on for a long time about what all is involved in dealing with old paint colors.
I'll start the Esso colors first Ward. First of all, we had formula numbers. Were they original formula numbers matched to Esso specifications? I don't know. As I stated in my earlier post, I knew that the PPG color library has sprayout plaques that were matched to original company specifications,whether it be a car or a gas pump.That is why I called to see if they had any on these formula numbers.They do not always have these plaques. Once I found that they did I asked if any prophet readings had been done on these colors.There had been. The color library person told me that the red was a 1955 Chrysler color. I have found in past times that colors were often used in different applications-hence the Chrysler color used for the Esso color.
Many times there is what we call an offset color. That was the case of the white color for Ward. An offset color is created based on demand or popularity. It usually comes about after an original formulas tinting bases are discontinued. They will then compare the original color to their known data base to see if they can find a color that matches the original. In the days before color scanners, this was all done by human eye. The paint companies would not go to the trouble and expense of creating an offset unless the demand was there for it. Also there will usually be a description of the offset if it is not considered to be a good match to the original color (i.e. greener, bluer, darker).
As I tell people about our prophet, it only compares the scanned color to known colors in it's database. Also, some paint companies may have a tinting base that we don't have and so you do not get a good match.
I am lucky in my business in that I have an employee that has a great eye for color but unfortunately, he has gotten the reputation for being able to match almost anything. Seems that he spends the majority of his time matching pieces and parts that people bring in. We generally use the prophet to get a formula for a starting point and then always have to tint.

Gulfiend,
I understand wanting to have colors to original specs, but as I stated before, most of the original colors cannot even be made any more in todays paints.Hence,the prophet is a useful tool IF you have a sprayout of the original color, but once again the prophet does not give a guaranteed match.
In matching automobile paint we tell people that the prophet gives a blendable match(not a perfect match) 85% of the time.
We see times when the prophet does not give even a blendable match. We have had instances when we knew that the car was painted with another brand of paint and the only way to get a match was to put that brand of paint back on vehicle.
I will have to admit that I have never actually tried to see if I could find an old list of gasoline company colors through PPG. If I could find original PPG formula numbers,I could then check on whether color library has sprayout panels and get a prophet reading and have a starting place as stated before. As far as getting a dead match on a 1930's Gulf orange and blue, it's probably not going to happen.
About fifteen years ago I went to a local parts store that had been selling Dupont paint(UGH!!LOL!!) since the 40's. I did get a list of all major oil companies(and some I had never heard of), paint colors. They were formulated in Dulux straight enamel. I guess it's possible that some of these colors can still be made or that Dupont jobber could do like me and take original formula number and get an offset formula.
Well I hope that I haven't bored you with my "dollars" worth- LOL!. If I can be of help to anyone,please contact me.

Pat Anderton

[This message has been edited by puregas (edited 09-01-2005).]

Pat

Just a little update on this I did get the three colours mixed red white and blue. The jobber mixed me about a one quarter of a quart I think that he said that he just took the quart numbers and divided by 4. I have been looking at the colours for a while now. Me and my dad do our restorations together and he says that the colours look good to him. I think what I am going to do is take the advice of the ppg paint guru pat ( that is a mouth full)and do a shall spray out pannel. Thank you for the help on this pat much appreciated

ward