All,
While reading through posts trying to learn more about porcelain signs I have collected over the past few years, I have more questions than answers, hopefully someone can shed some light.
As an example, I have a Texaco Marine Lubricant sign. I believe it to be porcelain, it is curved and has 4 holes in each corner. It measures 16 1/4" wide by 12 3/4" tall. The same sign I have seen here has the holes located differently, date stamped and the dimensions are different. I believe they were called "pump signs or PPP"??
Biggest question I have is: Is my sign a fake/reproduction? My sign doesn't have a date either. I attached a pic (hopefully).
I appreciate any help.
Troy
Dang, I appreciate the quick reply.
What makes it a fake so I don't make the same mistake in the future? What should I look for or not look for to be sure next time because I've seen other signs (non Texaco) that look and feel the same as this one unlike the Hobby Lobby flimsy signs.
I sure don't want to collect fakes, no fun
Its fake nobody will post whats wrong with it you will need to talk to people
Hey Troy…there are a whole lot of “reasons” that some signs are fake. The older signs often used heavier base metal. The process for making porcelain signs are one color laid over another each fired separately. You can rub your fingers over the levels of enamel referred to as “shelving”. Many fakes don’t have that. Each original sign had a size. Many fakes are produced not true to the original size. I would refer you to some excellent books to read up on the porcelain sign manufacturing process and background on the different signage. I have attached photos of three that are excellent and other members can recommend others. There are a lot of fakes out there and we have all been duped sometime. I hope that helps.
Steve
It's nearly impossible to give you a full list of reasons why that one's fake. It's kind of like the Supreme Court and porn...we know it when we see it. I'm about 80% at spotting fakes off of pictures...maybe closer to 95% if I can hold the sign in person. But I'm still not perfect. This is after nearly 30 years of experience. Buy from reputable sellers (many are on this site) and do your best to educate yourself using the tools/books listed above. Stay away from ebay; nearly all of the porcelain signs on there are fake. Best of luck!
"Stay away from ebay" = good advice.
Thank you for all of your input and advice!! I will certainly read up on this more. I am not too upset about buying a fake but really want to learn more about the old petroliana. I have a humble collection of oil cans, tube repair kits etc... They collect dust on a display shelf in the garage but I enjoy the looks on peoples faces when they come by.
Thank you again for all of your help!!
Troy
Troy, I’m like you. To me it’s a hobby, not a business. I get plastic signs. I make a lot of stuff too. Just for fun for me. I’m in my early 60’s & collect what I grew up with. Never saw visible & clock pumps at stations. To each his own.
So that particular sign shows up a lot at flea markets here in west Michigan. You usually see them in a group with two different Gulf signs and maybe a Shell or Mobil. The fact that they are all the same size, they all seem to be based on rare signs, and as others have said the shelving is noticabley wrong, and multiple sellers at the same event have them for sale tells the whole story. One guy up here swears up and down they are real and totally with the $900 he's asking. He also uses the aging brick and the peroxide trick on them for added authenticity.
Hello all,
I accidently purchased a fake sign last year at a swap meet in Pleasanton at a Goodguys show/swap meet. I know 100% that the guy had a ton of original stuff, but the piece I bought was not vintage...and I should have noticed that the logo colors were reversed from the norm. It was distressed (chipped and rusted) and looked the part. So that's on me for not paying attention. I won't make that mistake on the color swap ever again (brands would NEVER let their logos be printed incorrectly). If he had told me that it wasn't an original, I would have bought my second pick sign that was actually a real vintage sign. He's in the picker business, so I know he knew it wasn't vintage. I take away that I only spent $80 on a good lesson learned. Money well spent.
In the image DTimeKW (the originator of this thread) posted, my take is the reflection showed that the surface is smooth...when it should have shown a little bit of a ridge where the layers are fired separately. It also doesn't have steel rivets around the mounting holes to reduce chipping the porcelain when mounting it.
The thing that stands out to me is the intricate fine lines of detail, like the thin black outlines on the birds and boats. I could be wrong, but I don't know if the old porcelain signs were made with that much intricate detail. It seems like those fine lines would be very hard to produce in porcelain with past processes.
IMPORTANT PLEASE READ……..
I have been a collector for a long long time, and I would like to make something clear to everyone (as a learning experience).
Real signs can have shelving or no shelving. Period
Fake signs can have shelving or no shelving. Period
Shelving does NOT validate a sign’s authenticity.
What does help is knowing which signs should have shelving and which ones shouldn’t. It also depends on age sometimes. There are numerous real porcelain pump plates that have almost no shelving at all. There are also numerous fakes that have shelving when their real life counterparts didn’t. There are also numerous fakes that don’t have shelving when the real versions did. (some real Sinclair, Pure and Texaco PPP’s for example have almost no shelving at all. Some fake Coca Cola signs have serious shelving)
I am speaking from years of experience. I am not claiming to know the authenticity of all signs, as India is producing them by the hundreds or thousands each day. But one thing I can tell you is that shelving, wether present or not, doesn’t mean squat, unless you know what sign your dealing with and what the original should be.
Regards,
Steve
I'll post a few comments to help the readers of this thread. I'm NOT the authority nor do I want to be, but this is what I have learned over the years. I started collecting about 40 years ago. I made an attempt to buy American Porcelain in Dallas (in about 2005) that had been in business since the late 30's. They made all of the New Jersey transit signs. I spend several days in Dallas talking to the employees/managers who had been in the business 30 years. I watched them make signs and asked how signs were made in the 40's vs. 90's.
This is what was taught to me at the factory:
Old signs (before computer graphics) were "hand cut stencils" with an exacto knife. This means if you look close and the sign you are looking at has 2 - "O"s, each "O" will be slightly different because it was hand cut. Computerized graphics will make both "O"s exactly the same. This test will catch a LOT of signs.
Look at curved/arched letters that go around the perimeter of a 42" sign. Are the letters spaced properly? When "fakes" are made, these perimeter letters are hand spaced (copied and dragged) in place. In most cases, the spacing is slightly off, the angle is slightly off on a couple of letters, and it looks like an ugly sweater. You can't quite telll what looks wrong, but something does.
Barometric pressure effect firing and boiling point of frit (the compound fired to make porcelain), therefore "color" which are not stock colors are very hard to match. It is not like mixing paint, because there is no paint in porcelain and the color doesn't reveal itself until after the sign is fired. This is why the green T in the Texaco logo is so hard to match. Or the blue in the Magnolia signs are so hard to match.
These porcelain sign companies who were contracted in the 40's from these huge oil companies didn't put out junk. Although the signs were "production" signs, they had quality control and high standards in place.
Summary:
If you take all of the obvious reasons, comments listed above, and apply some of my knowledge, it will be hard to get burned. AND lastly, unless you know the seller and he will not guarantee your satisfaction DO NOT buy from a picture because you can't always examine everything.