Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums General Petroliana Discussion Guts or Gutless...

Paddy--Thats a pretty neat photo! Wonder what kind of delivery rate they got from that one!

I display my pumps in two ways;either gutted and restored as correctaly as possible or as unrestored and in "as found",not necessarily origanal,condition.I do that because I prefer the clean,uncluttered,painted and polished presentation that a gutted pump will provide while also appreciating the appeal that an unrestored,unmolested pump that shows "how they did it"can provide.I do that because my display facility is open to the public and I want to promote our hobby by appealing to different interests by showing them that anything works if they are happy with it. Just my preferences and thoughts after years of showing my collection to the general public. If I'm going to restore it,I'll gut it. But in some cases I won't restore it and display it as found to tell the story of how it was.

I will Definately disagree that pumps are getting rarer every day, they are actually getting found and restored now more than ever, I don't know of anyone that is destroying pumps to make them rare. Tokhiem 39's, Wayne 60's, M&S 80's, etc. will NEVER be rare pumps, there will be more of them around in collections in 10 years than there are now as more are discovered and restored.

I said most people in our hobby, not generically. Obviously most in this hobby do not think gas pumps are junk.

Out of all the cars restored nationally in the last ten years how many do you think wind up in museums?? A VERY SMALL percentage. You want to meticulously restore a car to put it in a museum to preserve a slice of American culture?? That's great. The same can be said for a gas pump, you want to preserve it to accurate historical standards for museum quality?? That's wonderful.

With the deepest respect please don't try to convince me my Tokheim 39s, MS 80's, and National A38's are ruining a slice of Americana because I didn't keep the guts in them. And quite humbly I submit, that most people in our hobby are not going to give me more money for them when I resell them because I dropped extra cash on the resto to keep the heavy motors in.

I agree with KZ100.Rare pumps?Not really with Ebay and this site sitting here;Rare?Simply a function of money.I'll refer to my earlier post in which the word "rare"was never used.I have some common pumps and some uncommon ones.The "rarity"of a pump never enters my mind when I'm deciding whrther or not to gut and restore it.My decision is made depending on how I plan to work the pump into my display layout,which is open to the public. Works for me;may not for you. As always:Do as you wish!

KEEP IT CIVIL, NOT PERSONAL.

Well, this subject has gotten some attention, more attention honestly than I thought it would. It is and always has been up to the owner of a pump as to whether a pump is as complete as found, gutted or missing parts added. Like some here, I worked in a station during the 60's (db, helped Fred Flintstone pump gas at the first "Sinclair" station). Not one of the pumps had all of it's original equiptment after 3-5 years. Motors burned up, doors were beat to ... well beat up pretty bad, nozzles kicked from here to there or slammed into their "respected holders". And it wasn't always my fault,.... no matter what you have heard.... the "new guy" always gets all the blame. We painted using extra paint, using rattlecans and brushes. Those pumps had to weigh at least 50#s more at the end of their lives than brand new because of all the extra paint "poured" on them. Seeing photos of "found" pumps shared here, the places I worked for weren't the only ones trying to "stretch" the life of a pump by using "bailing wire and spit". Hopefully we can all enjoy all pumps; Whether custom, fantasy, semi-custom, restored, semi-restored and my personal fav the unrestored. We saved a pump from Thunder or his rightful name; Mr Junkman, Sanitary Engineer, Mr. Stinky..... LOL (Pick on me when I'm sick will ya)
Just enjoy our hobby and keep those pumps out of Jeff's hands.

Bowser--I don't think anyone has gotten too personal here. This has been a very interesting discussion on both side of the fence for a lot of varied reasons! Very healthy discussion that certainly makes me examine my own motives when I next restore another pump! I try to do about 2 per year and I have a backlog of about 10!!
I always gut the pumps out for a lot of personal reasons but given the next time that I do a historically correct pump,,,,,,, I just may weigh in on the side of the opposition!
I imagine that the work load would increase dramatically, but sometime we are driven by financial reasons and time constraints rather than the historical significance of the task about to be undertaken! Its always good to have a conversation that drives us to examine our own motives!!

Of course you dont... Its not your name, that Bob Richards, has drug through the mud!!!! LOL

Bob, I'm glad that you're back to your nomal self....

As for my opinion, (as if you have all waited for this) 36B & Wayne 60 is the line. Anything more, should be kept complete.

As for cars, it was once thought that changing the wheels, would not affect the value. Again, in my opinion, there is a line to be drawn. Certainly, a Boss 302, is deserving of its original wheels.

This topic will be highly charged with personal opinions. I'm sorry that I didn't involved sooner....

this is a topic that could never be resolved........ I really don't think it matters and in 25 years from now all the values, practices, herniated disks, and opinions will still always be the same - unchanged and unresolved.

Yep, I agree.
2 years after Jack did the 2nd pump book he still get's complaints cause there are No Foreign pumps in the book.
& Bob Richards had a Supercharger installed in his Mud Buggy !

I have restored a lot of pumps – most of them I have gutted.

Now, the last two pumps I have restored the guts were left in them. The first was a t-39 that was New Old Stock and was never used – it sits in my living room with all the workings in it. The second is that Bennett 756 I just finished – it too has the guts in it.

What I have just come to conclude:

If the pump is complete and has not been messed with inside and has all its original parts – and they are in working order – keep them in it, sand blast, and paint. If not gut them.

I NEVER used B-3C for paint, only enamel because that is close to original. I have started using correct colors and paint schemes and correct SIZE globes originals if I can afford it. I have been extremely happy with my latest pumps that are set up original and have their parts inside. I mean really how often do you move the pumps around? Really – you don’t.

I have two Wayne 60’s that are next – one is complete and the other has been modified on the inside. I will be doing these as a SET in Tioga and Tioga Ethel. Because one has been modified on the inside and these will be a set I will go ahead and strip the guts. I will not be putting the showcase items on them because that is not original. I am still looking for the correct color scheme for Tioga and if I can find it I will proceed with the restorations.


AGAIN:
If they are original on the inside, work or can be made to work again, and the insides are in good working order – keep the guts - if not because they were either messed with, or freeze cracked/destroyed - or modified with new or non-original pumps / parts then pull them out.

Travis
Topeka, Kansas

DO AS YOU PLEASE -- Don't be steered by anyone . I keep the guts in certain pumps because I like the way they are built- most others are gutted. "I move my pumps all the time" I like to buy, sell, trade, restore, and just go out to the shop and look around. I re-arange here and there. Heck if I leave a pump in one position too long the darn rats get in there and make a home. I am planning on taking an original pump that still runs and mounting it on a small portable tank only big enough to fit under the pump on wheels. This is a Bennett 646 that came out of a barn still pumping . The small tank will have a clear see through filler tube so one will be able to watch the mineral spirits flow both through the siteglass and fillerneck. The computer will then really function and ding. So in this case I can say it is a real live working pump . SO THERE !!!! LOL Every other 646 that I own (about 10) is or will be GUTTED .

Anyway this is my two cents worth.
Take care and GUT AWAY or NOT it is up to you ,
Rob

I have no pumps so this thread is pretty easy for me to just kind of watch impartially.

I must say for a man pretty much on his own here I admire your conviction in the face of such overwhelming majority, Mark.

But if there is one thing I have pulled from this, it would seem that most people are "swayed" by the "most people" argument. I have to wonder, if all of a sudden there was this movement toward correct and complete (and this a hypothetical of course) and restoration of pumps for the preservation of historical authenticity (especially if prices moved accordingly)......how many people would all of a sudden start changing their views because of the "most people" argument.....that's what everyone else is doing!
It's easy to fall in line, especially if the arguments work to our advantage, but to do what YOU REALLY WANT is a quality of leaders and trend setters. I can see the arguments for both sides of the fence and I really take no position either way, I just thought it interesting to notice "the band wagon" effect at work.

EXACTLY...

...'having no pumps' certainly hasn't kept others out of the discussion...what you call 'conviction' surely others who disagree with my position would call 'pigheadedness'...

...I enjoy healthy debate...but statements like 'pumps aren't getting rarer' aren't logical and therefore aren't going to do anything to change my mind...they're not being made anymore - and today, somewhere, at least one perfectly good old gas pump was scrapped - ergo, they're becoming more rare...the declining number of unmolested pumps left in relation to the increasing number of collectors means they would be harder to find...math doesn't lie...if they were common they'd be a helluva lot cheaper than they are...

...and if you have rats where you display your restored pumps...

...Dave, of course everyone would 'follow the crowd' (remember the Macarena?) ...they wouldn't want to see the value of their collections suffer in relation to the historically accurate, complete pumps...what gets me is how defensive the 'gutless' crowd is...it's as if they're worried that any discussion about the topic threatens their investment...also, not only in this post, but any topic where personal taste or method of 'restoration' is discussed, how they keep chirping "it's up to you" - I never said it wasn't...and it's a rather meaningless phrase, and doesn't make you right or further your cause...using that rationale, you could justify anything: you could paint your pumps with marmalade, curb your dog on them, or stack them like cordwood and sleep on them - it's up to you!