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#160933 - Fri Nov 20 2009 07:20 AM Re: Shell Kerosene flange sign [Re: roadrelics]
Ohio Oil Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri May 23 2003
Loc: Northwest Ohio
Originally Posted By: roadrelics

I know some will say, what about 10 years down the road when some newbie wants to buy this sign.....it will be no different if they buy an undated restored oil can that is not marked....or if they buy a total repo oil can with the date removed.....peoploe including t-ray remove these dates & resell as originals........i have seen many signs that have been conveintly scratched down in the right corner among other places to remove the date.....the oil cans are even easier as they are marked on the seam......


To me part of your defense of not marking a RECREATION is that it's no different than buying an unmarked repop or the fact that crooks rub the marks off anyway. What I'm saying is that's a non issue. No matter how sophisticated we get at putting marks on them the crooks will figure out a way to get em off. Whether or not to date a recreation has nothing to do with what the crooks will do.

You keep bringing the argument back to repops...show me where that's the point I was majoring on.

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#160936 - Fri Nov 20 2009 07:34 AM Re: Shell Kerosene flange sign [Re: Ohio Oil]
roadrelics Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Sat Dec 21 2002
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota ...USA
i have not defended not marking re-creations & have said in the repo sign section that if i ever make a re creation again i will mark it... refer to the locked thread there.. http://www.oldgas.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=160608#Post160608 .......what i do say is use common sense, read books, look at ebay, talk to people, but be very informed before you buy something & don't blame your mistakes on somebody else & take resposibilty for your own actions.......I'm out of here, to the golf course.........


Edited by roadrelics (Fri Nov 20 2009 07:57 AM)
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www.roadrelics.com


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#160951 - Fri Nov 20 2009 08:43 AM Re: Shell Kerosene flange sign [Re: Jarvis]
gasoildude Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Mon Nov 29 2004
Loc: Oneida IL USA
Originally Posted By: Jarvis
I am with Ohio oil, if you make it DATE IT!



THIS SUMS IT ALL UP RIGHT HERE!!!!!!! I AGREE 100% WITH YOU THERE JOHN!!!!!
_________________________
Wanted Owens Motor Oil & Mobiloil Gargoyle.
Brad Ralston & my website is
www.petrobarn.com

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#160972 - Fri Nov 20 2009 10:28 AM Re: Shell Kerosene flange sign [Re: hotcidr]
UN1203 Offline
New Member

Registered: Wed Nov 18 2009
Loc: New Mexico USA
Every time one of these sign makers produces a "Repop or Limited edition run" without dating it. They are devaluing all of our collections. It is no different than counterfeiting there is absolutely no reason not to date a repop sign, except for future fraud.
_________________________
Hauling Gas

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#160989 - Fri Nov 20 2009 03:30 PM Re: Shell Kerosene flange sign [Re: Ohio Oil]
hotcidr Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri Jul 27 2001
Loc: Carpinteria, Ca. USA
Since I started this subject I'm requesting that the moderators now end, remove, delete it. This has gotten WAY too personal and not in line with what we need to read and review. No one can benefit for this to keep going on.
Ray....the real Ray

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#160992 - Fri Nov 20 2009 03:56 PM Re: Shell Kerosene flange sign [Re: hotcidr]
Bob Richards Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Tue Feb 22 2005
Loc: Longview, WA
IMO, as a collector I have an obligation to "look out" for future collectors. Whether that collector starts collecting 5,10 years from now or starts in 10 minutes. I think, that thought is pretty uniform by the replies generated by this thread. "Let the buyer beware" will always be something that future and present collectors will deal with. But, if it is in our power, lets "lift a hand" and make it easier for the next "generation" of collectors. It would be nice if the children and grandchildren of those on this site wouldn't have to "cut through the chaff" to find an original item. Reproductions and fantasy items do have a place in this hobby, just mark the damn things. Real easy to do. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, just stating what I think is an oblivious statement. No matter what one's items are worth, they shouldn't have to worry about "scumbags" that are just out to defraud. Or at least, again, that is MY OPINION. By the way, I don't think any of the regular members here as "scumbags", I know that there maybe some here that think the "scumbag" label fits me at times and they would be right. LOL

T-Ray, if you read this I don't know you. I do think you are just out to "rip people off". You could care less about the history or the preservation of gas and oil related items. I do believe that sooner or later you will, rip off the wrong person and you will be sued or worse. I don't want you harmed, but I do want you gone.... Because I don't see you being honest with those that buy from you. Again my opinion, no one else's.
_________________________
Looking for Tide Water/ Tide Water-Associated/ Tidewater items

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#160999 - Fri Nov 20 2009 04:31 PM Re: Shell Kerosene flange sign [Re: Bob Richards]
Seth Robbins Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Thu Dec 21 2000
Loc: Guthrie, OK. 73044
I think a point that many on here are missing is that the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of reproduction and/or fantasy items that are available are made not by collectors, purists, hobbyists, etc but by just your average run-of-the-mill businessman that is looking for a profit. Take a company like Ande Rooney. They've been making small porcelains for 30 years!!! They don't mark or date, they just put a sticker on the back with the history of the company & logo being used. For as long as they've I've been around this hobby/business, I've occassionally witnessed people spending original type dollars on Ande Rooney signs, which is silly since the back doesn't have porcelain on it at all and there's not shelving (just screen-print over white porcelain). They are the single biggest producer of repo porcelain signs in the world. But, they aren't the problem. People like me who made repo parts, decals & globes for restorations aren't the problem. Guys like Darryl aren't the problem. Guys who either a) make reproductions and then age them in a pre-meditated attempt to get original prices for repo items -AND- b)people who take the Andy Rooney type signs, shoot them with a bb-gun and throw vinegar on them to age them.....THESE ARE YOUR PROBLEMS. You guys can say, "if you make it, date it" til Jesus returns, and it's not going to make the problem stop, heck it really isn't going to help.

Has anybody stopped to ask themselves, why this is even a problem to begin with? The answer is, because this type of collectible got SO POPULAR and SO EXPENSIVE!!!!! That's the paradox, conundrum, damned if you do/damned if you don't situation this hobby and other collectible hobbies will always face. You can't have your cake and eat it too!?!?!?! As the values of your collections has risen, so has the amount of fraud that goes on in the advertising collectibles hobby! If this stuff wasn't so rare, desirable, and valuable, there would be ZERO incentive for crooks to counterfeit & deceive.

The last thing I'll address is this type of statement: "the only reason you wouldn't mark a product is for future deception". I call BS on that. I made literally thousands of pumps parts & decals, repo pumps and other decor and the majority of the time, there was no de-notation that the items were made in modern times. 99% of the stuff was so glaringly new, it never occurred to me to mark it. Heck, there are members of this VERY FORUM that COMPLAINED about the merchandise that WAS MARKED!!! And I think they had just as good of a point. A lot of guys didn't like to put a pair of pump faces or a globe on pump that said NEW, REPRODUCTION or 2001 on it. They said, it queered up their restoration, and really if you think about, when's the last time you saw a new bumper on a '67 Corvette that had REPOP stamped on it??

All I'm saying is, what happened here on this thread....basically the "outing" of a major violater helps the 10,000 people that look on here and that's about as good as your going to do. As long as the temptation is there (i.e. $$$) there will be people that either counterfeit OR doctor up repos made with good intentions. How do you mark something well enough that somebody can't alter it and make it look real AND still be able to sell it??

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#161005 - Fri Nov 20 2009 05:14 PM Re: Shell Kerosene flange sign [Re: Seth Robbins]
KZ1000 Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Sun Oct 21 2007
Loc: Mass
This whole thread does confirm that Reproduction SIGNS, not pump parts, pieces, etc. are a problem whether they are marked or not, They will always be tampered with and used to decieve, My opinion has always been, and especially after reading this thread that Repro SIGNS are NOT good for the collectors of original Signs. Again, dating them is not the answer, stop producing them, There are way too many already.
_________________________
"Remember, history that is forgotten is doomed to repeat itself!"

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#161012 - Fri Nov 20 2009 05:43 PM Re: Shell Kerosene flange sign [Re: Seth Robbins]
roadrelics Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Sat Dec 21 2002
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota ...USA
very well said Seth & with class......in a perfect world all of the repos , fantasy items would be marked....I would be willing to bet that 90% of the repos are not marked , that doesn't make it right but that is reality....

That would be a great idea KZ., our originals would sky rocket in value.....


My first collectibles were neon clocks & other advertising clocks... i watched them increase in value for years & then a few people started reproducing them & it just killed the market for them...I've got a couple hundred originals that are worth half of what they were & it doesnt bother me to much as i have a great love for them & don't plan on selling...I never did condemn or hold it against the people who did these repos as they did not do it to defraud, however once in the wrong hands people were defrauded & thats the problem, the people, not the clocks....it again comes down to knowledge & common sense

the coin market is now being flooded with undated repos from China.... i can tell you one thing if i decide to buy coins i will surely do my homework & chances are very good i will not get ripped off...if it happens that i do, i will learn from it & take resonsibilty for my actions.....

what really gets my goat though are people who set up high on their pedastal hiding behind their personnal beliefs of what is right & wrong, condeming most everyone else, then shamelessly do the same things & even worse....






Edited by roadrelics (Fri Nov 20 2009 06:20 PM)
_________________________



www.roadrelics.com


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#161035 - Fri Nov 20 2009 07:52 PM Re: Shell Kerosene flange sign [Re: roadrelics]
freddiesgarage Offline
Active Member

Registered: Tue Oct 16 2007
Loc: Missoula, Montana
Not much has been said about eBay and what they might possible be able do to slow down re-production stuff sold as original. If you go into eBay and click on "Merchandise & Memorabilia" then go to "Signs" as an example, the first thing is asks is "Original or Re-production"? If you go into eBay and click on "Gas & Oil", none of those categories asks "Original or Reproduction" !!
If a seller was to receive "negative feedback" from a buyer due to misrepresentation of a item, there should be a penalty given against that seller with even more strict penalties in the future like not allowing them to sell again on eBay. Would this stop the problem we are faced with? No, but it might help slow it down together with other controls. eBay is making lots of profit on items sold on their site that are misrepresented, I really don't think they want to be in that type of business for the long haul. I wonder if any of the eBay top executives have read all this thread??? I think they might be very surprised on what honest buyers have to say.

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#161039 - Fri Nov 20 2009 09:38 PM Re: Shell Kerosene flange sign [Re: freddiesgarage]
Ohio Oil Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Fri May 23 2003
Loc: Northwest Ohio
freddie: I think you make a valid point about ebay. They are certainly making their fair share of money on all this. Seems they are not willing to police their own auctions...don't want to stop the revenue stream.

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#161044 - Fri Nov 20 2009 09:51 PM Re: Shell Kerosene flange sign [Re: Ohio Oil]
KZ1000 Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Sun Oct 21 2007
Loc: Mass
Yes, But ebay is only an auction site, Like any auction anywhere, buyers must know what they are buying. It is not ebays responsibility to determine what is real or repro, just like Any auctioneer will not always guarantee what they are selling, that is why they have previews, for the buyer to determine what they think of an item. It has been said on here Many times, BUYER BEWARE
_________________________
"Remember, history that is forgotten is doomed to repeat itself!"

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#161049 - Fri Nov 20 2009 09:58 PM Re: Shell Kerosene flange sign [Re: KZ1000]
THE AMERICAN GARAGE Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Wed Jun 02 2004
Loc: PECONIC BAY, L.I., NY, USA
GOOD NIGHT IRENE! wink

(HEY I HAD TO SAY SOMETHING HERE EVEN IF IT WAS DUMB....)
_________________________
DOC @ THE AMERICAN GARAGE

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#161055 - Sat Nov 21 2009 01:43 AM Re: Shell Kerosene flange sign [Re: THE AMERICAN GARAGE]
67Chev4X4 Offline
Petro Enthusiast

Registered: Thu Aug 14 2008
Loc: Cheyenne, WY
Roadrelics, I did not want to imply Flory was doing anything wrong only that I had seen him trying to sell the sign. That's how dumb I am about signs I didn't know even the size of them. I did work for Flory's dad over 50 yrs. ago. He had a shoe store here in Cheyenne. Flory is a respected businessman here. His body and paint man that works on his pumps and other things was my instuctor out to the community college and helped me restore my first pump. I was just trying to point out you were not the only one to reproduce the United Service sign. Mitch

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#161059 - Sat Nov 21 2009 07:03 AM Re: Shell Kerosene flange sign [Re: 67Chev4X4]
roadrelics Offline
Veteran Member

Registered: Sat Dec 21 2002
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota ...USA
I am with you 67chev4x4...Flory is a good guy & certainly no fraud....there are many people who are repoing the neon United Service,,here is a double sided one on ebay right now

http://vi.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...ie&caz.html


the question is he committing fraud??? i say no , he says in the ad that its a repo.....
somebody years ago repoed this 36'' neon United Service in porcelain, they are very well done & difficult to tell between the original...There are ways to tell, but if you don't know, Beware...there is also a repo 4' Ford oval porcelain neon with the original makers name on it....it is an excellent repo , but again there are ways to tell, Buyer Beware....
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www.roadrelics.com


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