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#172731 Sun Jan 31 2010 09:25 AM
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Anybody watching? Signs, and pumps are still going pretty high

Please use For Sale forums to sell

Please - NO offers to Buy or Sell in this forum category

Statements such as, "I'm thinking about selling this." are considered an offer to sell.
Jerry #172757 Sun Jan 31 2010 11:54 AM
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They always do but does any ownership ever change hands?


Collect small Oklahoma Oil Co.'s 1920's-1940's. Barnsdall, Cushing, Eason, Marland, etc.

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Shame guys consign stuff and then bid on it or have a friend bid and "buy it back" or "shill it". I am sure there was plenty of that going on.
Not say it happens a lot but it does happen.


Looking for anything from Hoosier Pete, Platolene 500 and Red Bird.
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I'm glad you guys pointed that out.I think the saying is "you had better there to protect it".I think it goes on more than one might think,particularly with high dollar stuff.

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It is a shame that one has to think twice about auctions on every level. Looking at sending some of mine to one and that is the worry, either have someone bid or sell low. It just seems wrong.


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As long as the consignor is going to have to pay the applicable premium, I don't have a huge problem with it, OCCASIONALLY. A lot of depends on the consignment structure....if it's a big estate or collection and one guy owns it all, it's probably not going to go on very often, simply because his volume of items will allow him to average out over the entire group of lots. On the other hand, if you've got a bunch of guys that are putting up 10-20 items, you better bet most aren't going to let a $10,000 globe go for $5,000, even if it costs them $500 to the auctioneer & $500 for buyer's premium. Whether you agree with that or not, rest assured it goes on at 100% of every "produced", high-profile auction whether it's done through the internet, a buddy in the crowd, over the phone, or as an "absentee" bid.

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WOW, with that said thank god you are out of the auction business, Any auctioneer that allows that ought to lose their license, I do believe there are laws, legal or ethical, that covers that.


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Originally Posted By: KZ1000
WOW, with that said thank god you are out of the auction business, Any auctioneer that allows that ought to lose their license, I do believe there are laws, legal or ethical, that covers that.


Good Luck ever trying to Prove it. It's just part of the Game.....


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Originally Posted By: Esse's Garage
Originally Posted By: KZ1000
WOW, with that said thank god you are out of the auction business, Any auctioneer that allows that ought to lose their license, I do believe there are laws, legal or ethical, that covers that.


Good Luck ever trying to Prove it. It's just part of the Game.....


Yes, but there are Reputable Auctioneers that will not allow it.


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Originally Posted By: KZ1000
Originally Posted By: Esse's Garage
Originally Posted By: KZ1000
WOW, with that said thank god you are out of the auction business, Any auctioneer that allows that ought to lose their license, I do believe there are laws, legal or ethical, that covers that.


Good Luck ever trying to Prove it. It's just part of the Game.....


Yes, but there are Reputable Auctioneers that will not allow it.


They would never know if you had a buddy or brother in-law there as a Bidder.....


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No KZ100 there are reputable auctioneers that wish it didn't happen, that do what they can to keep it to a minimum, but cannot do one single solitary thing to stop it. All anybody has to do, is have a friend buy the merchandise. Then, the consignor and his buddy settle up after the auction is over. If you believe that there's an auctioneer out there that can stop that from happening, tell Santa & the Tooth Fairy hello for me the next time you see them.

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Also, I'll say it again, as long as that consignor is having to pay just like everybody else, than where's the legal rub??? Now, recognize that I said legal, as far as ethically, sure it can get shady if you don't be vigilant about it as an auctioneer or producer.

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I know I wouldn't trust your auction company now, What you are saying is you have no problem with it as long as you get their buyers premium and sellers commission, basically screwing the honest guy that is at your auction trying to bid on an item.

Jason, my issue is not that it could happen behind the scenes, but the Auctioneers know who consigns and knows if that person is bidding on his own item, That is just Wrong!


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Originally Posted By: KZ1000
WOW, with that said thank god you are out of the auction business, Any auctioneer that allows that ought to lose their license, I do believe there are laws, legal or ethical, that covers that.


KZ100, with all due respect, you know nothing about me or what I went through trying to produce a good auction. Anybody that's ever played in the auction game on the top-end can attest, guys tend to crack and do stupid things when you are dealing with their money. I've literally had consignors puking in the bathrooms or so drunk they couldn't stand up because they were so freaked out.

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Originally Posted By: KZ1000
I know I wouldn't trust your auction company now, What you are saying is you have no problem with it as long as you get their buyers premium and sellers commission, basically screwing the honest guy that is at your auction trying to bid on an item.

Jason, my issue is not that it could happen behind the scenes, but the Auctioneers know who consigns and knows if that person is bidding on his own item, That is just Wrong!


That's not what I said at all. Go back & read. I said I don't have a HUGE problem with it, OCCASIONALLY. I'd like to see you put a $20,000 globe in an auction, then I'd like to see your face when it stalled out at around $9500. For a $1900 hicky, you can take it back home. Some guys man up, and chalk it up to the fact they gambled & lost. Some guys have their buddy buy it back for them. Also, auctioneers know who consigns yes, but unless it's the consignor himself CLEARLY bidding CONSISTENTLY on their own items, things are happening so fast, you really don't know who's buying or bidding on what.

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Doesn't the law state an auctioneer has to announce if the consignee is going to bid on his own items? Having a friend bid on a consignees item is called shill bidding.

It happens and you just have to remember when you go to an auction whether it's online or in person you have an idea of what you want to give for an item and bid to that number.

This type of stuff has been going on for years! I personally don't like it but nothing anyone can do about it.


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Originally Posted By: Jarvis
Doesn't the law state an auctioneer has to announce if the consignee is going to bid on his own items? Having a friend bid on a consignees item is called shill bidding.

It happens and you just have to remember when you go to an auction whether it's online or in person you have an idea of what you want to give for an item and bid to that number.

This type of stuff has been going on for years! I personally don't like it but nothing anyone can do about it.


John...not being an auctioneer, I'm not sure if that's a law or not, but I'm betting it'd pretty hard to enforce or prove, unless there was video evidence. As far as shill bidding, that's correct, but I believe that's what it's called when the intention is simply to push the price higher, without the intent to buy back.

You are right that this stuff has been going on for years, and now with all of the new forms of online bidding, there's NO WAY you can completely keep this from happening. Heck, a guy could sign up for online bidding and pre-bid their items or even better yet, they could sit there with an iphone or blackberry and bid away. Like you said, as a legit buyer (which I attended probaby 10x as many auctions as a buyer than as a promoter) all you can do is know what YOUR limit is and quit when it surpasses that.

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THE AUCTION HAS NO WAY TO KNOW WHO ALL THE BIDDERS ARE.THEY CAN HAVE A RESERVE AUCTION.JUST KNOW YOUR NUMBERS AND BE HAPPY IF YOU WIN AT THAT AMOUNT OR LESS!

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Well said Mark


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The first IG auction I went to 10 yrs or so I sat beside a dealer who had several things in the auction and he bought some of the items back because they did not bring enough. When I bought my Beeline globe in Columbus several years ago I had a friend sitting in the back of the auction watching for me and he told me the owner of the globe had bid on it at least once. It was alright because it was still less than I was willing to pay for it although it cost me at least several hundred dollars more. It may not be intentional but the auctioneer makes more money.

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People attend a "NO RESERVE" auction for the purpose of possibly getting a deal, If somebody consigns a $20,000 globe to a "NO RESERVE" auction, they know very well that it will sell for the final price regardless.
If they are worried about getting a certain amount of that globe, then put it in a "RESERVE " auction, where they are not screwing with the public.
All I know is when I go to bed at night I can sleep well.


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Originally Posted By: 67Chev4X4
The first IG auction I went to 10 yrs or so I sat beside a dealer who had several things in the auction and he bought some of the items back because they did not bring enough. When I bought my Beeline globe in Columbus several years ago I had a friend sitting in the back of the auction watching for me and he told me the owner of the globe had bid on it at least once. It was alright because it was still less than I was willing to pay for it although it cost me at least several hundred dollars more. It may not be intentional but the auctioneer makes more money.


Iowa Gas does advertise and it's in their policy description that they do allow buybacks. It has always been that way. Most won't agree with the policy but they are very upfront, out in the open regarding the buyback policy. I think it is more tolerable to be honest about the situation.


Collect small Oklahoma Oil Co.'s 1920's-1940's. Barnsdall, Cushing, Eason, Marland, etc.

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on the other end of the spectrum, i have heard & seen high end buyers collude together, one of them gets his choice at the auction, the other gets next choice & so on,......this is so they don't run each other up on the items......this is illegal also & terrible for the consignor....

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You know the old saying... you have no friends during an auction. LOL

I don't mind a friend bidding on an item i want. I figure who ever wants to pay more will win it.

Remember guys when you go to an auction you have to know what you want to pay for an item and if you get it cheaper great... if you don't get it... no big deal.


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Put me in the minority catagory with KZ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;Ron

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Originally Posted By: KZ1000
People attend a "NO RESERVE" auction for the purpose of possibly getting a deal, If somebody consigns a $20,000 globe to a "NO RESERVE" auction, they know very well that it will sell for the final price regardless.
If they are worried about getting a certain amount of that globe, then put it in a "RESERVE " auction, where they are not screwing with the public.
All I know is when I go to bed at night I can sleep well.


KZ100....I understand what you are saying, and in a perfect world that's they way it would be. I hate to be the one that shatters your confidence, but believe me, there are items at EVERY AUCTION, regardless of how it's advertised (Reserve or Absolute), that eventually end up back in the same collection they came from. I would never in a million years, embarrass anybody or throw anybody under the bus, but I could site specific examples at just about ALL the auctions I've ever attended. The crazy thing is, most of the regular consignors to the big auctions are also some of the biggest bidders at those auctions, and I don't mean on their stuff, I mean, they are big-time buyers & dealers who throw 20-30 items in a sale just to make it interesting or to cover trip expenses.

Along the lines of what roadrelics is saying, I've seen that many times before. I've also seen the hobby's "power-brokers" letting it be known that they doubt a certain items' authenticity JUST to throw the other bidders off the trail....then they end up purchasing it over the phone OR web and WHAM! it's the next big $20,000 discovery. Also...have you ever wondered, when you are at a sale, and there are supposedly 4 or 5 "phone bidders" all bidding feverishly against the crowd...how do you do you know there's anybody on the line at all? How do you know those 4 or 5 "phone bidders" are simply a safeguard so that top-end item will get the necessary action? What if there's ONE guy who called in a $20,000 bid or he's there and he LET IT BE KNOWN that he will go $20,000 and the crowd doesn't have the stomach to drive him to $20,000....I'm just saying, 99% of the items you see come across the block at any big auction are changing hands the right way, but all I'm saying is, you cannot say definitively that you know for fact there isn't at least a little monkey-business going whether the auctioneer knows about it or not. Like I said....at a dead person's estate sale, that's one thing, but a consignment auction is another. There are just far too many ways to get your stuff back with NOBODY knowing but you....all I was pointing out was, if that person is being penalized 20% for doing it, then you can better bet it's happening on no more than 1 in a 100 lots.

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This is an interesting topic. Wouldnt it be better for all concerned to allow the seller to bid on his own items and be upfront about it? The auctioneer could say "got $1500 from the seller, do I hear $1600? That would at least lessen shill bids, and everyone could know the seller is bidding up his item. People could then decide if they want to bid higher, or essentially "punish" the seller by not bidding. I know it wouldnt eliminate the shenanagians, but think it would help and be fairer.
John


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Originally Posted By: Vermonter
This is an interesting topic. Wouldnt it be better for all concerned to allow the seller to bid on his own items and be upfront about it? The auctioneer could say "got $1500 from the seller, do I hear $1600? That would at least lessen shill bids, and everyone could know the seller is bidding up his item. People could then decide if they want to bid higher, or essentially "punish" the seller by not bidding. I know it wouldnt eliminate the shenanagians, but think it would help and be fairer.
John


John....interesting idea, but again, a seller can easily get their item back without anybody knowing....their punishment is having to add another 20% to the the item they already own & paid for. Still in all, if you go to an auction with 500 lots, I assure, at least 495 of them are going to new homes.

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Auctions regulated under Uniform Commercial Code (UCC)laws. I believe enforceable in 49 states. Collusion and shill bidding always illegal, owner bidding on own merchandise not allowed unless announced prior by auctioneer.


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I dont believe its right either. If you put something in an auction and it sales for less well thats just what happens. Case in point I put a set of shakers on ebay last year, and on most days these shakers would bring between 80 and 120 dollars. Mine sold for 25. I know thats not a lot of money, but it would not have been right for me to have someone run them up. You win some you lose some. just my opinion. I do have a question dont you have the right to ask who you are bidding against? I know around here there is one auctioneer who will run you up against yourself. So when i go to his auctions i always ask who am i bidding against.


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Originally Posted By: s932
I dont believe its right either. If you put something in an auction and it sales for less well thats just what happens. Case in point I put a set of shakers on ebay last year, and on most days these shakers would bring between 80 and 120 dollars. Mine sold for 25. I know thats not a lot of money, but it would not have been right for me to have someone run them up. You win some you lose some. just my opinion. I do have a question dont you have the right to ask who you are bidding against? I know around here there is one auctioneer who will run you up against yourself. So when i go to his auctions i always ask who am i bidding against.


The bolded highlight happens A BUNCH! that's why you never sit in the front row, an auctioneer will get a feel for your habits and absolutely slaughter you!

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Its a shame that it happens, so far he has not got me that i know of. He did try and get my uncle last year on a high ticket item. My uncle asked who was bidding against him and he couldnt produce who it was. Needles to say the auctioneer got stuck with the item. It was also kind of funny that he called my uncle a couple days later and tried to sale the item to him for less money, my uncle declined.


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Originally Posted By: Seth Robbins
Originally Posted By: s932
I dont believe its right either. If you put something in an auction and it sales for less well thats just what happens. Case in point I put a set of shakers on ebay last year, and on most days these shakers would bring between 80 and 120 dollars. Mine sold for 25. I know thats not a lot of money, but it would not have been right for me to have someone run them up. You win some you lose some. just my opinion. I do have a question dont you have the right to ask who you are bidding against? I know around here there is one auctioneer who will run you up against yourself. So when i go to his auctions i always ask who am i bidding against.


The bolded highlight happens A BUNCH! that's why you never sit in the front row, an auctioneer will get a feel for your habits and absolutely slaughter you!



I would think that an auctioneer pulling bids out of the air would be far worse than shill bidding.
So Seth when you see this happening do you roport them to the authorities or at the very least call them on it?

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LOL... yes i have heard that happens more than you think. I know for a fact some auctioneers call a bid when they don't have one. Just pay attention during an auction and you will see it happen. They do it more so for the first bid just to get things going. Funny when no ones bids a second bid.

Seth, I would bet to say in this hobby because it's so small it's only a dozen or so guys that play the games. I know of a few that do it. Not right but than again it not my call.


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Originally Posted By: huskybob
Originally Posted By: Seth Robbins
Originally Posted By: s932
I dont believe its right either. If you put something in an auction and it sales for less well thats just what happens. Case in point I put a set of shakers on ebay last year, and on most days these shakers would bring between 80 and 120 dollars. Mine sold for 25. I know thats not a lot of money, but it would not have been right for me to have someone run them up. You win some you lose some. just my opinion. I do have a question dont you have the right to ask who you are bidding against? I know around here there is one auctioneer who will run you up against yourself. So when i go to his auctions i always ask who am i bidding against.


The bolded highlight happens A BUNCH! that's why you never sit in the front row, an auctioneer will get a feel for your habits and absolutely slaughter you!



I would think that an auctioneer pulling bids out of the air would be far worse than shill bidding.
So Seth when you see this happening do you roport them to the authorities or at the very least call them on it?


There was a local auctioneer that lost his license for doing just that a few years ago around here.


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You can never please everyone all the time [just ask your wife].

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good point DB


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It all goes back to know what you are doing and buyer beware. Sometimes I fail all of the above but still have a good time. Remember it's just a hobby for most of us and any money made is just accidental.

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I go along with Chev 4X4 on all points.I'll keep an eye on it,as I think most of us do,but money is way down the list as to why I'm in the hobby.Having fun with it is at the top of my list.Just my thoughts.Nothing more.

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