Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums General Petroliana Discussion HELP !!!! jkyocom

Seeing you are thr guru on Veeder-roots on this site I thought I might get your help on a problem that developed today. I motorized my computer a few years ago and now when I turn it on the cent wheels are chatering like crazy. It seems a gear is not meshing somewhere. I took some pictures to help me explain.




Here is the motor hooked up to the gear train...


I'll post again for picture space requirement....

Kurt




[This message has been edited by K F H (edited 12-30-2008).]

When I lift up on the pin the chatter stops and only the gallon markers turn. The pin is set into the slot marked 30 cents.



When I lift the pin in the 30 cent slot the chatter dissapears and the drive runs smooth. My question is, if I move the pin to the 20 cent slot it will mesh on a different gear, only trouble is I can't get the pin to shift to any other setting. Do I need to loosen the tabs next to the pricing wheels in order to change the pin to another slot? I'm talking about the saw tooth type flat tabs that are locted next to each side price wheels?

Any help would be appreciated

Kurt

Here is one of the tabs I'm talking about...



And here is the gear behind the "cent" index



It seems when I turn the gear in back of the "cent" slot where the pin sets in, it turns freely without any binding.

Kurt

[This message has been edited by K F H (edited 12-30-2008).]

If the part in the rectangle is bent, the gears will not mesh correctly,..You may have some bad teeth.
Changing the $ will change placement of range arm gear on the cone gear.
There are little bullet shaped parts under the fronts of the price wheels that lock them into position.
If they are stuck it will be hard to change the price.

The ten cent range arm runs a top set and the 0ne cent range arm runs a lower set of planetary gears.....
The set of planetary gears may be sticking and causing more friction than the unit can withstand and is forcing the range arm gear out of mesh......
To make it shorter.......
There are over 200 parts in a variator...
I could speculate all day...
I don't see anything that is obvious, so it may be the planetary gears....
That is where most variators "GUM UP"
With old oil & crud causing them to freeze.
Hope That helps.....

Thanks Joe!!! I will check this out a little later today or tomorrow. If I can't figure it out you may be getting another unit to work on (lol).

Any idea how much would cost to ship the unit to you from Southern Illinois?

It should run you about $20-$30 to ship from Illinois to Joe using UPS

You can try to take the head off and spray pen. oil up into the planetary gears to try to unstick, if that is the problem.....
Also the range arm increment plate can be loose...You can backoff the bottom nuts and raise the plate and slide a small peice of aluminum about the thickness of the sheetmetal under it and then tighten nuts making sure plate has gear in mesh.

Figure 35-40 lbs to 30117...UPS
Insure for at least $200.00
Double box if possible or at least reinforce the box inside w/ cardboard. Pack well w/ paper.....NO PEANUTS
It takes forever to dig them out of the head and they allow computer to move in the box.

Hey Joe - I do not see a rectangle encased planetary gear in mine...The gears seem to be meshing correctly.

Here is a shot from the (what I'll call)front. when I lift the pins to disengage the gear for the 1 cent or the 1/10 cent, the chatter still takes place.



Here is a shot from the back. When I lift the range arm gear on the 10 cent side the chatter stops. All the drive gears seem to mesh properly.



Side view from backside



I'm starting to think it could be the drive motor, since it turns without binding when I turn drive train by hand. When I lift the 10 cent range arm gear,the chatter stops. This could reduce the amount of torque on the drive motor enough to operat the gallons without so much stress. I think the motor was rated at 2.6 inch pounds of torque and a speed of 60rpm. I will disconect the drive motor tomorrow and see if I can drive it from my variable speed drill to see if the variator has gear mesh issues.

Thanks for all your help!!!

Kurt

Most electric pumps pumped gas at a rate of ten gallons a minute....That is a GOOD rate for a new pump of that era. Most would have been less, but 10 GPM is a good standard.
A computer turns at 4 rev (input)per gallon
so 4x10 =40 RPM is closer to being correct.

If you disengage the 10 cent range arm and the noise stops, I would say it is in the cone gear, range arm gear or the planetary gears.
If I could hear the noise I could probably tell you what is wrong. After over 20 yrs I have learned to trust my ears as much as my eyes, sometimes I can isolate a problem just by listening to it run or reset.
I am still thinking if it did not do this before and it does it now(the Noise)
that it is in the planetary gears.
They must not be turning freely.

Hey Joe - I took the drive motor off this morning and turned the V.R. by variable speed drill at a slow speed and it operated smooth as can be without any chatter.
I then held the gear and dogbone on the end of the drive motor shaft and it started slipping without much resistance being applied.

The motor must use nylon gears I guess, but it was a synchronous motor and ran extremely quiet. I guess I will see about replacement metal gears for the motor. If I have to replace the motor, I will try and find a motor that uses metal gears and is a parallel shaft synchronouse motor with as much torque as possible in the 40 rpm range.

Since I'm using the original gear train thats mounted off the side of the variator, would the 40 rpm still apply since I'm not connected to the center shaft of the cone gear? I'm assuming so since the 60 rpm turned a little fast when hooked up in the same configuration.

Thanks for all your help on this subject. I posted all this on the message board instead of emails just in case someone else encounters similar problems with there set up.

Thanks again,

Kurt

Most gear trains only change the input location.
A Bennett gear train input is reduced by 1/2 before it makes it to the computer.

I can't tell what pump that is but I am assuming a G&B, since that looks to be a G&B meter gear in the drive.... could be M&S

The only other METER I know of that needs a reucing gear train is for the older Wayne 4 piston meters.....40,50,60,70 pumps have them.

Grainger has motors with metal gears and hi torque @ 40 rpm that I have used before. Costly ....

Hi Joe - The pump is a M/S 80 tall base cyclops.



The motor I used came from Grainger. If I can't replace the gears I will be shopping for another.

When you say high torque, what range would you say would be the highest on one of these small motors? The last had 2.6 inch pounds.

I need to get onto their site and check it out again. They are pricey.Obviously the torque wasn't the reason for failure. I suspect nylon gears were used instead of metal, although quieter they don't hold up well.

Kurt

I think the highest torque & metal gears I could find in their book were reversable too....
Been years since I have motorized a computer and have no idea what # the motor was...
Don't use Phenolic gears either.

It would be best to disengage the totalizer...
that is the first thing that will fail on a computer, causing damage to your motor drive gears.
If you take off the two small gears on the lower end of the shaft in the pic, everything will still look & work the same and it keeps the totalizer from being a problem.

Joe - I think I already disconnected the totalizer before it went into the pump. Will look tomorrow.

Went to Grainger on the WWW and it looks like they carry the same motor I bought before. I had used the 6A179 wich is 60 rpm and 2.6 "pounds of torque.

They don't carry any motors in the 40 RPM range. It drops from 60 to 30 rpm. The 30 RPM 6A178 has 4.8 inch pounds of torque. It does not list metal gears in any of their listings in the catalog. I will check with my local supplier to see if he can find something with metal gears or replace what I have with metal gears.

I guess the 30rpm would be closer than the 60 rpm in terms of realistic speed running on the Veeder-Root.

Thanks again!

Kurt

Took the motor to my local motor rewind shop. The Hurst motor that I bought at Grainger with 2.6 inch pounds of torque, does have metal gears that appear to be OK. The motor itself have some type of clutch disengage to keep it from burning up when it exceeds max torque. They're not sure how it works but they thought it might be getting week after repeated use? This motor is not that old and I don't run it that often. Might have been a weak build to begin with.
I decided to go with a 30 rpm 4.8 inch pounds of torque motor. The 30 rpm is the closest I could get to the recommended 40 rpm, might be a little on the slow side, but the 60 rpm might have been a little too fast. Will see how it works out when the motor gets here next week.

Kurt