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I am starting my first try at restoring a 1948 Tokheim 39 tall pump. It was a red Skelly Gas pump and that's what I want to go back to. My question is, what is the correct color number for that color red.

For BEST results, buy your signs, decals & globe, then have paint mixed to match. Not ALL repop items follow strict color codes for each company.

Dick
Although you've stated this before,and I understand your trying to help as you always do,is this really the BEST approach for the hobby as a whole?
If everyone did as you suggest here,wouldn't the real authentic true shades of so many vintage colors back then be lost more & more over time,as people rely on convienient repop color shades to represent the original shade today?..In some examples,everyone would eventually agree a repop color is now the norm,when in so many examples,it really wasn't.
I would rather spend more time & money,slowly researching records for the manufacturers original color code,(such as on this great website),or scout around to find a similar untouched survivor pump made by same,then go with a modern day repop color,if I wanted to be authentic in my restoration.
If my suggestions become exhausted,or someone was looking for a quick fix,then I could see going with your suggestion.

CP:

You can paint your pump any color you like - but 9 times out of 10, that 'period correct original color' WON'T match your reproduction decals, pump plates or lenses.

With the EPA requirements now, there is no way that you can even get the exact type of paint that was originally used. And trying to color match from existing how-many-years-old paint will still get you new EPA compliant paint that will be 'as close' as a computer color scanner can come to the sample you provided.

I do beleive that I am the only decal manufacturer that offers color-matching for my clients. You can send me an actual color sample of the paint color(s) you are using and I will output your decals as close as I can to your samples.

This will work for your decals - but unless you want to pay for a Custom set of lenses, you're still stuck with my lens colors. I do try and come as close as possible to original colors - but again, you are using new products to replicate old products.

Later . . .

Jim

You mean you cant buy old lacquer paint anymore? LOL. Jim is correct on this. Even if you take an original paint code, and cross it to the paint used today, it is not going to resemble anything close to the correct color match.

The PCM's guide to gas pump restoration has a page in it with many of the old paint colors. They are Sherwin Williams numbers. Many of them are hard to cross over to anything other than Sherwin Williams.

Skelly red 18063

IMO it depends on what colors we are talking about. In order to decide you would liketo know if there is any difference between original paint and the decal appearance.
If you have a pump with white doors and colored skins, the decal color may be so far from the skin that it doesn't matter much (I.e. Mobilgas special white/red) as opposed to a colored door with a decal in the same color, where there is more of a "demand" that the colors match.
I would personally try to get the colors correct or at least start with a small sample of a correct color to match with the decal/sign.
Just my opinion, it is your pump:-)
Claes

coldpizza
It's your pump do it your way.
BUT, "if I wanted to be authentic in my restoration";
then Don't use ANY newly made items [bolts, washers,
wiring, light bulbs, primer, Un-leaded paints, any item made 5-7yrs after pump was made], NO REPOP ITEMS.
No extra plating, no clear coating, no pin-striping, no color sanding, dents to be filled w/ lead no Bondo, etc

...VERY well said...and maybe I'm asking a dumb question here, but can't anyone match a color 'by eye' anymore?...we match colors that way all the time at the screen printing shop...it seems like you could get close with the computer and adjust the color a little bit at a time by eye until you get there...

...I'm not a paint expert, and I'm not pretending to be one...if mixing auto paint is like mixing ceramic glaze, where you can't see the color 'til the job's done, I understand...

Most auto paint colors in the last few decades have 5 to 9 toner components in their makeup. Metallic and pearl colors are especially tricky to mix by eye. Most of the time we start with something in the ballpark and then add or subtract toners to fine-tune it for a match. You only know if it looks good when it is sprayed out (with clear if required) and dried. All colors change in the spraying and drying process. I have spent hours and $$$ in materials trying to nail a difficult color.

The good news is that gas pumps in the old days used simpler colors with no metallics, etc. Mixing or modifying those to get a match is much easier. Still takes a skilled, experienced eye to do it. Computer scanners or color book chips get you in the ballpark, then you adjust with toners to match.

But what do you match? An old chip from a color standard that may or may not be correct? Matching a tangible item that is going to be on or near the restored pump is a fairly sure thing for satisfaction in the end.

...thanks Jim - sometimes one gets lucky and there's an area of the pump that's been protected (i.e., under a piece of trim, ID tag or pump sign) where the paint is nice and clean...that would be the first thing I'd try...

As a paint expert I see most people take a sample and have it mixed at a paint supplier. If you have a paint code, that is a good start but the code is only a guide. Its a mix called prime. The paint is in large drums there are many variances. The pumps painted from the start of the drum differ from the pumps painted at the end of the same drum of paint. The biggest problem is that some colors dry darker than the sample. A real painter can mix a color of choice for anything. Air pressure alone can change the color. You must spray sample cards for the most accurate matches and tint accordingly. If you don't have a paint code a good option is find a good sample inside a door or under a face plate etc. buff the area to obtain a nice shine. Take that sample to a good paint suppler (jobber) and they should have a camera that can create a formula for a mix of that color. This is only a guide and a good painter can take it from there. I can ashore you that there were variances of some sort or another on every pump,auto,truck etc. The paint process is labor intensive but a real pro makes the color match every time. We have all seen that newer auto at a red light that has a darker fender.That fender was repaired and repainted its color was mixed from the paint code but it was mixed from prime and no tinting was done no test cards were done poor job not a pro at all. Quality products are a must. Cheap clears will also discolor your base. With that said even a perfect color match may vary just from using a cheap clear. So for best results in general you should always consult a true expert in that profession. There are other factors such as the primer or color of primer, sealer and color of sealer that will also directly change your desired color.
You can restore an item a billion times but it can only be original once.

TONY
The best way to kill time is to work it to death

About 2% of this applies to gas pumps. Most of the things you speak about dont even apply to most colors on modern cars. Most of the information you have given is just going to confuse 99 percent of the people you talk to.

Ryan,

My intentions were never to confuse anybody. Everything in which I spoke about is 100% related to paint matching on gas pumps, cars, trains, ect. and I tried to explain on how a color can vary even if it is a perfect match. So I'm sorry if for some reason giving a basic explanation and leading them to a qualified paint supplier, with the technology they have with their paint camera can and will help in getting their desired formula.

And as for this not applying to most modern cars, that's absurd. I guess in the future when a topic arises about my profession or expertise on this sight I will just simply chose to ignore it rather than offer my help.

TONY

Opinions are Good, Jim OLDGAS Potts retired Body Shop, Ryan owns/works a Body Shop & Woody's Rod Shop ALL have THEIR OWN way of matching/using paint. What works best for them is the way it's done in THEIR shop.
Not ALL Experts/Dr's/Judges & Married couples will agree 100% of the time.


SOME Members here Don't agree with me on Anything @ Anytime.
I'd almost bet my image is on more Dart Boards than a Bulls EYE!

For starters I am not a self proclaimed expert on paint. Now that is out of the way.

I have been to training classes multiple times for PPG and have been to a half dozen or so for House Of Kolor. I know a thing or two about paint.

Some of the points you bring up are true, to some extent. Lets start with taking a picture of the paint. To say that you can make a spray out card, then have a paint supplier take a picture with a special camera is true. The false part is that the color will be an exact match. There is not a camera in the world that can get an exact color match, if there was, why would we need to tint paint or have variance options? Wouldnt we just be able to take a picture of an adjacent panel and Poof?

Another problem with your comment is primer/sealer color affecting a topcoat. I can guarantee that if I take a BLACK sealer, and top coat it with three coats of PPG DBC or Waterborn paint, that the color would be exact to the eye in any light as if I had painted over a white primer/sealer. House Of Kolor has spent tons of cabbage on the testing of this and I have even Spoken to Jon Kosmoski about this, (for those who dont know, Jon is pretty much the man when it comes to HOK). It could affect some cheaper paints, or something like a top coat of a tri-coat or a candy, none of which this thread is about. Reminder, this is about Skelly red. Red paints are one of the better covering paints.

Even if your comments were not there to confuse people, trust me they do. 99 percent of the people on here need help with getting a paint color that will be close.

My advice, unless you are painting a million dollar street rod (in which you probably would not have to ask questions) keep it simple. Paint is not that hard.

Im sorry that you feel that your comments are not welcome here, because they are. I just think you are going into far too much paint "theory" for the average pump restorer.