Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums General Petroliana Discussion IT's RIP OFF TIME AGAIN!!!!!!

Well its that time of the year that we start getting ripped off at the pump.
here in west cental Louisiana at the local stop n rob, unleaded regular is $3.11 a gallon.......maybe I shouldn't complain. I know it's higher in other places.
what is the price in your neck of the woods?

I wish gas was ONLY $3.11 here!
Just paid $3.49.9
Spent $104 and didn't even fill the tank!!!!

3.39 a gallon here.....I am going to buy a horse.

Ryan

------------------
visit my website for original gas pump parts

thepumpdump.com

you guys got it easy!!3.55 a gal.wanted to try out the boat this weekend.ROFLMAO!!guess i'll just work on the house it's cheaper!mick

The last fuel delivery here was $3.28 per gallon. That adds up to over $1200.00 per month. That does NOT include gasoline for the other vehicles.....

Gas $3.49 9/10 in Cincinnati.

Mick

35mi north of here it's $3.999 !
About $3.67 here.
Might have to cancel Iowa Gas this year, Almost $1200 just for gas.
db

Around here it is $2.99 9/10 to $3.09 9/10.

DB, fly there and put the pump tops securely in the overhead compartment on your return...

I hear ya DB! I was looking at something on ebay that was about 15 miles from me. It was going cost about the same to have it shipped fifteen miles as it would have cost me to go pick it up and get back home. I need to get a small car. Damn truck is killing me now!
chris

Im not going to complain, last year diesel was about 50 cents a gallon more than regular this year it's 20 cents cheaper,Whats with that!! go figure?????????? And i have 2 diesel pickups.

What kind of boat do you have? Is it a gas pig like this one?



Ryan

------------------
visit my website for original gas pump parts

thepumpdump.com

$3.44 here and rising. Ryan I've got 4 horses I'll sell you. Alfalfa is $140 a ton, glad I raise my own. Richard

Turbo-Supercharged, 2 stroke, V-8, old school, fire breathin', fuel eatin' gear jammin' MONSTER...... Lets NOT talk about fuel mileage.....

And as far as horses.... Eight at last count. At least we can eat some of the other hay burners here. Llama! Its whats for dinner.

[This message has been edited by Thunder II (edited 05-22-2007).]

db,
Forget about driving, fly and have it shipped, you'll save a bunch.

Mick

ryan,its a 24'slickcraft.not as bad as that badboy,but bad enough.

$2.75 here for regular in No. Jersey, but I'm sure it'll be going higher. Ed

WAS thinking about Taking a few pumps to sell, might help to OFFSET the fuel bill.
NO fun in flying, can't stop @ other collectors & look in junk pile.
db

$3.49 here today. Ok, so maybe the good ol' Grand Am is good for something - it gets pretty good mileage. Man, I'm glad I work really close to home. Maybe I'll just start leaving an hour earlier and walking...but then again, maybe not! LOL.
Tara

Guthrie, OK is @ $3.38/gal for Regular. Diesel can be bought here for about $2.68. Thank GOD for Duramax diesels. Got a 2500 HD (heavy 3/4) with duramax & allison and right now I'm getting no less than 17.5 MPG on the highway, sometimes up to 19-20 MPG if the wind is with me. Gets about 15.5 MPG pulling a small (14') trailer. My father-in-law (Vic) has an '07 Duramax Dually that he pulls a 48' Featherlite two-car hualer with. He's on his way right now to Rockford to sell some Corvettes and he told me that we has getting better than 13mpg even with a huge trailer & 2 cars, albeit an aluminum featherlite. None of my family ever drove anything but big gasoline trucks, but I guarantee you, it's WELL worth the money to go with the Duramax.

Gas here is only a bit over $1.10 per, eh! Unfortunately thats per litre and there is approx 4 1/2 of those in your gallon my friends. You do the math... then consider yourselves very lucky, huh.

For those that dont have a calculator thats $5.00 a gallon for the cheap stuff, duh!

Also recently completed a 7,500 mile USA road trip and I'm not going there with the math.

Was in Chicago area today...looked like average was $3.55 for the cheap grade.

News had story about refinery problems but is supposed to be 'fixed; and prices to edge down----we shall see

When PIGS fly, we'll see cheap gas AGAIN.
But, then we won't have the extra money to buy it.

$3.05 here in central PA and with the holiday just around the corner, you can forget about any price drops. Ironic in a way, the hobby we love of yesterday is so connected to what we hate today. Dave

Diesel here is $2.71 per gallon. I drive a 2004 Dodge Cummins diesel 2500 series crew cab long bed and getting right at 20MPG. My wife drives a Volkswagen Jetta diesel and get 45-50 per gallon. Most of the time I drive the 1988 Toyota 4X4 (the old grey mare) bought her new in late '87....just can't part with her.....
It's about time that diesel was cheaper than gas....the way it use to be.....but it won't be long till it goes up again.

$3.35 9/10 in West Virginia today. Was $3.19 9/10 yesterday evening. Quite a jump overnight!

Jim

I recall in 1968 when I graduated from high school that my dad was selling Fire Chief gasoline for $0.35 a gallon, Pepsi out of the machine for $0.10, candy bars for $0.05, and Lucky Strike and Camel cigarettes for $0.25. At the drug store we bought ice cream cones for $0.05. At the bakery we bought fresh sweet rolls for $0.05. And a case of beer was $5.00. My parents together made only about $10,000/year. In that respect, if you'll check the inflation of forty years, gasoline is cheaper today than it was 40 years ago! And, the state gasoline tax is double what it was back then! Too, look at all of the additional equipment the oil refineries have installed to stop pollution. And, I know of one company who owns two refineries that spent $500 million in upgrades just to produce the Ultra Low Sulfer Diesel that was mandated by the government for the 2007 diesels. Today, huge refineries are being built in India to refine Saudi crude so the product can be shipped to the U.S. to meet our demands because no additional refineries can be built in the U.S. because of environmental concerns. I could go on and on, but you get the idea..............Happy Motoring!

O' TA.....didn't EXXON / MOBIL report record profits around 36 billion dollars in just the last quarter?....thats after the 500 million I guess they spent.

Paddy
I WANT CHEAP GAS!!!!!

[This message has been edited by texaspelican (edited 05-23-2007).]

Its a DAMN DISGRACE!

The reason for all this is just GREED. There is NO REASON other than avarice and greed, for fuel prices to be this high. I WORK for CHEVRON and they cannot justify it..much less anyone else..

------------------
Robert Usrey

Stuck on $3.59 here.

I'm riding my bicycle to work. A little more exercise won't hurt me anyway.


[This message has been edited by Gaspedler (edited 05-23-2007).]

#1: You take 6 giant oil companies (Exxon & Mobil, Chevron & Texaco, Conoco & Philliips) and let them combine into 3 MEGA oil companies and you just doubled your chance that they can practice price collusion and time their refinery "maintenance" to coincide with one another. It makes perfect sense...double the price and make 1/2 as much...wouldn't we all love to do 4 hours work for 8 hour pay!

#2: As long as oil is traded willy-nilly like shares of Wal-Mart or Microsoft, the prices will be subject to artificial run-ups based on rumor & innuendo. You got some guy behind a computer buying options on 50,000 barrels of oil in hopes that in the 30 days that the option contract is good for, the price will go up and he can sell it. Either way, he's selling during the 30 day period regardless of price because obviously he doesn't have a spare 50,000 barrel storage tank in his backyard.

Listen guys, the majority of crude in this country runs right to Cushing, Oklahoma and is stored there. Right now, Cushing is jam-packed full of crude. What does that tell you. It's not oil we're hurting for, it's distillate stocks, i.e. unleaded, diesel, kerosene, etc....

[This message has been edited by Seth Robbins (edited 05-23-2007).]

Dick,

Who needs to buy gas when you have a flying pig to ride?

Wes

Wes...good one!
If I had a flying pig I know everybody would want to see it. Then I sure wouldn't worry about the price of gas.
this worked for that pigtailed girl when she was in OZ
I wish for cheap gas
I wish for cheap gas
I wish for cheap gas
was I suppose to close my eyes and click my heels?

Paddy
I want cheap gas!!!!!

[This message has been edited by texaspelican (edited 05-23-2007).]

Cushing, OK tank farm that Seth speaks of: should increase it's capacity by 50% by 2010 (it is one of the largest in the US). I have a customer that has a contract to build 50 tanks, five of which are mega tanks 500ft in diameter the others are the std 250ft. in diameter. The reason, DEMAND. The oil co.
's do price gouge and participate in collusion but the underlying principal to allow all of this is demand.

I agree 100% that demand is ever-increasing and that helps drive higher prices, BUT, I have a problem with that theory in this instance and here it is in terms we can all understand.

Let's say you buy 10 Wayne 60's during a time in which they are plentiful, for $750/ea. and you sell them all for $1500/ea.
That means you made $7500 gross profit.

Then, you go out looking for 10 more, but since supply is tight, you only find 5, but now they cost you $1000/ea. The profit margin you made before was 100%, so to make that margin you sell these 5 for $2000/ea for a gross profit of $5000.

Here's my question: If gasoline supply is so tight, how are the oil companies recording record profits?? Shouldn't they AT BEST be making around the same profit as before?? I don't get it I guess. If you have less of something to sell, but you sell it for more than before, how are you that much money-ahead than when you had a lot and sold for a little?

[This message has been edited by Seth Robbins (edited 05-23-2007).]

The Government already looked into this, it's all on the up and up. Trust them.

yeah right...

Was $3.219 here today. $2.999 Diesel. High here is $3.299.

I am lucky/glad I only live 10 minutes from work.

The Hemi isn't terrible on gas 14/15 town and 18/19 highway, but if I had a long commute it would be gone.

Nice show about 1-2 hours away this weekend. Not going. We were going to travel this summer, not happening. Like someone else said, I'll stay home and work on the house, its cheaper!

Something's gotta give.

What do you guys drive?
And what kind of mileage do you get?
How does $3.50 or more a gallon for gas change your driving habits?

F250 extended cab 460 auto, BIG tool boxes, always hauling a load. Its a pig. 5-6 MPG. W/O the boxes and runnin without a load it got about 10 MPG.
F250 5.4, auto. 14+ empty, 10 pulling a loaded trailer.
Lincoln Continental, 4.6, about 21 mpg highway.

At $3.50 a gallon I'll still travel to the races every weekend. I wouldn't skip a petro show because of it either. When (not if) it hits $4 I might change my mind and stay closer to home.

The old truck is going to be retired this year. When I replace it, fuel mileage will be a consideration, but won't be the determining factor in what I buy.

When fuel prices go up the cost of all goods go up. That concerns me more than what it costs me to drive somewhere.

I have a crude oil trucking business in the oilfields of North Dakota/Montana. When there is a boom in the industry, all services capitalize, including drilling rigs on down to transportation, not to mention the exploration companies. There is no difference than any other industry. What I have a problem with is the fact that there are wells being shut in up here because the pipelines are full and the refineries are at full capacity, maybe if we had not got rid of most of our refineries in the U.S. we wouildn't be in this shape.

Comparisons to yesteryear and today aren't totally right either. 30 years ago my mother and most of the friends mothers didn't work.......no daily work commute. My father and my friends fathers generally worked within a ten mile radius of home. Much shorter commutes. Today I drive 50 miles round trip in a four cylinder and my wife works as well. Health insurance is the largest deduction from my paycheck leaving less for other expenses. My parents 30 years ago didn't pay for health care. If you take the expenses the average American has today vs. what their parents had, you'll find that people on the whole in relative terms actually have less...thus the almost necessity of 2 income households(don't forget those huge child care expenses). In short, we feel the crunch more today because rises in energy expenses are not as easily absorbed as they were 30 years ago. Unfortunately it will only get worse. Food for thought.

I would like to run My Home Like Walmart All I have to do is report an estimated income of One million and when I only make 50,000 I could right off 950,000 on my taxs one year of this and I could retire.

Just retired my old '94 Taurus at 250,000 miles. Used as a work car. with the small V-6 it got 30 mpg all day long, 34 if you set it on cruise at 65 on the Interstate. Replaced it with a 2007 Mustang GT 5spd. Gets 24-25 mpg. Since I'm retired I don't care about gas mileage as much. Got a '69 Mach 1 that thankfully I don't have to drive it much....it is a real gas hog. Our Escape w/ a V-6, 4WD, gets around 24.

I think since this is a non-election year they are really going to put the screws to us. Next year it will 'drop' back to what, $2.99/ gallon, and we'll all be,,, happy.

That's the thing, the masses will be happy with 2.999, becuase it was at $3.50. I think we are about $1 over where we were here last year this time. If gets below $2, then I'll be happy, but I do not think we will ever see that again.

Demand, plain and simple.

Seth, nice observations.

What do you think of the laws of supply and demand? Competition levels the field of capitalistic greed. Because the environmental groups and the government (Congress and the Environmental Protection Agency) have not allowed an oil refinery to be built in the U.S. in about 20 years, there is no longer any refining competition and the existing refineries can sell everything they make. There is no competitive pressure to push prices down. Crude oil supplies are good in Cushing, Oklahoma and western North Dakota. In fact, because there is not enough refining or crude oil pipeline competition in the Rocky Mountain or Midwest regions with the abundance of imported Canadian crude, crude prices for oil produced in North Dakota are about 50% of west Texas crude. You won't see that benefit because there is no competition. In place of printing your own money, just buy refineries as the Canadians did in Denver....There won't be any competition because you know no one will build one beside you.......thanks to the environmentalists and the EPA....Keep up the good work! I think I'll go buy some Exxon or Chevron stock!

Maybe we should have an election EVERY YEAR and take back some of the power the elected.

I don't pretend to be an expert whatsoever on this, but my feeling is that the biggest reason for the high prices is refining capacity. Close behind is not being able to drill in Alaska and in the restricted areas of the Gulf.

I don't like paying the high price for gasoline anymore than anyone else, I drive a Suburban and my wife drives a Yukon. BUT, if a company is in business to make their shareholders a profit, they should make every dime they can. I really don't have a problem with oil companies making record profits.
High oil prices put many people to work, I think every old well in the East Texas field is being worked on to pump even a few barrels a day. That's a lot of service companies and people with a job. I assume it's the same everywhere in the country.

Also, I don't remember anyone trying to help out the oil companies and small oil businesses in the 1980's when everyone in the oil business was going broke because of LOW oil prices...

3.43 9/10 for regular and 2.92 9/10 for diesel. I have a problem when it costs me over $10.00 to fill my motorcycle. Granted it sounds cheap compared to filling the Motorhome but Holly Cow Batman, it is only a motorcycle! Now that I am on a fixed income $10.00 seems like a lot of money just to joy ride. So I ride my bike and my girlish figure is getting a workout!!!
Good day,
Mike

Supply and demand??????? How about this....if you have enough money to pay for what they are demanding you can buy all the'supply' you want. Ain't no shortage, never was. This is mass marketing folks plain and simple. Someone mentioned the poor oil economy in the 80s, in the 70s when the big "shortage" started and the long lines at the pumps etc it was all BS then and is now again. In the 70s I worked for the RR and we recieved an embargo notice to not bill any tank cars of petroleum to Mexico because the border was flooded with them and the Mexicans didn't have enough locomotive power to pull them across the border, for hiding no doubt. And another thing they are getting a lot of mileage (pun) of not having enough refineries the last few yrs to meet the demand. The big bucks all oil companies have is more than enough to build a refinery once a week and write it off as a capital investment. EPA.....when pigs fly as the man in CA said. This country runs on nothing but big business money and all the politicans are on the payroll.
That's about 2 bits worth. Oh ya forgot, our congress forgave the oil company in Alaska the bill for the crude they are pumping. They get it free guys. Poor oil barons.

Isn't it a gas? NOT!!! There goes my kids' inheritance...

Here is a whimsical look at the atate of affairs (and I wish I was having an affair!) to give everyone a laugh.

None of this is true.

Sultan Oil Patch wants to start collecting gas pumps--that's right, the petroliana stuff. But, there is not enough revenue coming in to pay for everything, especially his harem, if he starts the gas pump hobby.

So, he sends out press releases that there are problems at a couple or three dozen of his refineries. Since he owns stock in media companies, they print his story.

People like you and I are caught in the crosshairs and stop collecting petroliana stuff because it costs more just to live week to week.

He cuts his refinery production (or so he says), raises his prices, and reaps a windfall. I mean the megillah of windfalls.

With falling petroliana prices due to a slowed demand, he scoops the stuff up and attains a near monopoly. Prices of petroliana items go into the stratosphere.

Disguntled petroliana collectors, many of whom are working in large metro areas, get fed up with it all. They sell off everything and get back to the land. Those that already have land look for ways to put it to good use.

Some of the inventive ones come up with ways to turn their newly acquirred acres into corn production. The former petro collectors band together and go into ethanol production without a large corporation mentality and make a fortune. Collectively they are well off and since they are decent guys to begin with as former petro collectors, they get along well as a group.

Sultan Oil Patch, disgusted with falling prices for oil and gasoline, dumps his holdings. His near monopoly in petro stuff runs its course. He dumps his holdings.

With his cash horde, the Sultan hires the ex-petro collectors to turn his acres of sand into corn production so that he can get into ethanol which has higher rates of return than oil and gas.

But, the 'ol boys have him by the short hairs and charge him so f---in' much money that The Sultan has to sell everything except a 4 bedroom 2 1/2 bath home and a couple of camels, and a 10 y.o Merceds.

The harem is gone--all the young women become involved with the finacially secure ex-petro collectors. The Sultan can afford an ex-hooker from Cleveland once a week and that's it.

Ta da!!!

Laugh guys, c'mon, you can do it!

Happy Memorial Day to all.

Remember - without oil this site wouldnt be here and we would all be collectiog something else- don

------------------
Wanted 5 quart cans

It is very easy and convenient to bash the major oil companies. What we have to consider is that the prices are set by traders and not the companies. Also they are responsibe to their shareholders to make a decent profit or the stock goes down. The majors do make a decent profit but it is not near the top in ranks of industries as far as profit margins or rate of return for shareholders. When we hear that Exxon Mobil made 8 billion last quarter consider that it is the largest corp in the world and much of these profits go into retirement funds and portfolios that we depend on for our retirement. Just something to consider.

Don, well said.
Of all websites, I was surprised to see this pop up here.
Granted, none of us like paying the higher price. But as petrol collectors, I would have thought we were better educated than the general public on this.

With all the talk of hotrods, and hemi's in trucks, and how bad everyones fuel mileage is, then to complain about the gas price is like the old saying "Don't complain about the farmer with your mouth full".

Lets don't forget to thank the fine folks at the E.P.A. department, that are concerned with your health and environment, that Mandate lower RVP formula gasolines during the summer months which are much more expensive to make.

And just to be fair, we will have different formulas for different cities. So it can't be produced by just any refinery in any market, each area will have it's own special requirement. That way if there is a problem at the refinery, it can't be trucked in from other markets to help keep the price down.

Why don't we hear people complaining the Wonderful new E85 Ethanol blend gasoline, that gives you reduced fuel mileage, and is selling for about 40¢ more than a gallon of gas?

Last year Straight Ethanol hit $5.00 a gallon, but no one ever mentioned how that price affected the gas price.

OK, I'll shut up.
Chuck

Corn alcohol is not the answer to our problems....we have to start raising switch grass and lots of it. You get almost 1200 gallons/acre of ethanol from switch grass and only around 300 from corn. Plus, for every 1.0 unit of energy you put into an acre of corn you only get back about 1.3 units of energy.

Or be like Argentina, 0 import of oil. All vehicles must be able to run on ethanol.

I read an article from ISU where they stated it actually takes more than a gallon of fossil fuel to make a gallon of ethanol from corn. If it weren’t for gov. subsidizing it would be a bust. But hey were building 5 new ethanol plants in Iowa, corn prices should skyrocket and make even more economically stupid.


But it does help farmers and I'm all for that, but Ethanol from corn is not the answer, it's a bandaid at best.


Brian

[This message has been edited by BLange (edited 05-26-2007).]

DB said "Or be like Argentina, 0 import of oil. All vehicles must be able to run on ethanol."

They make theirs from sugar beets, if I'm not mistaken.


Brian

Takes 1.06 gallons of Fossel Fuel to make one gallon of Ethanol.

1 bushell of corn makes 2.5 gallons of Ethanol.

The Ethanol I have been hauling is 200 proof before it is denatured.

I say lets just drink the stuff.....

I'm in!!!!

I’ve been following this thread with a great deal of amazement and amusement. There's been so much populist nonsense spouted off here that I need to put on some hip boots. A few posters seem to know how the oil industry really works but most are either totally ignorant or poorly informed.

First of all, the main reason that petroleum products prices have been going higher is increased demand and not enough surplus capacity. The primary reason for the lag in supply is the bottleneck in the refining and distribution infrastructure. There have been no refineries built in the USA in over thirty years. Blame this on government regulation and historically poor refining and marketing economics. There are onerous regulatory permitting hurdles, red tape, expenses and the popular “not in my backyard” syndrome which make new refineries unfeasible. Don’t believe this? Do some real homework.

Secondly, the oil industry is just average in financial returns even in today’s pricing environment. Don’t believe it? Check out the financial metrics of various industries (ROCE - rate of return, capital investment, gross and net margins, etc) and compare. You will find that the oil industry is overly capital intensive with an average return over the long term. Go check out the financial metrics for Google, Microsoft and other tech companies for the real gougers in the world.

Thirdly, the oil industry is similar to the meat packing business in that people want to see the steak on the table but don’t want to know how it got there, let alone have the slaughterhouse in the neighborhood. ALL future oil & gas products will be more expensive. Guaranteed. That’s because the CHEAP oil has already been found. All the future big finds will be in politically unstable countries, remote regions or in deep water. Read about "peak oil" and you will see that the world is on a collision course with disaster. We should be encouraging politicians to allow development of known reserves and also pushing for viable and economic alternative energy sources.

Lastly, the oil market is global. Prices are set by thousands of traders in competitive markets. There are NO companies big enough in the global economy to set prices or even collude with other companies. There are NO tankers waiting off shore for higher prices. There were NO devices ever invented to save gasoline that were bought out by the oil companies. There’s NO petroleum products held off the market to drive up prices. Don’t believe these ridiculous urban legends because they make no real economic sense.

Bottom line...one should always know the facts before spouting off at the mouth. Americans are so spoiled by generations of cheap energy that there are no easy solutions today. Don’t like the current prices? You can always park that gas guzzler and help reduce demand. If enough people do that, prices WILL drop. You can’t repeal Economics 101 no matter how much you whine.

....or another alternative that would help would be to do like Germany has done for years to help cut oil consumption. They follow the old Bible rule of 'no work on Sunday' that we USED to do in this country before the age of Super Wal-Mart.

EVERYTHING starts closing down about 2:00 P.M. on Saturday. NO business is opened on Sunday. ALL big trucks are forbidden to be on the road from 10 P.M. Sat. nite til 10:00 P.M. Sunday nite, because ' Sunday is FAMILY day and it is safer to keep the big trucks off of the road.' We could go a step further and mandate a national highway speed limit of 50 mph. (everbody drives 10-15 over the limit anyway.)

I lived and worked in Germany and developed a very fond awareness of how we Americans are a bunch of self serving slobs. We don't want to sacrifice any of our comforts. Let the other guy do it, we're too into ourselves. These things will never come to pass because the very rich Americans are never satisfied,,,the ones who run business,,they want it all.

Think how peaceful it would be here w/ people staying at home on Sunday and not running 15 miles to Wal-Mart to buy paper towels they could have picked up when they were there Saturday morning. Ask any German about their impression of America. If they have been here they will tell you that they can't believe our go-go-go culture and stores open all nite and people running all over in their cars.

We're all guilty of this. Maybe we should learn from the foreigners. Maybe the Big Three wouldn't be going down the tubes like they are if they built better fuel efficient cars.......

Anyway enough I've rambled too long here. Back to petro stuff.

Yeah -those Germans have always been such good humanitarians havent they? It is Memorial day weekend-don't forget! Why don't you take your foot out of your mouth and take a walk.

[This message has been edited by JimT (edited 05-27-2007).]

Midway, we tried a national speedlimit here in the states from the mid 70's through mid 90's, didn't work. I raced for years all over the world, including Germany. There ARE big trucks on the road on Sat and Sun. Every race team moves their vehicles by transport. BMW and VW move their vehicles by transport as well as rail, same as here. And unless something drastic has happened, there is the Autobohn. And unless I'm mistaken, and on this I'm not.. Germany is in a tighter squeeze when it comes to Oil related problems than the US. Their economy is not as robust nor can it handle a hit from rising oil prices as our economy can. Nothing in this world is black or white, especially rising prices. And econ 101 principles won't cut it. The Business Schools of the world, as well as every government, have been working on these problems in earnest since the early 70's and the problem hasn't been solved yet. You loose those you are trying to reach when you call them names, they dismiss you as someone who holds no credible weight.
Bob
PS: gas prices here have fallen from 3.46 to 3.22 in the last week. Supply is the same, travel is the same, gas mixture is the same. State says they are taking a hard look at the Oil Companies and now Congress is too. Strange how prices fell when that happened.

Bob: "And econ 101 principles won't cut it. The Business Schools of the world, as well as every government, have been working on these problems in earnest since the early 70's and the problem hasn't been solved yet."

What problem?? Left alone, the free market will properly allocate resources, all resources not just oil. Government efforts to control markets have always failed and always will.

By the way, I heard no public outcry from the ordinary citizen when crude oil prices collapsed in 1986 and stayed low throughout the 1990's. Tens of thousands of employees lost their jobs and hundreds of companies went bankrupt in the oil patch. Of course, this helped to plant the seeds for the next supply side shortage. The history of the oil business is boom and bust. However, the function of markets is to properly allocate resources through good and bad times. Governments will never efficiently replace the market place.

Paul, What problem???? According to the UN,EU,Congress of the US and OPEC there is a problem with escalating fuel related costs for the economies of both developing and established countries. Again,freshman economics, isn't what the world is run on. As to Oil prices collapsing, please point to when that happened, according to the GAO it didn't. Prices fell after Opec couldn't control their members and each sold oil as a "free market" commodity at differing prices. The Oil Companies here in the US did get subsidies, which they still collect even now. In the 1970's OPEC flexed it's collected muscle and caused a false fluctuation in the marketplace. Big Oil was able to do this again in the 1990's and it continues to this day. Now as a driver I complain about rising prices along with everyone else, as a stockholder in 4 different Oil Corporations I very much enjoy the dividends. I guess I am a hypocrite when it comes to fuel costs. Every business owner who has a fleet of vehicles becomes an economist. And they deal with real life economics, not theory. Oil is not and has never been a real "free market commondity", it has been and is manipulated by cartels. Whether Standard Oil in the 1920's, Big Oil in the 30's-60's, OPEC in the '70's or Big Oil and OPEC now. And yes Paul, I do have degrees, no not in Economics. But my post-grad degree in Business is from a pretty good school, the Univ. of WA.

Bob, if you’re trying to argue a point try to at least bring some facts to the table.

Bob comment: “And yes Paul, I do have degrees, no not in Economics. But my post-grad degree in Business is from a pretty good school, the Univ. of WA.”

Well, as a supposedly highly educated individual, you should know to do adequate research and the requisite homework about topics you know nothing about before spouting off and placing foot in mouth!!

For you or anyone else with an interest, here’s a link to some historical data and information on crude oil pricing and the “boom & bust” cycles. Scroll down for more detail on the 1986 price collapse…
http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm

Bob comment: “The Oil Companies here in the US did get subsidies, which they still collect even now.”

Totally false. The only thing major oil companies ever get remotely close to a subsidy is accelerated tax depreciation for capital expenditures. And of course, most other industries also use the available tax law and some pay no taxes at all!! Major oil companies pay income taxes at approx. 37%. Do your homework.

Bob comment: “In the 1970's OPEC flexed it's collected muscle and caused a false fluctuation in the marketplace. Big Oil was able to do this again in the 1990's and it continues to this day.”

So, are you talking about OPEC or “big oil”?? OPEC proved that cartels can only work for short periods of time but will eventually fail. Witness the collapse of crude oil prices in the late 1980’s through the 1990’s. Still don’t believe prices collapsed and stayed low?? Heavy crude oil in California fell to $6.00 per barrel in 1998 and many producers LOST money and some failed. Again, do your homework.

Bob comment: “Oil is not and has never been a real "free market commondity (sic)", it has been and is manipulated by cartels.”

Yeah? News to me. Crude oil and natural gas have been totally free market commodities since Ronald Reagan deregulated the oil & gas markets in the early 1980’s. Prior to that, crude oil and natural gas were both regulated by U.S. agencies with poor results. With no price incentives, the drilling rig count dropped and production declined. Paradoxically, when controls were lifted production increased and within a few years prices collapsed before finding equilibrium. Of course, the educated economist could have predicted that the free market would work much more efficiently than a regulated market. Again, do your homework.

Bob comment: “Now as a driver I complain about rising prices along with everyone else, as a stockholder in 4 different Oil Corporations I very much enjoy the dividends. I guess I am a hypocrite when it comes to fuel costs.”

Yes, you ARE a hypocrite!!

Wake up and smell the coffee. The price at the pump WILL rise and fall with supply and demand. I can assure you that it will rise more than it falls in your remaining lifetime. The American love affair with cheap gasoline is over. Get used to it.

"Totally false. The only thing major oil companies ever get remotely close to a subsidy is accelerated tax depreciation for capital expenditures. And of course, most other industries also use the available tax law and some pay no taxes at all!! Major oil companies pay income taxes at approx. 37%. Do your homework."


That's not totally true, some (most) of the big oil companies enroll in the Pick program. Land that has never been farmed but some how slips in as land set aside as farm land. Oil companies have the largest % of land in the Pick program. Yes the Pick program is a subsidy. Not to start an all out war on this forum over high gas prices. But there is much more to it than supply and demand curves. And yes I did graduate from college with a business degree.

What does this have to do with high gas prices, nothing, just another example of how Big Oil is making money off tax payers.

Brian

Sounds like some you belong on Capital Hill, you'd fit right in !!! LOL

T

This is getting out of hand.....

Paddy

WTB Billups, Rose, Canal, and
CHEAP GAS!!!!!!

I'm with Paddy lock this **** up !!!!

Brian,
Let's hear more about this so-called Pick land program. For instance, just how and what do major oil companies get from this program and how do they make money from it?

Without further information, this is just more hollow nonsense about how oil companies rule the world, rape the land and pick the pockets of all the "little people"!!

Out of hand? Lock it up??

Probably better. Then everybody can go back and believe their fairy tales, conspriacy theories and other nonsense that won't hold up to any legitimate scrutiny. But I guess if you believe, it must be true!!

Sounds like you’re the only one getting pissy about it. I offered a fact, and you seem not to like it and now you want the topic locked.

I was doing a term paper and stumbled on the Pick/Oil Co. thing, if you want to know more (as you have said) do your homework.

Done with this topic.


Brian

What is going on in this thread is a lot of what is actually going on in a lot of "oil & gas" states such as Oklahoma (where I am at) & Texas (where Pablo is at). Obviously there is a lot of disdain around about high prices, but it seems like there are about 1 in every 3 people in my area that are affected positively by the surge in drilling caused by the higher prices.
For example, one of the moms at my kid's school has like 3 sets of mineral rights that never amounted to much, but recently she's been getting like $70,000 every quarter! One of my best friends started a small oil-field service (poly-pipe, generators, mud & trash pumps, trash trailers, pit liners, etc) towards the late 1990's. It was just him and his dad & uncle. Over the last 4-5 years, they increased to 43 employees and got tons of equipment & contracts. They flew to Houston a few weeks back and came home with a $15 million check from a big player that wanted to buy them out. These are just two of several stories I could tell of people that I know personally here in OK that are really prospering. But OK has always been that way....BOOM with the Oil, BUST with the Oil. Chesapeake, Devon, Kerr McGee, etc all have major presence here and they are building parks & museums & stuff everywhere, not to mention buying the Seattle Super Sonics with the intention of moving them to OKC. I could really blow some minds at the hiring by the O & G Co.s that has been going on down here. Right now, if you are willing to spend 5 days a week working & living in a trailer or hotel in West Texas, you can START at about $800/week for totally untrained/unskilled positions. If you have a CDL & some management experience, you can double that to start! Some companies are offering bonuses of up to $1000 per every month worked, payable at Christmas. That's $12,000 bonus just for not quitting every year. It's a really dividing issue in these parts. I really shouldn't b*tch so much about it either, as my sales to oil company archivists, executives, mineral rights owners, etc have risen to make up for the loss in sales due to high gas prices. Trust me, when gas goes up a bunch, our phones quit ringing. If it comes down to paying the rent & buying pump parts, well, you know. But lately, it seems like every other call I get is from a guy that does frack tanks, or a company that makes drill-bits, or a guy that is in the pipe business...and they all want some gear for their offices. Anyway, it's just interesting to me that there ARE regular people in the world that see this as an EXTREME positive.

I never said to lock it. A poster before you said it. I merely added some sarcasm.

I found nothing on the net about any "Pick" program related to oil companies. Without further info on the program and how it generates money for oil companies, it's just another baseless "fact" about how "big oil" is ripping off the country.

Seth,
Sounds like you know what's going on in the "oil patch". As previously stated, it's always been "boom & bust" in the oil business.

Only difference today? Back in the the 1986 oil price collapse, the world had over 16 million barrels a day of excess production capacity. Today, the world has only about 1 million barrels a day of excess oil production capacity. With all the conflicts and political pressures in countries with large oil reserves, some of which are our enemies, one can see how fear and emotion can move the markets quickly. This situation will not change until the supply/demand curves change. Governments are powerless to force prices down without making the long term situation even worse.

A simple question from my Bro' Paddy.....
"What is the price in your neck of the woods?"......... Next thing you know..... Insults, sarcasm, personal opinions, and statements made WITHOUT....... Pause for effect. The links, or information as to where to find that information, to back them up....... Keep it up guys.... I for one, am enjoying the fireworks.....

Boom or bust, supply and demand...... All I know about this is, as a small company, about 25% of my income, goes to fuel costs!!!!!! Now add to that, maintenance, tools, insurance, registrations, advertising, dump fees, utility bills, new equipment/inventory....... Gee Wally, do you get to draw a salary after all those expenses? Yes, just a bit of Jerry Mathers sarcasm there. Fuel prices are up, and so are the tempers.......... I think its time to dust off some oil cans! 'Nuff said.

Pick is the nickname for it, and for the life of me I can't remember the Gov. name for it. But basically all it is, is a Gov. program where the Gov. pays you not to grow crops on your land, set it aside. There is all kind of scams that came out of it. Not saying what the Oil companies did with it was a scam. It's what any Co. that ownes a ton of land would do that's not into farming. The Gov. pays them not to grow crops where you couldn't grow a weed.

I remember in the early 90's that's all you heard about around here was how "Pick" was bailing out the farmers. We had a ton of corn laying around rotting. Maybe some of the farmers on here know better than I, about it.

Like I said, it has nothing to do with high gas prices, just a little debate on your post Pablo.

Have a good one, I'm out of here,


Brian

Gas prices dropped to below $3.00 (2.959) today, here in St. Louis. Probably because nobody went anywhere this weekend.
Jack Sim

Paul, because you say something it must be true? The House and Senate both have Bills before Congress addressing Oil Subsidies. Wait I forgot you said I was wrong about my info, so House Bill H.R.453.IH, Senate Bill S.666.IS and Senate Bill S.115.IS must not exsist. Oh by the way, the House Bill is called "Ending Subsidies for Big Oil Act of 2007 and the first Senate Bill is named "Oil Industry Tax Break Repeal Act of 2007. For those who wonder where I got some of my facts: They can be checked out at www.house.gov then go to Find a Bill, Amendment or Debate.

Bob,
Let's get to the real truth. A subsidy as defined by the The American Heritage Dictionary is "Monetary assistance granted by a government to a person or a private commercial enterprise".

Major oil companies DO NOT receive subsidies. (Government assistance by Britain and France for Airbus is a good example of a real subsidy.) Tax deductions or incentives are not subsidies. Accelerated tax deductions for the oil industry have historically been designed to encourage drilling in deep water, tight sands, coal beds, etc. They are not handouts like many seem to think, including the Democrats who wrote the House bill.

My posts on this thread are designed to encourage people to think instead of spouting off mindless babble. There are many sides to every story, there are facts, there are half-truths, there is nonsense and myth. An intelligent, educated person will research, discover the facts and dismiss the falsehoods. Always whining, moaning and complaining about the "conspiracies" in the world without credible facts is not indicative of an open, intelligent mind.

[This message has been edited by Pablo (edited 05-28-2007).]

An interesting thread. If nothing else, it certainly shows that there is a lot of information out there about why fuel is the price it is. Some of the information is even true! But it's really difficult to tell what's true and partially true from what isn't. And that's a problem.
I've worked for oil companies in Houston, Calgary, White Plains, and yes, even Sugar Land... it's also difficult for even an insider to get a representative big picture. But at the end of the day,if you owned an oil company, what would you do? Operate like a charity, so everyone can afford to buy your product at will and use as much as they please? Because that is what asking the guvmint to step in to spank these "greedy" oil companies and get them to lower prices really means.

Prices will continue to go up per unit of oil-based anything. I'd bet on that...



[This message has been edited by silent chief (edited 05-28-2007).]

[This message has been edited by silent chief (edited 05-28-2007).]

Yaaaaaaaaaaaawn...stretch...after I send my thoughts to several departed ex-Army buddies who didn't make it back from 'Nam, I'm going out to the garage to get a couple of pumps ready to put back together and sell to some folks who might like them and one for myself. Afterall, I enjoy doing that. This site and all the guys who have been so generous sharing info have helped me to do that.

This will be the last time I comment on this subject, I know some of you are quite glad to read this fact. Paul, the Congress of the US calls it subsidies. But, you don't agree with the terminology they use, so it must not be a subsidy???? I have read and heard some arrogant things in my 50+ years here on this earth, but I think you take the prize. I got my info from the Library of Congress and you told me to do my homework. I give you some of the Bills in said Congress,this session of Congress, again you say I haven't done my research. You give a website as your proof, they work for Oil Companies, Oil Speculators and Investors. In fact I see where they have commented on prospectus that I have used. They are where I got some of my facts about pricing collapsing when OPEC couldn't control their members but,I read and used points without "cherry picking" their reports. So to everyone, I know this so called debate between myself and Paul is either entertaining or stupid. Most likely both. Read the House and Senate Bills, for yourselves and decide if you are interested. If the one's footing the money in Congress call them subsidies, if BP calls them subsidies in House subcommittee meetings on the Artic pipeline. If the Oil Corporation Chairman's call them subsidies in Senate Hearings, then maybe you will decide what to call them. Don't let me or Paul talk over each other, make up your own minds, because as the taxpayer you are the ones paying out the monies.

Pablo...... you appear to be highly educated, so shouldn't you be able to make your points without being rude and belittling the members of oldgas.....try showing a little class.

Blange..... The only Pick program I was aware of in the PNW was called the PIK program....... Payment In Kind.... which was instead of the Government paying you in cash they gave you a certain number of bushels of the crop you raise so they could get rid of their surplus grains they had in storage.
The program they have around here to get payed for not raising any crops is the Conservation Reserve Program....... CRP.
I'm pretty sure the land had to raise crops at one time to be able to qualify for it.
Not all land qualifies for CRP.
bob




[This message has been edited by huskybob (edited 05-28-2007).]

Bob comment: "because as the taxpayer you are the ones paying out the monies."

Not true!! Taxpayers DO NOT pay out any "monies" to oil companies. Again, do some real homework. Here's a blurb from the House website...

"H.R. 6 includes two components that will roll back the unnecessary tax benefits and costly federal oil and gas leasing provisions included in the Energy Policy Act of 2005. The legislation will also correct the botched leases issued by the Interior Department between 1998 and 1999, and send a clear message that these abuses will no longer be tolerated. The Government Accountability Office (GAO) estimates this blunder, which erroneously allowed lessees off the hook for making royalty payments, could cost the Federal Treasury up to $10 billion in revenues."

Democrats love to describe accelerated tax deductions and incentives as "subsidies". As I previously stated, these tax benefits were designed to encourage deep water drilling in the Gulf of Mexico. By the way, any deep water prospect requires capital expenditures of several BILLION dollars before the first drop of oil is produced. Of course, I wouldn't expect a novice critic to understand that fact.

In addition, the referenced "botched leases" for the deep water prospects were solely the product of the Department of the Interior and had nothing to do with the oil companies. The DOI simply neglected to include escalating rates for higher oil prices. Royalties have been and will continue to be paid to the Federal government. Of course, Democrats love to bring this up as an example of subsidies for "big oil".

Now, I intend to enjoy the rest of the holiday. Continue to wallow in misinformation, if you choose. Good day.

We all express our feelings based upon our bias and everyone has a bias on every topic, from the poor to the wealthiest people and for all businesses. It is a given that the world is dollar driven and the high oil and gas prices effect us all.

Most people do not tend to think very far into the future. Universities produce many people known as futurist. Extremely intelligent people that examine the future and try to predict conditions and events that most of us seldom consider. If a futurist of thirty years ago would have considered that there would be no more refineries built in the US what do you think their thoughts would have been knowing that the population was increasing, as it did.

Below is a quote from one of Pablo’s previous posts:

“First of all, the main reason that petroleum products prices have been going higher is increased demand and not enough surplus capacity. The primary reason for the lag in supply is the bottleneck in the refining and distribution infrastructure. There have been no refineries built in the USA in over thirty years. Blame this on government regulation and historically poor refining and marketing economics.”

I believe an additional contributing factor are the large contributions given by big business to fund political candidates and parties. They ARE given additional considerations.

It's simple, we need more choices in energy!


Mick

Huskybob: "Pablo...... you appear to be highly educated, so shouldn't you be able to make your points without being rude and belittling the members of oldgas.....try showing a little class."

Well, maybe I should. I started out merely trying to educate and encourage folks to grasp and understand the big picture. But I'm like Jim Cramer, sometimes it's not about making friends but finding truth and fact. I have little patience with some of the small-minded talk out here.

I've worked in the oil industry for 23 years and every oil company is like any other business entity...thousands of people doing their jobs to the best of their abilities in a legal, honest and responsible manner. The caricature of the fat cat with the big cigar is a product of the newspapers and comic strips. Oil companies work in a highly competitive environment both economically and politically. Of course, like any other business oil companies will use any incentive extended legally by Congress.

Have a great holiday!!

I said I wouldn't comment. I lied.
Paul, any shortfall in the Budget is made up by the taxpayer. That is in Econ 101.

Pablo did you read my post where I commented on Congress forgiving the oil revenues on the North Slope of Alaska? We can't call that a subsidy can we, so how about calling it a gift. Pretty damn nice gift from the American people wasn't it. What gift do we get from the oil companies in return........... a jar of Vaseline. You do have a attitude over this and have admitted your oil connection, are you also a lawyer? Rave on. Just an old vet from Wis.

TIME OUT
LET'S ALL HAVE A COLD ONE.
db

Way to go Paddy!!
Now you have a renewed version of the Mason-Dixon conflict going on.

Professor you were absolutely right. That Ice Cold Coors did hit the spot. Gas prices range from $3.22 to $3.45 here today.

Coors !
That's what they swall'er in Colo.
Thought yaw'll had BETTER STUFF than that up there !

Colorado Kool-aid!!!!! i'm reaching for one myself....

Hard to find good beer up here now. Oly, Hamms, Pabst Blue Ribbon, Rainier and Lucky are gone. Mostly foo, foo micros now. LOL The old timers are getting the shakes up here. Stuck with Coors I guess.

Still holding at $3.11 per gallon for the cheap stuff.
What is it in your neck of the woods?
thanks Jeff-ro for reminding everyone what this topic is about.
On the subject of beer......I like Miller.
I was aways told and still believe the best tasting beer is FREE BEER!!!!
So whatever brand you bring Dick to Iowa gas, Jeff and I will help you drink it and it will taste just fine.

Paddy.....Wanted. Cheap gas and FREE BEER!!

Arco stations selling regular here for $3.29 a gallon.

Make my own brew: Old Factory Whistle--One blast and you're through for the day!

Cheers =:> )

I forgot to answer the question!
Gas at Imperial Oil station here in the Great White North (Southern Ontario) today was $1.089C per liter.
That works out to $4.94C per Imperial Gallon.
At today's exchange rate of $1.0815USD per $1.00C, that works out to $3.80USD per USGallon.

(There's 3.78 liters in 1 USGallon.)

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH

"LOVE IS IN THE AIR"

WAY TO GO DICK !!!! YOU REALLY GOT THINGS TURNED AROUND IN A HURRY.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH LOVE IS IN THE AIR

Hey Dick...You said "Time Out - Lets all have a cold one" Will that effect my beer prices? You know, supply and demand issue we all have been reading about.(LOL)

Interesting topic...I just dont feel educated enough to chime in.

On this day, a BIG thanks to all veterans...I buried my father last week, who was a Korean war vet, made me proud to have his Army issued flag next to him at his funeral.

Kurt

[This message has been edited by K F H (edited 05-28-2007).]

DANG!!!!!

I wish the powers to be would go and and look at what I posted on another thread.... AND THIS GOES ON!!!!