Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums Showcase and Stories, Petroliana My Next Sign Restoration

I picked up this great backlit deco style sign this past weekend. It was a Monarch Ranges sign that has seen better days, but the internals ar new. As soon as I saw it I knew If I could get T-way to make me a backlit decal for it in Red Indian it will look killer.

I quickly contacted Jim and he sent me the pic of the artwork that will be placed on a new glass piece. The overall size of the display area is 12" x 24". I just now need to get the pieces to the puzzle todether and re paint the sign and i believe it will be a stunning piece...Stay tuned. I will post the end results.

Thanks to Jim for moving so quickly on this!

C'mon--Do it in Cities Service! It'll be more saleable when you get tired of it!

bought a firestone,sign that someone has done this to. Had several look at it,and said stay away. But the back of it was old and I took a chance.I'm building in to the top of shelf to hold Firestone cans, and will it enjoy it just the same.Didn't pay big bucks which is well suited to my purse strings.

Sign restoration would be Monarch...
Fantasy creation is Red Indian...

Thanks for your input and enlightening the forum on your knowledge!

No problemo..

it's bad to sacrify a splendid sign, the monarch was really great and could be easyly restored, and the logotype of the monarch logo is just fabulous.

I really like that lighted frame! Never seen one before. Anyone have one for sale?

I placed an order with T-way and he promptly designed my new red indian sign to the dimensions I required. I was slow getting back to this project after the initial post. I just appied the first coat of paint the other night. Tonight I applied the T-ways work to a fresh piece of glass. I had to place it inside the sign to get a feel for the overall look and I must say it looks great even unfinished. It will now be completed this weekend. Will post pics of it permanently installed and lit up.

Thanks T-way..great work on this!

This is how it starts with made up signs...and below is how it ends up for some unknowing sucker...great description..

ebay 330743877131

that looks like the same sign?..

Minuteman, is that the same sign?

I hope its not! Wow...

Sure does look like the same sign, except someone threw some dirt inside if it is. If this is the same sign this guy should pack his bags and leave the site.

I also hope GasCan didnt get this one.

I looked pretty hard and can't find any differences.

Except for the chrome in the eBay pic on the sides not being covered up.

In the pic on here it just appears to be taped off. Which would make sense if it was gonna be sprayed.

Bingo...

To help Colin's defense,I attended his auction back in the spring when he sold this item.Colin clearly stated before selling the item that it was not an original sign but simply a fantasy piece.Whoever bought this at his auction I'm sure is the one to point fingers at.

The point is, STOP making this junk and painting old cans with new graphics. A REAL collector would be collecting artifacts NOT making stuff up that eventually helps ruin the hobby. Why was that decal not dated? Many here are just as bad as the jokers from India/Argentina.

Same old story. Original creator puts it through an auction,says its a fantasy piece or with no description or described as age unknown to clear their conscience. The next owner adds his 2 cents and the third or fourth owner gets screwed big time. I contacted the buyer-through feedback- and told him its fake with a link to this thread. He'll probably put it through another auction and the cycle will continue. Nice job Colin. Beutiful piece---NOT!

So this piece wasn't made for an individual's own collection but was made to sell in an auction with other Red Indian items less than a month later? This really sucks for the buyer who just paid $1026 + $150 shipping for it, thinking it was a legit piece.

I agree,but recently i built close to original hanging brackets for my original Ford oval signs so I could display them.I have no intentions of selling them but when i'm on my death bed should i tell my wife to discard these brackets prior to her auction?

This isn't the first fake light up to bring GOOD money on eBay latley... There has been a rash of plastic and reverse painted signs sell on eBay in the last few months... Is not hard to find an older, undesirable light up and put a new face in it and pass it off as original... It all goes back to knowing what your buying... The buyer of that red Indian sign should have known that the vintage of the ligh up didn't match the vintage of the Red Indian image....

...wouldn't hurt to scribe 'REPRO' on the back side of the bracket with your Dremel...

I totally agree that Fantasy pieces should be dated so these type of unfortunate circumstances do not happen; also, I am scratching my head as to why the “creator” sold the piece in the first place…..all excited one minute and then ???? On the other side of this the buyers need to do their research and "think" with their head and not their heart. If you look at the pictures on E-Bay you can clearly see that the outside of the piece is in near mint condition where the inside is aged correct for the time period of when it was first manufactured; you have to think to yourself "hmmm" why is the inside not as nice as the outside?

No, I saw this in June and was smart enough to see it wasn't real. I think the current owner would be smart to keep it, mark it and lick his wounds, or paint it white and have T-way or someone re-make the original Monarch glass. Love the sign box, hate the fact this got passed off along the line as something it isn't.

...only took a month to get over it...and 'remaking' the original Monarch glass won't really help either, unless it's well-marked...the only value is in the can...

maybe the buyer is happy and knows what he bought? I was watching a television show the other night, it was showcasing a collection of cars. the owner was proud of his 1,000,000 dollar collection. the walls behind the cars were littered with reproduction signs. I've come to the realization that people with money just don't care about same things that I do.

I still don't think it's right the sign wasn't marked appropriately. if the buyer is UN happy hopefully he can get his money back.

I stand on reproductions and fantasy items hasn't changed

I wish people were not so greedy for $$$. Go out and get a job and earn your keep like most of us

Junior25 facts are facts. Fact: Colin made this sign and profited from the sale of it. Fact: Colin didn't mark it properly and didn't do his part to protect future potential buyers. He has been in the hobby long enough to know better. Fact: This sign is going to continue to be a problem.

What if's are; what if's. We have all heard...What if your aunt had gonads would she be your uncle? Well you get my drift....

I think this situation is a good example of why we "ALL" have to be very vigilant in protecting our reputations as well as this hobby. Too late to do anything now as far as this sign is concerned. It would be a real shame if we just sat here pointing fingers at each other and missed out on the opportunity to acknowledge what really needs to be done.

Great suggestions have already been thrown out; on what should be done in the future. Let's be mature and not let the drama divide us and another opportunity to take action pass us by. Let's act like the concerned collector's that we are; and collectively move forward with plan.

The plan is simple....let's learn from this. This situation clearly illustrates the need for all items to be dated. Whether it is decal, or a vintage housing that is being repurposed. Hand held engarver's are cheap...future items should get engarved on the back (not inside as sign would have to be apart to be read).

Gentlemen, we have the power to make a difference and protect future generations from this. And, we owe that to this great hobby. But, we have to decide now and take the iniative now to do what needs to be done.

By belittling each other, name calling, finger pointing, jumping to conclusions, being belligerent.....is not going to make this situation go away. But rather, all that bickering will only, prevent us from doing what we need to do. If we know what the problem is then we also know what we need to do to make a difference. That choice is an individual choice and it can only begin with you (me).

Enough said by me!

Does T-way not regularly date this type of work?

Wow...The downstream effect of this cool little sign jacking somone for a grand is amazing. I like the idea of marking the decal with a small something.

Before I never would have thought something like this would happen but this post has enlightened me.

Ouch....

Dave, well said....

The Membership here on Oldgas have commented and discussed unmarked items for more years than I have been a Member...

This post, IMO, is a "sledge hammer to the forehead" for everyone in the Hobby... We have talked over and over "what might happen" in the future.... Here we see the results of such an item... Not 3 years, 5 years, 10 years "down the road"... Immediately and within a few different hands... It changed from a great looking Fantasy item.... To an Original Viable Collector's Rare Find....

As said here many times, IF YOU MAKE IT, MARK IT.
Once it leaves YOUR possession you have NO CONTROL of how it will be represented.

On ebay, I understand that if you buy something then find out it's a Fake/Repop & MARK IT, seller does Not have to Honor a Return as item is being returned in an Altered condition.

How many other place in todays economy can you see that kind of return on investment? The main motivation of people making fantasy/ fake items is to make money. They could care less on the future of this hobby...period. Making and selling these items is easy money. Many of us have the integrity to not do such a thing even with our vast knowledge. We will never stop the people that produce the junk...education is the most valuable thing you can have in this hobby. Know what you are buying and dont be so fast to hand over the cash. Look on ebay...1/3 of the items listed are either fake or fantasy. The people will always make this stuff because everyday a new collector comes into the hobby and they are waiting for them to buy this *****. Its a business. Fake items are all over today. Its the buyers job to know what they are buying.

Ya, it is too bad that in this hugely popular hobby that some people are still looking to make some big $$$ on known fakes.The maker of that piece used to post here quite a lot.Makes you wonder what other sketchy items he runs through his auction business? You'll lose a lot of customers doing that.Once bitten twice shy!

I have bought several things from Colin !always well represented,and original. Am a little surprised by this,and would like to hear his side of it.also t-way always dates his stuff as far as I know. Yeah,it sucks that this happened,but I also agree a buyer should educate himself.there are two sides to every story. Defiinatly got problems with the eBay seller!

WE have discussed this MANY MANY Times in the past. There is no way to permanently mark an item w/o destroying the face/display side of any item that some FOOL/FRAUDSTER can't cover, fill, grind, hide or remove all traces.

I'm sure that 1970mach Never thought of selling this item when it was made or thought that having a Vinyl adhesive adv glass was enough of a dead give away it wouldn't have to be Dated.

I know a few other auction houses that some collectors will not buy from because of this same exact thing. Once there is a piece like this sold it makes you start questioning other items at the auction and makes you hestitate to bid, even on items that you are pretty sure are legit. That little bit of doubt can really affect the market value of an original piece.

...bottom line is, he shouldn't have sold it...or, he could have stuck the worn-out Monarch glass back in, before selling it, and smashed the fake glass...problem solved!

Just curious if anybody contacted the buyer to get their input?

I just send an e-mail to the buyer with this thread in the message to see if he can get a refund from the seller

Now that's a GOOD MAN!

Lol! Wow! Problem solved!

Sad to see this thread fade away.
This is THE perfect example of how a sign can be "made" from an original for one's own
collection and become a blemish on the gas & oil collectible field forever.

We got to see 1970 mach come here showing of his handy work in creating this sign
We got to see it go to auction AS A FANTASY PIECE
We got to see it immediately and fraudulently resold on ebay as a true original for over $1,000
I would love to see it come full circle and hear from the buyer (rrhovercraft) to get his take after he learn of the true origin.

This thread should resurface once in a while so new collectors can see first hand how quickly and easily they can become victims (or accomplices) on what starts out as just tinkering around.

Nucky....... did you ever hear back from the "unknowing sucker" er I mean buyer?

With public name calling like that, why would he?

I think this topic should be made a sticky topic that stays at the top.

I know the creator, and emailed the seller as well as the buyer at the time of auction/auction end. I put the emails at the bottom of this post, a good read.

I am chiming in here because some people on here think 1970mach (Colin) is somehow guilty of misrepresentation. In fact he is one of the most stand up guys I know in the hobby. I was at his sale, he sold it as nothing more than what it is. It sold at his auction for no more than $200 if I recall which was reasonable. To the guys that whine about how this should have been dated or marked fantasy: a quick inspection of this sign is all it would have taken anyone to determine that this was not an original sign in any way. It is obvious! If there are people in this hobby that will shell out a quick grand for something with a Red Indian sticker on it, well, they suffer from Red Indian psycosis. I have seen this before, and there will be more people to come. Jumping into this hobby, and failing to eduacte yourself on just what is "real" or not, is a persons own fault, I don't care how deep their pockets are.

ebay seller celine119 is the evil one. Here for everyone to read are my emails to her during the auction, my emails to the buyer after the auction, and the responses. Also, for what it is worth, I complained to ebay "flagged the item" several times different ways - to no avail, not even a response.



"Dear celine119,I am reading this auction and I cannot believe what I am seeing. This is not rare, it is not an original Red Indian piece in ANY WAY. What you have advertised is FRAUD. You may believe that it is original or rare, but in reality it is what is called a FANTASY piece... Where did it come from? My friends imagination, that is where. The frame originally was to advertise a range! Read for yourself in the link below, and please correct your auction. http://oldgas.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=37915&Number=245828#Post245828"

RESPONSE: "Thanks for your info.- celine119"

EMAIL TO BUYER: "Dear rrhovercraft,Hello. Were you happy with the Red Indian sign you bought? I was watching the item as the seller described it as original etc. It was far from what he was claiming, I was suprised it went for the money it did. A fine fellow I know made this sign, here is some info on it. I am not trying to cause trouble, but some people have no morals. http://oldgas.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=252758&Searchpage=1&Main=37915&Words=red+indian&Search=true#Post252758"

EMAIL FROM BUYER:"Hi: I realized after I got it it wasn`t original, so not real happy but have chalked it up to a bad choice and will live with it.THNX/Rick- rrhovercraft"

2nd EMAIL FROM BUYER: "Hi: Information that the seller was made aware of origins changes my attitude and I am goig to try to get some resolution and have contacted the seller .Thank you so much for your dilligence./Rick- rrhovercraft"

EMAIL FROM SELLER:"Thanks for alerting my buyer about his purchase from me.However u failed to mention that the sign is an original sign. I never said it was a OEM sign.It is in fact a hand made sign using a Monarch casing.It is rare because no other exists.So therefore this is no Fraud.May I suggest next time you get yourself in a tizzy check the wording of the auction. - celine119"

EMAIL TO SELLER:"Dear celine119,"Thanks for alerting my buyer about his purchase from me" You are welcome, someone had to do it. "However u failed to mention that the sign is an original sign." There is nothing original about it. It actually should be correctly referred to as a *fantasy* sign as it was never produced in such a manner by Red Indian, and fantasy items are not original items. A 1940s light up sign for Ranges that is stripped and re-done with 2011 paint and a 2011 sticker is definitely no longer original. "I never said it was a OEM sign." To say it is original suggests that it is an OEM product. "It is in fact a hand made sign using a Monarch casing." That is true, and if you stated that in the auction (when I emailed you that info) then your buyer would not have paid a thousand dollars for it, guaranteed. "It is rare because no other exists." Well I guess if that is true, I put a Red Indian sticker on my dust pan today and I might have a very rare dust pan now. "So therefore this is no Fraud." I am going to assume you are not a collector and have no scruples when it comes to misrepresenting an item in order to gain financially. "May I suggest next time you get yourself in a tizzy check the wording of the auction." I watched a poor guy pay a grand for a fantasy (fake) sign because you said it was original. You also failed to update the auction when I sent you the real origins of the sign. Good luck with any complaints against you. Please do not contact me again or I will file a grievance with ebay."



Colin (1970mach) is a good standing member on here, and placing blame on him is not right; I would go as far to say his is an asset to the board. He may not end up coming back to post some of his cool projects or finds or whatever if the community takes an undeserved dump on him.

When I & Others were selling my Copy/Fantasy cans on ebay, I INSISTED that sellers state in description what they were & are Dated. Even at that some cans Sold in the $200 range.
You can't protect everyone & some will bid to own even IF Items are Dated/MARKED FANTASY.

With eBay you cannot do a "quick inspection"? Sometimes you have to rely on the honesty of a seller, or the item itself? Unfortunately in this case neither are honest (the eBay seller or the sign).
My understanding of this thread is not to chastise 1970mach, but to show how putting a simple (undated) sticker on a sign can easily turn into a $1,000 fraud.
Bottom line, if it were dated, there would be one less crook that won and one less collector that got taken.
I have no doubt that 1970mach would have done it differently if given the chance.

I don't visit this sight much more these days..Not because of this post which I was only informed about yesterday from Barn Raider, but because at the time it became a sight about a bunch of grumpy men griping about newbies and their stupid questions, or about putting prices on their items for sale or complaining about members asking values of items and etc etc...

When I did try to visit back to the sight over about a 6 month period after the FANTASY Red Indian sign sold I could not log in. tried several times but wasn't overly concerned. Finally I emailed Jim only to get his explanation that I was not suspended from the site but given limited access because I sold a fantasy sign!! I could get to the site but could not log in to me = suspended.

I don't know who complained enough to complain about this travesty that had been committed to Jim but here was Jim's explanation for my account being labeled as limited access.

"Many members, myself included, were so dismayed by the lighted "Red Indian" sign that you created and sold as original. That sign situation was quite a shock for me and other moderators. We then placed your forum account on a limited features setting to review activity"


After getting the explanation for my limited access I realized then, not much had changed with this site and it starts at the top. still stayed away for a period but now I do visit the site at least once a week.

I have never made any other fantasy signs except this one. The auction hall was full of petroliana collectors. It was sold as a fantasy sign, and with my time and effort and cost I about broke even on it. It was unfortunate that the only item that a eBayer/ non collector could have bought was my sign. I emailed her when I learned it was up on eBay, I emailed the buyer afterwards..even waited for his comments on the transaction. He was very happy with the sign. Lets face it he could have got all his money back through Paypal protection if he had listened to me or Barn Raider or if eBay cared about protecting buyers..At some point you throw your hands in the air and say..You can't fix Stupid.

Thanks to those who have stood up for me in my past transactions with you. I have sold many thousands of dollars woth of signs to members on this site with no issues.

If I am not banned again for my rant, I will be back on the site periodically but mostly for reading post and not as a contributor and advertising any upcoming Petroliana auctions.

I still committ that this is still the best Petroliana Site Jim does a great job adminisrating it as do the moderators. However when you have a public forum such as this it makes it too easy to for 1 member to throw good members under the bus and then everyone hops on!

You are right, Colin, that responsibility for this site starts at the top. I just might be the chief "grumpy old man" when it comes to unmarked reproduction items that later get sold as originals. But I believe that the vast majority of collectors here are pretty much as grumpy about that issue as I am. So, yes, not much has changed.

I also believe that the maker of an unmarked reproduction sign has the responsibility for how that item is represented to be sold as it changes ownership not only in the first transaction, but also the second time and all the others down the line. That is why marking the date or the word "reproduction" on the sign is so important. To not mark it permanently is to not take that responsibility seriously.

You were put on limited privileges membership status at that time because this site does take a strong stand on unmarked reproductions. Later, after communicating with you, I felt that you didn't intend for anyone to be defrauded by the repro/original misrepresentation later on. Your account was returned to normal, hoping that you realized the seriousness of the unmarked repro problem after this one incident.