Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums General Petroliana Discussion MY GAS PUMP ID BOOKS

Well, we I sold the last copy of the book I had available. The book is out of print and I don't know of any source of one in new condition. Did see one on Amazon, it was used and the guy wanted $165.00 for it.

I have been asked to write a third edition, not by a publisher, but by an investor. Many questions need to be answered. One of the biggest problens I have is what should be included, should I:

Cover pumps that go beyond the 1965 I have been using?
Cover more items besides pumps (the 1st ed. had many lubsters that were eliminated in the 2nd ed.)?
In the 2nd ed. I included outside sight glasses, should I include things like the sticks that Tim has been workding on?
If you have a picture of a pump that is not in the book would you care to see it in the book for everyone to share?
What would you like to see included or expanded on?
What would you eliminate if anything?

Any comment one way or another would be appreciated.

Jack Sim

I think another edition would be a good idea if you are up to it.

Having pumps that go beyond 1965 is a good idea. Another thing to consider is giving the pumps a rarity scale (1-10) and maybe a range of value instead of a hard number.

Lubesters, variations and options available on pump models, more actual pics instead of drawings, hard back maybe instead of paperback, add pumps that are missing if at all possible. Eliminate pricing. It would be awesome to see a third and final edition!

Jack, I'll go along with what was said about "Actual Photographs " of some of the less common pumps , Keese, Clear Vision , Crouse , Springfield , St Louis , Brown, etc. Then too, I know Half tones increase the price of book threefold . I was in the graphic arts industry and yes, I have a working knowledge of what happens to a photo when it's made for publication .

Perhaps a couple of shots of some of the really rare or hardly ever seen dispensers might be in order . having it as a Hardback definitely increases the value , but , you have to convince a publisher it's worth the extra money to invest in it .

I never asked the publisher for a re run of a Political science book I did before I let Scott Anderson run off with a lot of material he used in his book, Check the Oil . At that time , the market was too scattered and I too was badgered as to "Values " for a re run . Since I refused , the two publishers simply told me , It wouldn't be a book they could invest in.

Ed Shaver

My worthless opinion is skip the valuation. It seems like as soon as you publish it, the values will already be outdated. Especially with the current volatility of the market.

If it includes pricing it also seems to "date" a book and can give it a shelf life. It can be viewed as "outdated" after the next person comes along with new pricing. If this truly will be your last edition, leaving pricing off may give it more staying power as new folks come into the hobby.

Jack,
Another edition would be awesome!!
If you do end up doing another, how about getting the info that has been posted on here in print regarding visible pump gallon markers identification. Visible pump handle identification, and/or gas nozzle identification would also be great.
Just a couple ideas.

Ryan

Jack I have your second edition gas pump book and it has educated me a lot on pumps and the history of the mfg companies and I want to say you did a wonderful job , I'm sure it would be a lot of work but the brass nozzle identification idea would be great ,and possibly take the pump identification to 1970 , as the stainless pumps are starting to take off it seems now for sure.You can Put me down for a book order if you decide to do another ! And thank you once again for all of your hard work and dedication to this hobby , my son is 8 and loves the gas pump book as well.

HI Jack - definitely you should do another version, and I have several photos you can use...I think adding Tim's 'sticks' is also a good idea...

What is Tim's sticks?

Thanks

Tim's great thread on the different styles of gallon markers for the different Visibles, Doug...

http://www.oldgas.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=385362&page=1

Jack, if you do decide to publish a "3rd Edition", I will be in line to purchase at least 1 copy... Most likely 2... One for the Book Shelf and one for the Baja....

I plan on putting Tim Rohr's research results and pictures in our Gas Pump Image Album soon.

Jack, I have both of your books and would gladly buy another. I like the idea of covering more of the 60's and 70's pumps as well as a price range, actual pictures and perhapes a scale for grading a pump's condition. Price pretty much gives someone an idea of how rare a pump is. Info on lubsters, oil cabinets and nozzles would be great too. Heck I like the whole idea and would consider it an honor to offer you pictures.

Thanks for all you've done for the hobby!

Jack,

Your books and this website plus the magazines are what educates the people in this hobby. You have done a service to this hobby that can't be "thanked" enough....I know, buy the new book and that will be thanks enough..LOL. I keep a copy of both editions in 3 locations, my shop, my truck and in my home, so that means if you do a 3rd edition you can put me down for at least 3 plus I have it on Kindle in my phone.

All your suggestions plus the input you are getting would make the best book ever. A 3rd edition should include everything you had in the first two combined, some were left out of the 2nd edition. I really like the idea of a "price range". It helps to have some kind of price listed because you have to start somewhere. More experienced pump people might not pay attention to the price listed but to someone new to the hobby this could prove invaluable.

In closing I would only like to add.........PLEASE do another book!

Tom.

I will help you out for free, if it helps the hobby stay strong, I'll be glad to help out Jack. I like the rarity scale idea as well. There are some necessary changes that need to be addressed such as adding pumps that are not listed (Martin & Schwartz model #100 visible) or a twin Ferro clockface #100T, I could go on and on. Some prices are going up and the Bible needs to change along with that in order to help ALL of us out. Milestones pumps aren't $1200 bucks anymore and neither is a Sharmeter. Again, if you need any help at all with pricing, pictures, or actual printing (I know a good commercial printer here in Ohio where I was a pressman for 18 years) I would be glad to help you out Jack. 330-428-1125 Kind Regards, Goober P.S. See you in Des Moines, I'll buy the 1st one.

I have 3 of each edition. I keep one of ea in my truck & near the PC. With the price of one on Amazon, maybe I should entertain offers! LOL
I vote for no pricing [everyone can add their own w/ little postie notes or pencil in].
10 guys across the country can't accurately est. the Correct value of every pump ID'd, let alone all the extras that might be included in 3rd edition.
Just as soon as a pump is given a rarity of 9-10, w/i a year 3-4 will show-up on ebay for sale @ 2-3X the est book value.

DO IT, I need 3.

Addressing a few things that have been suggested.

Using actual pictures. Who is going to take 4000 pictures and who is going to tell me where these 4000 actual pumps are? I don't think I have that many years left in my life. Not going to happen. Actually photos do not show the features of a pump like the drawings I used from the original factory literature. When I did get actual pictures they were usually taken in front of the persons whole collection, it was difficult to determine where the pump ended and the Texaco sign started.

Hardback. This will be up to the investor, but I doubt it will happen.

Eliminate pricing. I didn't want to put values in either of the books but the publisher said no values, no books. I already get at least one request per day from museums, pickers, etc. wanting me to tell them the value of something they have, can you imagine how many calls I would get from just the purchasers of the book. Maybe a price range would be better.

Already have invested over $40,000 purchasing gas pump literature that my wife will have a hard time getting rid of, I really don't want to purchase anymore, plus, there doesn't seem to be as much being offered on Ebay anymore. The last few brochures that did appear sold for over $50.00 each, this is too much to pay to add just one picture to the book. Additional pump pictures would have to come from the collectors.

There is one other collector of gas pump literature, I have approached him and suggested we combine our collections in one great book, but he doesn't want to do it. My feeling is, we will never see what he has.

Keep the suggestions coming.

Jack Sim

Jack, You & I both know Cindy won't have a problem w/ Recovering your part of the house after your gone! OR Spending anything you leave!

You can always count on DB bringing things back to earth.

Thanks Dick.

Jack

Having just purchased one of Jack's last copies, I'm really enjoying having it. Maybe if there can't be actual color pics, there could be some shown in gas company colors as they were when they were first introduced. For instance if texaco (or any gas co.) used alot of a certain pump they could be shown in the colors the company used at the time. I know prices in this hobby change all the time, but they do give an idea in value comparing different pumps, as rare doesn't necessarily mean valueable, desireability probably affects price more than rarity. In any case, DO another book Jack!

Jack wonder how many calls you would get wanting you to rate a pump if you gave a range. Don't think there is a easy answer.
I would rather see a scale system of how rare pump is. That would be hard I'm sure researching companies as to how many they produced etc. I know you state how few have been found on some and that really perks my interest.

As much as I would like you to do another book,at your age I wouldn't. But this may be something that gives you pleasure if so go for it. Otherwise I would buy me a new set of darts and enjoy.

Jack,another book would be great.I personally think the previous two are spot on! Any additional info in the next one would just be a great bonus! Thanks for the hard work you have done.It is very much appreciated.Great books!

A third book would be great and I am sure everyone will be buying at least one. I would put value ranges in and add any pumps not yet in it that you know about with either actual pictures or drawings if you have them. Pumps beyond 1965 I am not sure about as they get kind of plain and they all seem to look similair. As for lubesters I would drop those but sections on different tops, nozzles, gallon markers, ad glass ect would be great.

A lot more work than most of us probably know but if you want to do it would help the hobby and be much appreciated.

A third book would be great. What ever you do to it, I would buy a couple. If I could make only one change to a possible third book it would be to add more photos. Maybe a couple per page would make me happy. I know it is more work, but I would be willing to share any of my pumps for the book. I would send you some over all shots of them and if you wanted to use any I would move the ones you chose out in front of my garage with the door down so there would be a neutral backround. That should help a little in being able to use the picture.

Jack
Another book would be great. If you do another book, I have some new pictures of Rush pumps that no one has ever seen and we can add 4 or 5 new model numbers that are not in your last book. I even have pictures of the internal parts of a coin operated Rush stove pipe.
I could do without the pumps after 1965 but like price range and rarity scale. I would add pic's of correct nozzles that go with the pump.
I think having pictures with a lot of detail are a big help when your trying to find a correct part that is missing on a pump.
If you do another book I think it will be about 4 inches thick when you'r finished.

Lynn Senesac

Hey Jack , How aboot a Canadian pump section? Vulcanizer, Clearvision ect. Us Canucks will send you pics if you need them. Thanks for the first 2 ,I've learned alot! Dave

Jack, as you have noted before... You write your books for the Hobby and the Hobbyist... They are not directed towards a specific segment of the Hobby, but instead for the Hobby as a whole...

As such, I would like to see a small change, if a 3rd Edition comes to fruition.

My time in the Hobby, is rapidly coming to a conclusion. As the death of Wendell, reminded me...

New blood, is driving the Hobby more and more. As such, because of a rise in prices on the "older more desirable" pumps... More and more of the new Hobbyists are looking at the pumps built in the mid 60s to later 70s... I personally would like to see a small section of a "New" Edition, dedicated to these "New Hobbyists"... Those that are buying the "newer" model of pump, partly because they are more affordable and partly because they were/are the ones they remember from their younger years...

I don't yet have all of the "Life Experiences" that you and some of the other "Crotchety Old Farts" that reside on Oldgas have...(but I'm gaining rapidly... LOL)

But, I know when I started in the Hobby I gravitated to the pumps I remembered; first... And then the "beauty and wonder" of the "older pumps" became apparent... I believe that is still true....

As to a Personal wish list... The longer one is in the Hobby and the more specific their Collecting becomes.... The longer their "wish list" becomes... Or atleast, that is the way it is for me!

Whatever you want to add to a 3rd Edition, I do believe will be fine with most in the Hobby! I know it will be for me!!

Jack have you thought about putting out a CD instead of a book. All the suggestions have merit but the book would be large and would probably drive up the cost. A CD would give you more control of what you want to publish. On the down side it would be easy to copy and that would cost you in the long run. Richard

Canadian pumps: During the writing of both books I only found original literature on one Canadian made pump. It was easy to leave them out because I didn't have anything on any of them.

CD: First of all, an author does not make much writing the book and the royalities don't amount to much when they are spread out over 5-6 years, the only way an author can make any money is to sell the book.
I was just about the only person to sell the first edition because I was the only person who knew about the book, I made a little money.
When the second book came out a number of collectors purchased quantities and we selling the books for $23.00 instead of the $34.95 (cover price) I was selling them for. I sold very few of them and didn't make much on the 2nd ed.
We would love to put the book on a CD if there was no way it could be copied which I believe would happen.

Jack

I think that is a Wise Choice Jack.
There isn't anything made/recorded that can't be copied [even stating in the front of ALL BOOKS "All Rights Reserved etc..........."]. Some think that because they Bought the book/CD, they can do as they please w/ the information [copy/photograph to post on web sites, print copies for friends].

Even Amazon has Ignored "All Rights Reserved etc..........." to post the complete book on their web site. What is to stop Google/Bing/etc. from doing the same?

Hello Jack,

I greatly appreciate all the work you have put into this hobby and how much of a resource the book is to folks. I bought both copies of the book and would buy the 3rd edition if you decide to do it.

1) I think you should put in Canadian pumps in the book. Like Bowser's 2 different twin visibles and the Clear Vision pumps, etc. (I know it would be a lot of work, but think of the fun you would have touring Canada, lol.)

2) I also agree with folks about adding new pumps to the book.

3) I still think you should keep prices but that needs to be updated as well. I also like the pump rarity rating like others have mentioned.

4) I don't think adding lubsters is a good idea. It would be nice info to have but the book would get bigger and bigger. I think that this should be in another book and with other gas station memorabilia, air meters and trinkets. Also I know that is a lot of extra work.

5) I think you should only use pics if you don't have sales literature. Sales literature may not always be pretty but will save you time and hassle as well as might keep price of book more affordable. Also the problem with pics is that the pump may not be 100% original or may be missing parts. (Cant be helped if you don't have sales literature for the pump, and in that case any pic would be better than none most of the time.)

I hope this helps you out Jack not that my opinion is worth much.

Sincerely,

Easy G. Butler

It would be great to know the glass cylinder sizes for the visible's, I know this is a little off course maybe better in a restoration guide, but it would sure help us lesser knowledged

TN

Your post, the last one since April gave me the chance to review all the above suggestions.

It is very oblivious no publishing company is willing to publish any books like I wrote.

In August I will be meeting with a person who has suggested he might be willing to back the publishing of a third book.

In April, I threw out this post looking for opinions as to what all you guys would like to see in the third book.

I can do a third book, but not without your help. I have purchased all the literature I could find or afford. I cannot pay $50.00 for a piece of literature that will only add one picture to the book, therefore, what I will need is pictures of any pumps you might have that are not in the book now.

When the 2nd book was assembled I submitted 2000 images of gas pumps, the publisher chose to eliminate 100 of them. They didn't ask me if I agreed to the 100, they just eliminated.

So, there, are 100 more pumps for the book. In the last five years I have probably id another 200 pumps and If we extend the cut-off date to 1970, I figure another 150 pumps.

TN has suggested this: think you should put in Canadian pumps in the book. Like Bowser's 2 different twin visibles and the Clear Vision pumps, etc. (I know it would be a lot of work, but think of the fun you would have touring Canada, lol.)

Tn, please send me a unlimited credit card and Cindy and I will leave this weekend heading for Canada. I don't know where I will be going, but with your credit card I'm sure to have fun.

Seriously, SOMEBODY IN CANADA MUST HAVE SOME LITERATUE ON PUMPS THAT THEY CAN CONTRIBUTE.

As soon as I typed this I thought, here come the emails from the European guys wanting pictures of their pumps.

Somebody above suggest pictures of pump painted to colors of the oil companies. Well, back in 1995 when the Bennett Pump Co., closed their Muskegon factory, they invited me to come up and go through their literature. One of the things (I should say, boxes, I got was about 1000 blueprints showing how their pumps should be painted. These blueprints cover the era from about 1928 through 1940. For any given pump, there are about 10 different ways to paint, let say the 810 visible, all Texaco. Where am I going to even look for original pumps still having these paint schemes?

While we would all like to see color pictures of every paint scheme, it ain't going to happen. We need to be realistic when it comes to an ID book. My goal was to help everyone ID a pump, not to show every color it ever came in. Scott and Wayne are doing their best to do that.

Prior to the first book coming out, a guy sent me money for a copy. Then he emailed me asking if his pump was in the book. I said no, and he asked for his money back. I refunded his money, but I also told him that if he wanted to see his pump just go out in the garage and look at it, my book was to ID a pump he did not own.

I appreciate all the suggestions, but I must first ask all of you, please look at the cover of either book, it states 'IDENTIFICATION AND VALUE GUIDE."

So, now I need your help. Do any of you own or know of a pump or variation of any existing pump, that is not in the book. If so, would you please send me a picture of that pump. Any and all contributions will acknowledged in the front of the book.

Jack Sim

Jack , your books have been a big help to me. Through the winter up here there is alot of indoor nostalgia,collectibles and swap meets.There's always guys with tons of literature for cars,trucks ect.I will keep my eyes open for pump info from Vulcanizer ,S.S.E , Bowser ,Philip Geis and any others. Dave

Jack, I did a 1-24th scale model of a "Twin Ten " , a weird model known as a Kershaw. Since you don't do P-M's what is the best way I can photograph and send you pictures ? Ed Shaver

No Values.

Real Photos of pumps and lubesters.

Pumps up till the end of the 70's since buyers are displaying them with their 70's cars.

Jack, personally I believe as Mike does (for whatever that is worth... LOL) .... No Values....

By the time the 3rd Edition was completed, "proofed", printed and made avail to the Public...

Such values most likely would be/could be: 8 to 18 months "in the arrears"... Those experienced in the Hobby, should understand that... But, as the past has shown, too many will not understand and will "demand" answers to to why the values are not current...

IMO, much better just to eliminate values completely... Especially the way prices have "roller coastered" in the last few years...

Jack,

Have you ever thought to make a deal with your publisher to have a 'valueless' book connected to a website set up by said publisher/investor with the values updated every so many years that you and he/she determines. Perhaps the website could be maintained by a legit outfit like one of the reputable auction houses for a maintenance fee.

In my former line of work, books on insects and diseases of plants about 20 years ago, stopped making control recommendations because they would change by the time they went to print. Also some control products are not allowed in certain states. Doing this left them more room for pictures.

Instead county extension services across the U.S. would make up booklets or information sheets of controls that could be used with the books, and the booklets would be updated every few years. Now those 'booklets' are online.

strnge,

Would love to write a book with that had real photos of gas pumps. I figure, it would probably take me about three years assuming I knew exactly where all these pumps were and I was able to take two pictures per day. Of course I would need your help in letting me know where I can find say, a Wisconsin pump. Also I would need your help with the expenses I would incur during the three years I would be traveling around the U.S. I figure about $150.00 per day for about 1100 days. A round figure of $164,000 would cover my expenses. Of course this is only expenses, someone would have send money to Cindy for household expenses.
From anyone, upon receipt of a check sent to my bank I will set fourth upon this adventure.

It ain't going to happen!

Jack

HEY OLD MAN,
You & Cindy are Retired, both on Social Security, have interest coming in from investments/Retirement Fund[s], Both have Medicare[Obama Care], NO Mortgages, NO Car Payments, NO kids at home [Grand Kids, Maybe] to support, NO student loans.
MOST TAVERNS Here & in Canada have Darts Boards.
You have always said you wanted to see North America & you have Promised Cindy Another TRIP!
LOL

If you're going to do a third edition I would leave the value section out as others have suggested. Even if data from completed sales could be accumulated it would soon become outdated.

Not trying to ***** you off Jack, but if you do a third edition, do it with your eyes open. I really don't want to read for the next ten years at what great peril it was to write it, how many people ripped you off, and how newcomers to the hobby under appreciate your efforts. If it isn't going to be a labor of love then what's the point at this stage of the game.

Everyone on this site appreciates your effort and will support it by purchasing it. I have both pump books and the air meter book, they get a lot of use.

Very well said

Hey Jack your damn if you do and damn if you don't. The reason price are put into reference books is to give the reader an ideal of what is rare and what is not. If you look back at books written 20+ years ago, the rare stuff is still higher in value than the common stuff, Jack's book does this for you.

My vote is also in for eliminating the values. Do a rarity scale instead; if you have to for those that need help with knowing which pumps are collectible. Even though rarity alone doesn't make a pump desirable.

Do it because you enjoy it and not because you want the future generations indebted to you for your efforts. At times, your posts seem to leave the impression that you feel the past and current generations of pump collectors are somehow on the hook.

If there is a 3rd edition
my Veeder Root info could be added for just
the price of recognition of myself suppling
the information.
And you already have a copy of that
Joe

I wish I had more clock info

Rather than pick apart some of the things said above, I think it is time to move on.

I posted this because I really wanted to know what your opinions were, and you have spoken. Thank you for your comments.

As with the first two books anything I make from writing the book will come from how many I sell. Publishers don't pay you to write the book, they just give you a small royalty.

The person who will be paying to have the book printed is the one who will make decisions such as values/no values, etc.

Hopefully, sometime in September or before a decision will be make about a third book.

Thanks again for all your opinions, I asked for them, I just shouldn't have responded to them.

Jack Sim

This has most likely been asked before, but I guess I missed it.
Jack: How do you arrive at the Value Prices?
That has to be very hard to do. Areas of the country bring a wide variation in prices. Also supply and demand. At one auction a Wayne 60 can bring $1300 and at Peotone $1800. Supply and demand.
Thanks for your books either way, and ALL the hard work that goes into them.

Jack:

My question is this:
Is there a more economical way to produce and distribute the same data, yet still retain control of the intellectual content?

You seem to embrace technology and I wonder if you could simply make the same data available using a secure website that users pay a one time or annual fee for access that incorporates a mobile app also accessible with smartphones?

Then you control all access, content, have the hit ratios of users, etc.. You can trademark/water stamp images, pay homeage to origin of photos or contributors, easily add/delete or update the content and values, if included. You could also include the air meter and other data to drive additional revenues. Links to and from websites like this mightdrive additional revenues.

Making your content digital secures it from physical harm such as theft,fire, floods, hurricanes, tornadoes etc and preserves it for the future collectors hobbyists...

I am sure there are far more investors, code writers, computer software and web designers that would be willing to jump on board to this format or perhaps offer to do the work under a limited partnership over a single print book that becomes outdated rapidly. It would be a real investment that has real value as it evolves and would continue your legacy of amazing research. Possibly creating a far more valuable tangible asset that you could leave to your family or sell when you are ready to hang up your hat.

These are only my thoughts & questions. Please know I hold you and your work in the highest regards and thank you for all your time, effort, knowledge, research, books & posts here.

Best wishes and God Bless;

Thank you for the compliment about being up on computer technology, but I am not.

As far as I know anything you put on a website can be copied, just like a CD can be copied.

Hopefully someone (gulfiend?) will explain this all to us, hopefully using words we can understand. Any suggestions are welcome.

This book, if it comes about, will probably be my last hurrah. Who would keep the info on a website up to date?

Jack Sim

...Jack, you overestimate my interactive computer experience! I'm a print designer and woefully inept when it comes to programming...

...that said, I wouldn't go the website route, or the iPhone app route...much easier to grab (steal) digital content, than printed content...I would keep to the format you've established - but add more pumps, and perhaps a 1-10 rarity scale (like Scott used for his globe books) as that will remain constant no matter what happens to the market...you've been at this long enough to know what MOST people will want/need in a guide...and remember, you can't please everyone...

...now - if the book was MINE, and I was going to publish it, I'd go 'print-on-demand'...check out lulu.com...they have an HQ right here in Raleigh - and I know someone who works there...I could take one of your previous editions over there, and get some info, if you'd like...lulu.com is not a printer; they are middlemen who book time on presses around the world...they get books printed for people who can't/don't want to sell to a publisher, and the printers keep the million-dollar presses working...lulu.com gets their cut...

...first, the pros:

* NO inventory to store, unless you want it...you print the books as you get orders for them...the website says 'volume discounts start at 15 copies'...

* You're the only source for the books - you can control who sells them, thereby eliminating the chance of being undersold by Barnes & Noble, etc...OR, you can sell your books through Amazon, Barnes & Noble, etc...

* You can store the printer files with lulu.com, and make revisions as you see fit...you could conceivably print a new edition whenever you got enough new material, or better images of certain pumps, etc., and not have to worry about selling all of the previous books before you print a new edition...

* It would appear that lulu.com COULD set you up with an eBook, if you wanted...

...the cons:

* well, I can think of only one: since you're not dealing with a publisher, you'd have to get someone who knows computer design to layout your book...it looks as though lulu.com can handle that, or you could get someone you know to do it, and send the files to lulu.com for publication...