Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums General Petroliana Discussion Can question......

I found this can in an antique shop over the weekend for a 10 spot. It is like new, and was never topped. The bottom has the Canco logo. I was wondering if the can is worth much and if I should have topped, or should I just leave it as is? Mobil is my thing, but I won't pass up such a nice can at a good price! Sorry for the fuzzy pic, it's all my camera can do!
Thanks for the help all.
Darin

Darin, I'm sure there are many schools of thought on this one. This is kind of dicey ground here. The can was never actually filled and lidded and this is where the problem can start. Original OIL FILLED cans are what collectors want. A perfect example would be the cans you see sell on Ebay that were never intended to be filled. These were display pieces for store fronts or displays. They are original to the time, just never went the route of being filled and sealed. These cans will always realize much less money than the "real deal" type of can. Your can was neither filled or lidded and we can never know which way it was intended to be used. Lidding it sure wouldn't hurt it, although the cat is out of the bag so to speak on it's origins thanks to this thread. It makes a very nice example to have and $10 I'm sure most people would say was fair. The same can with oil originally would sell for around $40-$75. I guess moral ground comes in to play here. It is conceiveably possible to lid it and pass it off as original but that's a subject I've learned to stay away from. Personally I think you did fine on price and a lid would help it diplay well. I hope this helps a little and didn't confuse more than anything else!.............Dave

If you prefer full, I can fill before sealing.
I prefer empty & sealed myself.

------------------
** NEED A LID ? **
FREE MINOR DENT REMOVAL, I re-lid
4oz.[2 1/8"dia.], 1 qt., Imp. qt, 6 5/8" dia.Gallon & 5qt Re-lidding. I have 1qt S.A.E. 20, S.A.E. 40W, Plain or bank lids. No S.A.E.'s on 1gal. & 5qt.

My opinion...have it sealed empty.

...does it really need a lid? Does it make that much difference if the can is lidded or not?

...just asking, as it's never occurred to me to relid a can, unless it was almost crushed or had been flattened out...and DB: the before-and-after photos are proof you do great work, to be sure...

...it's just never bothered me - I'm looking at the graphics on the sides of the can...

...as to value: it depends on the can...if someone found a case or two of Gulfpride Diesel quarts (with the buses around the top of the can) that had never been filled or lidded (or even ones that had the lids cut out) does anyone think they wouldn't get snapped up in no time, just because they weren't ever filled or lidded? It seems to me that if there are a zillion unfilled cans of a particular brand, a lidded one wouldn't be that much more valuable just because it had a lid...

Thanks.
The green FALCON cans are a good example of a gazillion cans that were found & never filled or sealed. You hardly ever see one now w/o a lid. I passed many chances to buy them @ $15-20 per case.

Some say a can w/o a lid has a story, sure wish they could talk !

Dave had brought up some points that I guess as a relatively new old gas collector I was unaware of. I have been a "collector" of many things since I was 10 years old. (now 32 years old) One of the most important things stressed in 99% of collectables is CONDITION. My assumption when I saw the can is it is NICE, old, and great example for anyone's collection. I would also guess that the surviving number of cans whether they were a "display" can, or an actual service station used can in this condition are probably few and far between. Heck, if I could find every Mobil can that I have in this condition, I would be one happy collector! I guess my main reason for posting the question was I had no idea if the can was worth $5, or if it might be a rarer can worth $100's? I also guess that the lid issue really isn't a big deal to me, but if it WERE a valuable can, I would have considered having it re-lidded. I just recently bought from 5quart Don a early Gargoyle Mobiloil Arctic guart that has neither a top or bottom. BUT, the lithography was in beautiful condition, so to me was still worth what I paid for it. I will have DB relid this one, maybe after I get a couple others to be done. Thanks for all the replies. It seems to me that like all things, this seems to be a matter of personal preference. To me, condition wins out over many other variables. Have a good day all,
Darin

A question about the cans that are refilled with oil and then new tops put on them.
Are they marked in any way that they have been refilled and relidded?
It's great for the person who has it done for himself, but how about if the cans change hands a few times and further down the road they are sold as originals?

Let me correct one thing from my earlier post. Most collectors are insterested in cans that either contained or still do contain oil. Myself--full is king.
I have no issue with relids as long as it is done well and right to the cans age. I have 2 relids that I have purchased.
If you're a purest, this will be a tough one to always sort out. Learning and looking for clues to a relid are your best defense i.e. straightened cans(flattened out wrinkles), a lid that was pressed over the rim of a cut out lid, unmatching top and bottom lids, plain lids with no weights marked at all, irregular crimping around bottom edge of lid and even lack of company logos or embossing as some companies were very partial to marking top lids with their names like Gulf, Sinclair and Shell. I bought one recently off Ebay that had a right lid with a weight of 40 on it only to realize that inside the graphics on the front of the can, the manufacturer had printed in the paint 10w-30! I felt pretty stupid after noticing that flaw but I took solice in the fact the relidder never took it into account and the original owner never caught it either. These are not "law's" but rather markers to look for. In the end, are you comfortable with it or not.
I've learned a lot from learning to "read" lids.........Dave

I just bought a re-filled & lidded can because of Condition & Graphics, Wrong lid [if I find a donor lid, I will replace it].

A can with the wrong lid will display better than NO lid & keep dust & moisture out, & to help preserve for future generation to enjoy.

I don't restore cans. I remove dents to the best of my ability & re-lid w/ Best match of lids I have.

My question still..... are the cans that are refilled and relidded marked so that someone a few years from now doesn't buy them as originals?

I don't understand how a can being re-lidded and re-filled makes it not an original? The can is still old, right? Personally, I don't care what the age of the oil inside is (since I drain them anyway) and you can usually tell by looking if it's a re-lid. Can someone help me out here? Why is a re-lidded, re-filled can not original? Thanks.
Tara

Hello Tara from IL,

IMO, any old can is an original.

Its really all about personal preferance of the buyer/seller that dictates value.

I think most everyone would agree that an original can with the original lids and original oil inside are the most valuable, most sought after. Then, drained cans that have both original lids intact... then cans with one lid... cans without lids.

IMO, when one relids or even refills them... it becomes sketchy as to what their intentions are. Either it was done to fool someone in reselling it or it was simply done as a personal preferance of the collector. Personally I do not see the point of refilling them with oil other than to fool someone down the line.

The cans still have value though. As much as one with original lids, oil... no.

Awhile ago, I bought a Lion Head can that had both lids removed, was cut along the seam but not flattened out. At some point the seam was soldered back together and the can was relidded. Fortunately for me, I only paid $30 for it. Seller never mentioned any of that and simply sold it as an original can. I thought I was getting it for a steal until it arrived and I saw what the condition was. So I ended up paying around what it is actually worth. A decent Lion Head can usually brings $100 or more, $200-300 for an original that is filled.

To save an old can without lids from being damaged/crushed it is a good idea to have them relidded. To some, the value goes down though when this is done. Others are not bothered by it.



[This message has been edited by GILMORE (edited 11-18-2008).]

Of all the cans I have re-lidded, only 2 have been re-filled with oil. Those 2 cans arrived full, I removed lid, repaired can, re-filled with original oil from can & re-lidded. 1 was done with the original lid from it's can.
No one is reproducing embossed lids. All new oil cans & lids from can companies are plain [no rings, S.A.E.'s or markings].

"... are the cans that are refilled and relidded marked so that someone a few years from now doesn't buy them as originals?"

Are restored SIGNS, GLOBES & PUMPS DATED ?


[This message has been edited by Dick Bennett (edited 11-18-2008).]

Here's an interesting article from a 1933 Gilmore Graphic...

IF a can lid was removed by a can opener [like on your kitchen counter], it leaves marks on the side of can & most were removed this way for another use.

Tin can sealing machines have been around since the rolled seam can lids. New machines are sold with a re-flange die so that cans could be re-used. All through most were sold for home canning, lots were packed into remote fishing & hunting camps [can you imagine packing in/out with glass jars in wooden crates !].

Unless you broke the sealed case of oil cans, you can't be positive that ANY can was filled & sealed @ the refinery.

Forgot to mention one other suspicious thing about the Lion Head can I mentioned before... the bottom lid had two holes punched in to make it look like it was emptied of oil. Someone before mentioned each can has a story, if they could only talk... interested to know if someone tried to rip someone off by doing this or if it was done as a personal preference looks-wise...



For the record, I personally have no problem with a relidded can(s). As long as I can see the side can graphics as it sits on the shelf... I'm good. My can collection is small as I only collect Gilmore stuff. I prefer buying ones with GILMORE embossed on the lid with nice graphics but they can get pricey. Plus, when you live in Chicagoland and don't go to many shows- you take what you can get.

[This message has been edited by GILMORE (edited 11-18-2008).]

DB, plan on sending this one to you sometime to get new lids. Should be one of the easiest ones you've ever done...

It won't qualify for the easiest but will be done with the same care as a rare high dollar cans.

------------------
** NEED A LID ? **
FREE MINOR DENT REMOVAL, I re-lid
4oz.[2 1/8"dia.], 1 qt., Imp. qt, 6 5/8" dia.Gallon & 5qt Re-lidding. I have 1qt S.A.E. 20, S.A.E. 40W, Plain or bank lids. No S.A.E.'s on 1gal. & 5qt.

I don't collect cans but do want to share a thought. I think relidding a can is like buying a globe with a repop capco body. The value is in the lenses... not the body. The capco body is $15 and an original is $35-$50 and really a nice set of lenses will bring pretty much the same money in either one.

I don't see relidding a can will keep some one from buying it.

The 15 or so cans I have are empty because dropping a full can and an empty is a big difference on damage! Remember keeping full cans in your house is a NO,NO! Insurance company might not pay your claim if you have a fire! You can only keep a gallon or two in your house. Wouldn't take many quarts to make that.

Hey Guys and Gals I have been reading this thread and was going to chime in with what Jarvis pointed out regarding having full quarts in your house or garage. A house fire is bad enough without fueling it with oil and grease. I empty and clean all my cans before I bring them into the house. Also cans that are full will start to leak over time, and that can be a different problem.I think it is fair to say that most collectors would rather have a dead mint empty can than a #8 full can. A can that has never been filled for what ever reason will display just as well as one that had oil in it. Maybe I have missed the boat and this is just my opinon, but I think a full can is no more valuable then an empty in the same condition. I hope I didn't offen anyone with my two cents.

Craig

You guys both make good points but.... in the case of collecting Gilmore Oil cans and globes, I have to disagree with both points.

Now you have to admit, Gilmore is an exception to the case. Collecting Gilmore is a little different than other companies as it hasn't been around for long time. It is highly collected. All items are pretty much considered rare items.

Gilmore used custom embossed lids on their cans...



You could say they have character to them, not generic looking.

If three Lion Head cans were for sale, all in same condition; one full, one empty w/orig. lids, one empty w/new lids. IMO, the full can would draw the most interest and $$$, followed by the empty w/orig. lids.

If both empty cans were the same price, wouldn't you choose the one with embossed lids?

Globe lenses are a little hard to compare as I don't think an original Gilmore lens ever met a CAPCO body. From what I have read and heard, Gilmore only used 15" lenses. Did CAPCO ever make bodies for the 15"ers? I don't know for sure, I believe not.

I think the reason old CAPCO bodies aren't valued that much is because they are still easily found.

As rare as original Gilmore lenses are and for the amount they go for... couldn't imagine what marked Gilmore metal bodies would go for.

There will never be a definate answer here as its hard to compare items company to company, era to era, style to style. They are all collectibles and are worthy of being collected. I just thought I would share my thoughts on the matter.

I have only heard good things about DB and his work. Wasn't trying to devalue his work or relidded cans.



[This message has been edited by GILMORE (edited 11-18-2008).]

Craig,
I agree. To me, an empty can and a full can (same can, same condition) are worth the same amount of money. Actually, I'd buy the empty one so I don't have to deal with draining it!
Tara

Wow... didn't know the Gilmore cans had there own lids. That makes it unique! How many other cans do that?

When cans are shelved and displayed, unless you or someone else picks them up, how would you know if they are filled or empty, had orig. lids or new lids? I guess an upside down can would say it was full.

I buy cans to display them in my collection. Like I said before, I prefer original lids but am not bothered by relidded ones.

These cans aren't original but I'd still enjoy them and be proud to display them...

Jarvis, not sure how I should read that comment.

If you are being facetious, I am sorry I offended you. Wasn't my intention.

Quite a few companies have their name embossed on the top & some also did the bottom. Not all GILMORE tops or bottoms are embossed w/ their name.
db

Gilmore... i am not a can guy and never knew that some had there own lids.

I collect globes and gas pump salt peppers... that's enough! I don't need to add cans to my list. LOL

Good to here Jarvis. I don't post much and I would hate to offend anyone when I do.

DB, which ones aren't embossed? All the ones I have seen/owned have been. The earliest can I've ever owned is one with Purest Pennsylvania on the can. Am I correct that it was out before the Purest Premium cans? Never seen in person the original style as shown in the article I posted before.

Also, what is the story behind the small head logo? I heard it was an error and most weren't used.

[This message has been edited by GILMORE (edited 11-18-2008).]

Embossed but no name.


TIDEWATER had name embossed bottom & HyVis had name on top.

[This message has been edited by Dick Bennett (edited 11-18-2008).]

Ahhh, interesting. That must be an early can in that style. I have two here with Purest Pennsylv... and they are like the latter ones I have. Golden Lion is embossed on the Golden Lion can top lid but has Gilmore on the bottom.

[This message has been edited by GILMORE (edited 11-18-2008).]

Man, you guys are really serious! I used to collect beer cans then handy oilers and I would look for small differences, but this is beyond belief.
This is not meant to be critical, as I am just sitting back and reading this in disbelief. Jokeingly, I am glad I never got into collecting cans.
My question is, when the cans you have are put up for auction (as, lets face it, everything we have now, will be) will the bidders really care if the can is full or whether the lid is correct?
As I have said in the past there are no pump police out there to tell someone their restoration is correct or not, there also are no can police to tell us the same. The biggest thing is not whether the can is correct, but is it original or a reproduction. That is the most important thing.

Love this hobby, but.....

Jack Sim

I would say some see the can as half full & some see it as half empty.......i have never collected cans, however i find this topic interesting as this info can be used to preserve accurate history or reference books, & years down the road when these cans do come up for auction they can refer to the books or this thread & if the buyer is smart & putting a GREAT collection together, these differences will & should make a difference......jmo

Jarvis,
Some Sinclair cans have embossed lids. I couldn't tell you which ones though. Never paid that much attention.
Tara

Here's what the embossed lid looks like on the Golden Lion can...



Man... I guess I am the odd one out here. Everyone I know would surely take an intact original embossed lid over a new one for the sake of collecting... we're purists I guess.

Sorry Jack, for bringing so much disbelief to your eyes. Wasn't trying to be the "can police" or whatever but...

Roadrelics, my advice to anyone with a half-full can is to find some of the same oil, fill it all the way up and have it re-lidded. However, if it is half-empty, he should drain it completely and give the oil to someone with a half-full can. :-)

[This message has been edited by tagree0 (edited 11-19-2008).]

WOW, I didn't know I'd be opening this big of a can of worms, er oil...! lol....Have a good day all.
Darin

No can of worms being opened, just good info!
I am sure this is what Jim had in mind for this website, no ones getting mad just opinions and people learning info. I learned something new on this topic.

I will go back to my globe comparison... repop body and original doesn't matter to me. To some it does... does it keep them from not buying the globe? I would guess not but could. Would I like to have an original body? Yes, but will a repop keep me from buy it? No. I have seen original body globes bring the same price with a repop body with the same lenses. Just a matter of what you like and what it's selling for I guess.

Good topic though!

GOLDEN LION w/ a #5 top. Does anyone have #1,#2 & #4 ? GILMORE made 6 or 7 cans, how many different lids did they use ?

SINCLAIR embossed ends.


Fred Stokes collected 10,000 + qt cans. I doubt if he could tell us how many different top & bottom lids were used.

GILMORE email me.

------------------
** NEED A LID ? **
FREE MINOR DENT REMOVAL, I re-lid
4oz.[2 1/8"dia.], 1 qt., Imp. qt, 6 5/8" dia.Gallon & 5qt Re-lidding. I have 1qt S.A.E. 20, S.A.E. 40W, Plain or bank lids. No S.A.E.'s on 1gal. & 5qt.

[This message has been edited by Dick Bennett (edited 11-19-2008).]

Yes- only a GREAT discussion going on here. Just opinions on the topic and info being shared, hopefully.

If you want to hear/watch a good argument- ask a group of matchbook, some prefer matchCOVER, collectors what they think is more valuable... a nice matchbook w/the book of matches removed or a nice matchbook w/book of matches intact. LOL

Jarvis- I'd say I have never seen nor heard of anyone not buying 13 1/2 lenses/globes because the globe body wasn't original CAPCO, etc... I know of people that take and put the original lenses they are selling into newer bodies and keep the original bodies. Which pretty much proves your point. The next buyer isn't really affected by the body not being old.

One could argue that globe lenses really never have an original body as they are inserted and not manufactured that way. Different story for a one-piece/solid glass globe though.

If anyone is interested... here's my matchbook collection. I know nothing about matchbook collecting to answer anything. Just collect ones with Gilmore. First three are really hard to find, last two are more common. The flat one has had the book removed, the others have full books of matches.

Great thread...just thought I would expand on it with what I do with can lids. On the left is an original NOS lid...very typical of what would be found on a crimped seam can. On the right is an identical NOS lid after I stamped it with a SAE grade designation using original dies. I have a half dozen different grades that I can stamp and have stamped literally hundreds of these for myself and others. In my opinion a lid stamped with the weight designation looks better than a plain lid.

Kevin

This is great!! I think this is something that really needed talking about. What a range of opinions.
Gulf, Sinclair, Shell, Conoco and Richfield were all big into embossing lids. Cities Service also, but they tended to use product names such as Koolmotor. I'm sure there are more but I've yet to realize them except for the Gilmore products that I've learned about.
I, like many people, have a budget and that will dictate what I can afford. Everyone has their preferences and guidlines, natually. I believe in doing homework when I can. I watch a lot of cans on FBay just to see what happens. Trends do lean toward better prices on full cans if everything is equal. Lids do seem to matter as well. Please don't get me wrong, there are also other factors that figure in.....rarity and availabilty is a biggie. But take a RARE empty can and an equally nice condition full can, the full one will USUALLY win the bigger money. So when it comes to the financial end of things Tara had the order right. DB was right about those million and a half Falcon cans but I have one because it's another can that needed to be aquired. Oddly enough, it was this can that started me on the path to learning about lids. At the end of the day, I buy what I like and what I can afford even if sometimes it's outside the parameters of my collecting habits........Happy collecting.......Dave