Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums Online Auctions, eBay Craigslist Petroliana Cities Service Flange ??

OK--This is a toughy! I just don't believe this sign is an original Cities Service advertising sign, but I can't prove it!
Cities Service Koolmotor Flange
These signs first surfaced for me about 5 or 6 years ago when I bought one on ebay! When I received it, I was immediately alarmed because it looked to have been clear coated? Closer inspection revealed a very bubbly looking surface over different parts of the sign, like there had been air bubbles in the clear coat? Being pretty spooked, I returned the sign and promptly got a call from the owner.
He explained where he was from and that his father had just died and these were left to him in the estate and couldn't be reproductions! He said he knew his father had them for at least 30 years or more. I explained my concerns and politely asked for a refund, which was granted.
Since I am always watching ebay for Cities items, I bought another one about a year later and when I received it, it was the same as the first sign. NOW I was really confused?? Had I made a mistake on the first one, or had this come from the same person?? I contacted the seller and found that it had indeed come from the same estate in Sioux Falls, SD and the seller apologized and refunded me.
About a year after that, I had a chance to buy one thru an Old Gas connection and again it was the same thing but the signs origin was unknown? Shortly after that, I was contacted by one of the regulars from this site, as to the authenticity of a Cities flange he had just purchased. Again it had the same condition issues and I can't remember the origin of that one?
Since then, I had the opportunity to buy one from a friend and when I got it, it had some of the same traits but not as bad, so I kept it and still have it.
After that, I was contacted by a picker that had just come into possession of a large quantity of these signs from an estate in Sioux Falls, SD, and when I was told the story, it matched exactly to the story I was told by the owner of the sign in my first ebay purchase! Only difference is that he had bought several items from them and part of his buy was 40+ of these Cities Service flange signs!
Now, even if the man had been a Cities Service distributor, I find it odd that there would have been 40+ of these signs saved in his possession??? Very strange to me, but not impossible I guess?
Well, every one of them supposedly has the same condition issues and I'm still mystified by the clearcoating??
A-M signs made most of Cities Service painted signs, including this particular flange. I have 2 other Cities flanges (Kerosene, and Naptha) and the green coloration is different--no bubbles--no clearcoat?
I bought an unbent flange that was taken from the A-M warehouse a few years ago, and it is the exact same as my other flanges!
I'm really wondering about this sign, because I can't prove where it came from, and neither can any one else--its not marked. The lettering and design seem correct, and it looks very nice, but its one of those suspect signs that we will never know the truth about!
I just find it hard to believe that A-M signs would have let those signs out with the condition issues I've mentioned? Also if you take paint that hasn't quite cured and spray another coat from a different type paint on it, I have seen these exact type of bubbles appear before in my own work?
If its a reproduction, they did a nice job, but botched it with the clear coat and probably ruined the value of any Cities Service Koolmotor flange for forever?
Like I said, I DON'T KNOW FOR SURE, but there are too many red flags for me and these signs are going to continue to surface with that many of them being found!
Be your own judge if you're buying one and make a close inspection. Others may have a completely different opinion than me!

Kevin, a few months ago I did the same research as you... just without buying multiple of them so I didnt have them in hand. I contacted several people here on OldGas that I found in the archives that do or did own of these.

EVERY single one of them had the condition issues that you speak of. and now there is one on ebay now, there was one a few weeks ago, and there is one on a auctionzip auction as well.

I came to the same conclusion you have, and decided to avoid all of these 'bubbly' koolmotor flange. Another common trait is tiny pieces of paper stuck to them. I also dont think the truth will ever be known because so many are convinced these are aunthentic, and because there has been heavy investment of around $600-$700 per sign this has resulted in make-up stories about the bubbling resulting from being NOS and the original packing paper being pressed against the sign for so long.

After doing my due diligence, I decided to pass on these flange signs because there were just too many flags being raised. Thanks for bringing this up, as I wanted to... but thought I would be ridiculed because I know how many collectors on here own one.

Is it a possibility these signs were produced for Cities Service by whomever and the whole lot was rejected by them for the same reasons as you describe (bubbles etc.) ? might explain why one person had large quantity of them ? just a thought

Kevin, I believe this same flange sign is in the upcoming Miller auction, wonder if that one is marked and/or has the same condition issues? Guess a guy could always give them a call and inquire about condition/markings. Was actually thinking about bidding on this one.

last one sold brought a whopping 911...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vinage-NOS-Tin-C...n-/191001355936

Steve--If you like it, buy it! The only reason that I brought this up was because of all the questions this sign has raised for me over the years and it really bothers me! I'm sure not saying its a phony because I can't prove it one way or another?
You'll have to decide that on your own.

Kevin, it does seem to have an off green color. Maybe a bit darker green than it should. Always hard to tell on something like that without seeing in person. I would think if its Cities and you're skeptical. Thats more than enough reason to avoid this one until something more certain can be established.

HHhhmmmm? Same seller as the current one on ebay! One a month for forty months?

Since its colder than a well diggers A** and can't do much around the farm I'll give the Miller guys a call in the morning and see what I can find out about their flange. I'll let you know.

The best of my knowledge is that the bolts holes should not be aligned straight up and down on the flange. I have one and mine does not have that look like your talking about. Holes are right. Colors right. I don't know.

Seems strange someone would have so many of that particular sign in such good condition. Then again, if it is some kind of reject for one reason or another. I could see were one person might have ended up with multiples. Seems strange though. I guess we will have to wait and see.

[/quote]HHhhmmmm? Same seller as the current one on ebay! One a month for forty months? [/quote]

a kool 36k..

When in Doubt, walk away.

The more you think about ebay detail. The more suspicious it seems. 36k. Thats alot of signs spread out over a long period of time. Seems to me if you did stumble upon a large number of one sign like that. You wouldnt methodically get rid of them at such a slow rate. Even a collector wouldnt want more than a couple to keep for themself and would get rid of rest as soon as possible. Not like that for 3 1/2 years. Im going with fraud

not necessarily, if you found a case of NOS 1500. oil cans & flooded the market- you'd be shooting yourself
in the foot- one every 6 mo. for a maximum return & a little extra income for 12 yrs..

His Max return will be to sell 5-10 in the next couple years then wholesale the rest or change his ebay name/get a couple of buddies to sell a few more.
Don't take long for collectors to learn a stash has been found, then the prices will DROP.

Dick and Randy i definately hear what your saying and dont disagree. I think you are both right in your thinking. But, i see a person who is methodicaly selling an item that also has some suspicious qualities other than the way they are being sold. I beleive Its kind of hard for us to determine the best way or the way that seems to be on the up and up in this particular situation. If we dont know exactly how many signs this person actually has. For, getting rid of thousands would be a different story than a couple hundred. Just trying to give some food for thought. I could be completely wrong.

I don't know if this helps guys but when I check a sign to see if it has been clear coated, you just take a point of a razor blade and make a small scratch....if it's white it's clear coated if its the color of the sign it is not.

Randy, Dick and Kevin. Do you guys find his method for selling them to be suspicious? Or just another factor that makes this situation that much more confusing? Im interested to know what, if anything, do you take from seeing the signs being sold in this manner. Does it make you suspicious? Not make any difference? Or does it make you more likely to think things are on the up and up?

The owners of the estate were pieceing them out very slowly over the last few years and eventually sold the balance to the picker I mentioned. He, in turn, sold the whole group to one individual, so that he didn't have to mess with them.
I don't find find the sales method suspicious at all, as the retailer would be selling them in the manner he determined to be best to maximize his sales.
Sign condition and the fact that this bulk wholesaler would have 40+ of the same sign with questionable condition in his possession, are the only factors that have me suspicious. Even if they know that he was in possession of them for the last 30 to 40 years, it doesn't quite make sense? But then, there are a lot of things that don't make sense?

Those two links (above) show the same sign.
What is the era of this particular sign? The older the sign, the lesser the quality of the materials used to make them.
Although the circumstances and condition are unusual, it could be possible.
(remember the deal with all the no-nox signs not too long ago)

10 -12 years ago when i was into Cities there were several of these floating around . They were alot heavier than the original and the mounting holes on the flange were straight up and down. They were silk screened and did not have a clear coat.

I've been contacted by both the person that found these signs, and the man selling them on ebay. We discussed the condition issues and apparently, there are some in the group that did not have these issues. One of these gentlemen asked me to contact a friend of his that makes his living working with paint and restorations.
I did that and we discussed many scenarios that could have possibly happened to have caused this bubbling in the paint, with no real clear answer as to how it could have happened.
BUT, we did come to the conclusion that strange things happen to painted surfaces, and since it happened to this specific group of signs, and not random signs is probably more of an indicator of their authenticity, then the other way around.
If these signs had been reproduced for sale to the sign collectors of the world, they would not have been stored together and kept from public view for 30+ years, they would have been sold off as quickly as time permitted in order to recoup the costs of production.
There are some issues with the finish on this group of signs that will probably never be identified as to "WHY", so we can only use the other facts and circumstances to decide if they are "RIGHT" or not?
As I have stated before, these signs are right in every way, except for the finish and I can't explain WHY, or HOW they came to be this way. The fact that it seems to be limited to this group of signs is probably a good indication that it was either storage issues that relate back to the condition of the signs when they were placed in storage, or it was a batch issue stemming from the manufacturer? Its certainly nothing we'll ever be able to determine.
Coupled with the fact that they were effectively hoarded by the collector/jobber that had them, all signals would point to the fact that they are indeed OK, and are just some nice signs with condition issues.
Maybe I should never have brought my concerns to the table on these signs, but with a 5 year history of not knowing WHY, and having it bother me so much that I returned every one I ever got, I decided to bring it out! Its probably a good thing I did, because I sure feel a whole lot more confident about them than I did for the past 5 years!

great information and research Kevin. thanks

Great Job on your Research Kevin and I'm glad you brought the information to this thread.

Kevin, a friend of my is a proffesional painter. He mainly paints cars. I had a painted sign that was NOS from the '50's. It had same type of bubbling issue and seemed to have something over it like a clear coat. My friend told me that paint will do that if it gets wet and stays moist for years on end. I think this was a good topic.

It will be interesting to see how the prices drop from the 900+ the first one sold for to this auction and the next & next etc...now that some people know there are 40+ of these out there.

I saw two similar signs like these sell at a recent auction. If I recall, one was oil or gasoline and the other was maybe kerosene? Anyways, both were very clean looking signs and at the time I wondered if they were right or not. How many different versions of this sign are there?

Hi Folks,
My name is Glenn Miller. I am they guy who recently sold 2 of these Cities Service Flange signs on ebay and another on the auction in Ohio and I have one on my auction in Feb in Tomah WI and another on Chupps auction in a couple weeks.
I have been buying and selling advertising signs for over 20 years. I handle around 1000 or so signs a year. I would consider myself very knowledgeable if not an expert. Especially in determining fakes and reproductions.
I guarantee with 100% certainty that these signs are original and not reproductions. I have several that are near perfect with no bubbles in the paint. The bubbles in the paint were caused by heat and or condensation from being stored over the years.
And just for the record, these signs were found in Iowa, not South Dakota. (Although it was close to the border) There were 20 of them not 40. I invite anyone to stop by my shop in Wisconsin and I will show you the signs. If you know anything about old signs, once you have one in your hands you will see what I am talking about.

I have one of these signs and I have always believed it to be good and mine does have the bubbles as discussed before and did have small pieces of the old paper stuck to it. I bought mine out of Sioux City, Iowa also. Good discussion on this sign. Here is a picture of mine.

Welcome to Oldgas Glenn,
Looks like some great pieces in your feb auction.