Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums General Petroliana Discussion Shell Motor Oil sign, Real or fake?

Hi gassers, is this ebay sign real or fake? Item No 350972486751. It looks different to a very similar sign listed and dimensions of sign not the same??

Looked at it in person today when picking up a can and the lettering is raised and feels like sandpaper, almost like rhinoliner. The sign is painted... Weird weird, and he has a lot of fake items from a collection he bought.
I dont like it. Dont feel right.

Dan

Thanks Dan, it doesn't look right to me either. I am not an expert on porcelain signs but I would not think signs of the 1920-30's era would have been painted?? I could be wrong.

Lots of painted signs from that era.
example:


Tin tackers were mostly painted. But i believe these should be porcelain. I dont collect shell but i am sure more people will chime in.
Dan

The sign is double sided, Die Cut and there is red paint under the reflective paint I have seen and held one just like it! To much work for a non Porcelain POP
IMO REAL!

Fake, just look at the transition from yellow to red it's paper thin.

Thanks guys. Are there any Shell 'experts' out there willing to make a comment?

hawkike (Frank) you need too comment!..

I am not an expert but to me I would not bid on it because the grommets look strange and not lined up, I am not sure what it would mount to with grommets in those places unless it was a curb sign, on the last photo the first red line is overlapping the other line and also my larger shell sign has a property of shell stamped on it which I do not see one on this sign. That is my opinion though.

Real sign. Sorry if some haven't seen the sand-reflective finish signs, but they are a well known version used by Shell.

Here is a porcelain version. The holes are in the same spots.

Matt I notice on that one though all the lines are lining up right. Like the red lines toward the outside full touch the edge of the clam but the on on ebay there is a gap between the very outside edge of the clam and the red lines. Also the red lines on the outside that are overlapping. Would there be a reason for this? If it is real does that boil down to quality control?

I think it just might be a different sign maker. The vee shapped red line at the bottom is much thicker also. Or it could be quality control like you said. Here is the ebay sign to compare.

This is interesting discussion, guys. i an no expert but it does look like a painted sign as you can see some yellow coming thru the red with some letters. My guess is that it's provably made around the 1950's by another manufacturer. I know Shell did change the tone of yellow over the years where the 1920-30's had a pale yellow with the later stuff a more mustard looking yellow. Both of these signs look different, especially with the lines at top of clam. One set of lines are shorter than the other which tells me they're made in different era. Still not sure if ebay sign is original. if in doubt, stick to the Property Of Shell signs.

LOL, "Property of" is seen on sooo few original US signs it isn't funny George.

But for those who can't be comfortable with the signs authenticity just don't bid. You're not seeing the guys who usually report fakes turning up and telling us to report it jumping in on this one.

There is a known repop seller and his brother form Ohio. Both guys have longer hair and may have family with them. Always a good mix of fake and real. Looked at the Shell sign and a Ford sign with the reflective letters at the Auburn swap last year. I think both are fake. Could be wrong but too many red flags. I walked away.

Look for a conversation here on OG last year about shell and you'll see this type Shell discussed.

As for the sign guys you mention, I do believe I know who you are talking about and looked at the same signs. The Shell they had was undoubtedly real and they had a several early versions of Ford signs as the fellow has an extensive original collection. He bought one of my Veribrite made one's to add to his collection as he hadn't seen it before.

Did they have repops? Sure. But they aren't snobs to the buying public who can only spend a couple hundred at shows and offer the cheap repops to pay for show costs. I know many dealer/collectors who will sell repops to help defray costs. Talk to the guy and he can help you identify the repops and when they were made.

difference of opinion. I think the Shell and Ford signs were fake. I wouldn't touch them with a 10 ft pole. I would need to see one in an old photo (Still hard to tell) before I would even loosely consider lowering my opinion on these.

I agree with Greg! I held the signs at Auburn!
They werent right (in my opinion)
The crudeness of the lettering is a dead give away, BUT hard to see from pics...

IMO Very Correct for a Depression Era sign! The sandy finish is called Smalts and was a common way of painting signs in the 20's and 30's.

Gotta disagree. All smalt signs I've seen (I currently have 2 on my wall and picking up a third in Columbia) are made with the reflective sand as a background with the letters or design being painted. The Shell and Ford are just the opposite. The quality of the smalt application to the letters of those signs was thin compared to all the other ones I've seen. Now I don't profess to know it all but these are major red flags. Anyone own a smalt sign other than Shell or Ford that didn't come from Ohio? Solid evidence is the only thing that will change my opinion. Here's an example.

I have seen these smalt signs done both ways as referred to above, background and letters both with rough finish. Sign looks legit to me. The only real way to tell is to have it in hand. Mcguffeyd1 has had it in hand and doesnt feel comfortable with it. With all this said, In an ebay auction, best thing to do is to walk away.

Paul, you say undoubtedly real, well maybe to you. Me, I have my doubts. Yes, there absolutely is an original clam w/red reflective paint. These particular ones, I am not so sure of. I've held one of these signs from the guys with 90% fake stuff in their pile. I wanted to buy it-for I think, 400.00 but couldnt bring myself to do it because it didnt seem quite right. I thought about it long and hard @ Mich. gas two years in a row. Believe me, I have no qualms about spending 400.00 for a sign I like- if I feel its genuine. I've been buying signs for quite a few years now, but would feel foolish to call myself an "Expert" or a guy thats"Seen it all". I also have to say that I've had my fair share of getting stung, as well as kicked myself a number of times for passing on a good deal. I want to say it did have a makers mark stamped on it. It looked like you could've wiped it off with a little spit on your finger tip.
I dont see a manufacturers mark on the one on ebay.
My first reaction was I wasnt going to let go of it. My wife who didnt get the same emotional jolt from it shook her head a little and made me pause and think. I'm glad I did. Even if it was an old sign, it looked kinda amateurish, to me anyways.
Now, I'm not trying to start a controversy here or call anyone out but I had to think another red flag to me is: How do a couple guys who have almost all fake stuff, happen to hook up with the controversial Shell "AIR" signs off the roof (Which I still am not convinced they are fake) and this controversial Shell lollipop sign.
Why didnt you buy it? That sign, if right is worth more than what they were trying to get for it, No?
On the other hand, many signs were made in Ohio- could these have been some type of reject? All this being said- I have no regrets not owning it and would have those"doubts" every time I looked at it.

P.S.- I feel this sign will carry that bit of doubt with it into the future, now that Vickers sign of Gregg's- thats an investment I feel would be better to add that 400.00 dollars to in order to aquire.

This sign again. There have been several posts about this sign in the past with some detailed pictures. Unfortunately I have had one knowledgeable friend get stuck thinking he got something good. Hard lessons. Learn and know who you are dealing with.

The fact the guy had the Ford signs with the same reflective sand letters is another red flag. Both would have to be rare and yet he has them with all the other fake items. Most likely the one on ebay was purchased from these sellers given the location. Does anyone have a picture or own what you think is a real shell sign with sand letters not reflective paint letters but sand or smalt as both the of the signs I question. I just spoke with a friend with a very large collection. He said all his smalt signs(there were several from Chevy to Wadhams) were background only. He also had a few signs where the letters were reflective but not smalt or sand. So I still feel the Shell on ebay is bogus but would love to see what an apparent real one looks like.

I like the look of the sign and I collect Shell. If the sign was larger I would be bidding. In my opinion the sign is real.

I can say this a personal experience. I have been at these brothers "shop" in lima and they have stacks of reflective glass ford and shell signs. Also 400 plus mason jars of freedom, hudson and shell bottles. They do mix in real stuff but my money on those signs are they are more than likely fake or they are the luckest brothers to ever find that many of the same sign in the same condition

Yes i have had it in hand. I have never seen a reflective sand sign, so my knowledge on them is limited. Plus i dont collect Shell, so i will not be bidding. This is not an item i am going to report as fake because i have no evidence. Some very knowledgeable shell collectors on here think it is legit. I am 50/50 now and just curious as to what it will go for.

THAT SUCKER IS HEAVY. Heaviest sign of that size i have handled.

An earlier post about these signs. Somewhere there is another discussion. Have not found it yet. In this discussion I was skeptical since then I became convinced. Not real in my mind.

http://www.oldgas.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=61830&Number=387461#Post387461

60Wayne- the last comment on the link you provided was by you, and it is another link to the thread you are talking about. If that makes sense.

Makes sense after reading it. Thanks

This observation alone says tons about the sellers, Just like others who mix real with repros to "trick" buyers. STAY AWAY from people like this.

I agree! Why would anyone buy or believe anything coming from any clown selling those mason oil jars?

It looks okay to me,Shell did have some tin painted signs in that era,Shell Kerosene flange comes to mind

I learned a long time ago to take everything with a grain of salt as the saying goes. However, I've also acquired authentic pieces other "doubters" have shunned because their knowledge was faulty or incomplete.

Further, not to belittle others opinions, but I oft discount negativity someone may feel towards another seller because either I know the seller or I prefer to establish my own opinion rather than have a preconception. This has allowed me to maintain a much better ability to conduct business with a wide range of people both buying and selling.

The wisest collectors I've met with some really awesome collections know they don't know everything and don't have the corner on the knowledge base. When it comes to signs and the hundreds of sign makers who existed in the days of yore I realize that signs have been created in myriad of ways and a person should not be absolute about anything unless they were the original person who produced the sign!

In the case of Shell with the reflective coating, they made them and they aren't Yellow reflective they are red reflective.

In the case of creating repops with this technique my question would be how many are you seeing with your knowledge base can honestly 100% call fake? And are you seeing them turn up everywhere?

This year there is a new Gulfpride sign out made on heavy metal. A nice sign, an obvious fantasy, and many of them turn up. I don't see tons of Shell & Ford reflectives turning up at shows. And why would they stop with Ford & Shell? Why aren't there a bunch of other reflective signs when you see the tons of other fantasy/repop stuff being made?

Like I said in my earlier post, talk to those guys and you'll get an education about the repops because they have them. Part of their business is selling repops. Ask them if those Ford signs are repops.

You Really think a couple of guys Making/Selling Repops are going to tell you they Made the Ford Signs?

Funny how these same guys have stacks of similar signs, and all very questionable. They sure do have some great and unbelievable finds.

He probably doesn't think it's Odd they always have Several of the Oil Jars at shows & ebay!

I oft find that when someone begins a statement with "not to this, that or the other" that actually, that is exactly what is meant and the caveat is a thinly disguised way to insult others. Comes off as more than a little pompous too.

Maybe your right , Neil. lol Sorry Paul.

That's part of their business, so odd... no. Do collectors hate it... sure.

But then I ask, how many real jars to you even see at at the average petrol show? I don't recall at Dixie Gas or Mason Dixon seeing stacks and stacks of them available for sale at any price. You can probably find less than 10 full original carriers at the typical car show as well. So they have found a niche market and made something to fill it, a smart business practice (though annoying to collectors).



As for speaking to them about what is repro and what isn't, if someone won't speak to them that's their prerogative but what harm is it to spend a few minutes and talk to the guy. Anyone who has met Miles Little knows he deals in repros but also has the real deal. I suppose you snub him too huh?

What I'm trying to say is that standing there looking at the shell and ford signs and not talking to the seller about their authenticity or history but belittling them here on OG makes me discount such opinions greatly.

Knowingly Selling Fake bottles as originals is a smart business practice, wow, someone is in denial.

Discount all you want. When your wrong your wrong and you sir are wrong!

The more I think about your statements Paul the more I question your integrity. You are closer to being in the same boat as the fraud sellers than Miles ever could. I think you have insulted him in even suggesting he operates as they do. Selling reproductions and stating them as such and duping the public are apples and oranges. You are essentially condoning criminal activity as good business practice. Wow! Stacks of fake Ford signs viewed by a member and you insist they are real because they told you so? Really???? Go ahead keep discounting.

Would be nice if the IGNORE Button worked 3X Better.

Well said Greg!!!!

The guys I know don't sell the jars as originals. It's the guys who buy a couple and sell them for 4-5x the price and pass them off as originals.

Again, it goes back to talking to the guys who are selling. If these indeed are the same fellows I see at Moultrie and Daytona they don't misrepresent them. For the repro/fantasy signs in general, they are filling a niche whether you as a collector want to admit to the fact or not.

Miles represents his signs correctly, sadly he hasn't taken the best step and had all of them marked as such and even numbered for those done in limited numbers.

As for integrity, well lets just say that those who know and do business with me are satisfied I represent what I sell righteously.

Please look back a few responses. Paul said "PART of their business" and NOT "SMART business"!
I reread this post several times and do not see where ANYONE condones practicing deceit!!
I wrote a PM to Paul a few days ago thanking him for his knowledgeable input and willingness to share his opinions. I also wrote of my reluctance to post that sentiment in the public forum out of concern of ridicule (for both of us!)
There are other knowledgeable, helpful people on here who give their opinions freely. I thank them too!
I met Paul at Dixie Gas this past fall. A very nice, warm, sincere, truly "gentleman" guy. He makes an excellent point in this very post about meeting someone and getting a sense of them and their character. How many of his detractors here have met and spoken to this gentleman?? Any of you?! He is far from pompous and of low integrity in my opinion.
This forum shows that people have differences of opinion. Is this piece authentic or not? I see thoughts on both sides on this piece as well as others. A concensus of opinion is not always accurate. Take in all the information that is available and make a decision for yourself.
This works for material pieces and people as well!
Hopefully we can be more polite and proper to each other. More like the US Senate and less like The House of Representatives.
Thank you for listening and consideration.

I have talked to and bought from Paul and was happy with the transaction, "said what he would do and did what he said".as far as these 2 brothers go, i bought a 30" sign from them approx. 8 years ago at Carlisle with stipulation, if not original, money back....after showing several people we came to conclusion it was a repo , and they refunded me....with that said, they always have beat up repos in their booth and plead ignorance when asked if it original...it seems strange that 75% of their stuff is beat up repos....I remember them selling those bogus paper Indian motorcycle posters as originals....and those air signs, well they sold a freind of mine 2 of them in Chicago about 5-6 years ago and he brought them to me and said the guy had a couple more..when he brought me to his booth i almost fainted and told my buddy the horror stories abouit these brothers and i did not buy any of them, however these were the best repos i have seen, if in fact they were repos... i did not want to take the chance, however my freind sold his immediately......i still to this day don't know if they are right or not...they sure look right...............and also the shell smaltz sign in question, looks good to me and IMHO , think its correct....but i have been wrong before and will be wrong again.....live and learn....

Paul I'm sure you're a good guy and questioning your integrity was not fair since I really don't know you. I was shocked by your support of guys that do well selling fakes. I have dealt with the sellers of fakes and have seen them at shows for years. They are usually in Columbia so I'll see them next week. They are personable and spin a good story but unless they are just very lucky I will always be skeptical of what they sell. We can agree to disagree if you will on the authenticity of the Shell sign. Not sure it even came from them but if it did it's obvious what I think.

I prefer to disagree rather than be disagreeable, just one of those traits instilled in me from my youth.

I will never condone passing off a fake for a real item. But neither will I burn a bridge if I can help it. If indeed these are the same fellows I am thinking of, it disappoints me if they do pass something off as real. However, being that I always enjoy learning something new I don't pass up an opportunity to add to my knowledge, so speaking to them isn't a waste of time.

I thank DrDave and Roadrelics for their kind words, and perhaps one day we will meet up somewhere bustermonty and can exchange some more pleasant words.

I have never met Paul and I am sure he is a great guy, But when you try to sugar coat and defend the problem sellers you should also be able to take the heat.

Greetings all:

My name is Kevin and I am new to the site. I am part owner of Mulberry Street Antiques in Lebanon, Ohio. That being said, it makes me part owner of ebay item #350972486751 which is the Shell sign being discussed in this forum. I have been watching the banter here over the past few days and I appreciate all of your opinions on the piece. To be on the safe side, I nearly ended the listing, but after seeing the information in this forum I decided I would let the listing play itself out.

I would like to invite any in the area who are interested, to come and take a look at the sign first hand prior to the end of the auction. Even though I have sold a fair amount of gas pumps and signs in the past, we deal in all antiques and I am no expert in oil and gas. If there is any information I can provide to the experts here who would like to confirm the signs authenticity, I would be happy to provide any information I can.

Lastly, just to be crystal clear. I have also heard of the long haired fellow from Ohio and his brother. That person is not me and I have no relationship with the individuals. I bought this sign in a large collection recently, and 95% of the items were authentic. I did not buy the collection from those dudes, and I have no relationship with them.

I believe the sign is authentic. I feel it would take too much work to reproduce the sign. That being said, I have been wrong before. If anyone has hard evidence the sign is a fake, I want to see it. I will end the ebay auction right away and will display the sign in my shop as not for sale and a reproduction. I did not get to where I am by screwing people over. Furthermore, if anyone has hard evidence of the signs authenticity, I would like to see that as well. I have one book that describes the sign, but it is an older book. If anyone can provide facts, please present the information to me.

Kind regards,
Kevin