Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums General Petroliana Discussion 'Restoration' vs 'Customization'

...I know much has been written here regarding the lack of 'Pump Police', and how it's a free country, and you can do whatever you want when you decide to 'restore' a pump, but can we have a little dialogue regarding the rather loosely-used term 'restoration'?...

...it seems to me that in the classic car hobby/business (some say the bastard father of our hobby) there is a real difference between 'restoration' and 'customization'...the former involves returning the car to an original state, as closely as humanly possible (what the Smithsonian Institution did when they got a Tucker Torpedo) - the latter involves taking substantial liberties with paint scheme, amount of chrome, even the form of the car (taking parts from different cars and creating a fantasy piece)..., y'know, like the stuff you see on 'Monster Garage', or 'Pimp My Ride'...

...I bring this up as I just saw the photo from Peotone of the pump with orange metal flake paint - as well as the photo in the last PCM with the cowhide-covered Frontier pump - and I see fantasy paint schemes on here all the time, referred to as 'restored' - when in fact they have been 'customized'...

...does anybody else out there have any input on this? Personal preferences aside, I think the hobby would benefit in the long run from a little clarification...

I think the problem with pumps is the fact that in most instances, you have no idea what it originally was and generally, it was a half dozen brands in it's life-time. So I guess, unless you were dead-nuts sure that it was say a Mobil Special pump, the only way to do a correct resto would be to identify the oil company you want to represent and do a color-scheme that would be correct for the era the pump would've been used. The other problem is, that so many liberties were taken by the station owners or jobbers i.e. re-painting, re-branding, etc. The bad thing is, most pumps in their correct form were fairly plain. I'd have a hard time telling a guy paying me $15,000 for a restored Canadian Double that I was going to paint it all red, cylinder rods, pump handle, screw-heads & all. No, he wants everything possible brass-plated, and about 3-4 colors in the scheme. It would be a heck of lot easier to go by original....maybe we should start a movement right here!!

Below are some definitions for the word restore.

re·store ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-stôr, -str)
tr.v. re·stored, re·stor·ing, re·stores
To bring back into existence or use; reestablish: restore law and order.
To bring back to an original condition: restore a building. See Synonyms at revive.
To put (someone) back in a former position: restore the emperor to the throne.
To make restitution of; give back: restore the stolen funds.

The restoration of a car, gas pump, etc. needs to be further defined. Restored to what? Original? Better than original? How about restored to the owners vision? One of my favorite words thrown around the car circles is restification. What ever it might be, you gotta have fun with it.

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-Dave-
Slowly progressing on a '54 Tokheim 39

Restoration & customization are 2 entirely different worlds & you just have to decide which world you want to live in. Both have their good points & bad points. I wouldn't want my '58 model truck that I drive every day, to not have AC & automatic but I still like to see one that's totally original sometime. If you restore an old gun, anything more than just oiling it, you probably just killed it's value no matter how rough it was before. I like mine pretty & shiney & I intend to have them pretty & shiney. Fortunately, with old gas pumps, it seems that the prettier & shinier they are, the more they're worth. Is this a great hobby or what?

ken

..."better than original"? That's customized.

...the only way a pump could be "restored to the owners vision" (using the definitions supplied) is if the owners' vision is of the pump as it originally appeared...otherwise, it's 'customized' to the owner's vision...

..."the only way to do a correct resto would be to identify the oil company you want to represent and do a color-scheme that would be correct for the era the pump would've been used"...EXACTLY - that's a restoration.

..."the prettier & shinier they are, the more they're worth"...I don't think that will be the case down the road...I believe unrestored or authentically restored pumps will hold and increase their value more than 'customized' pumps will...

I agree, gulfiend.

Actually, nothing bothers me more than seeing pumps restored to "fantasy" specs. That is, use of pump plates and decals that were never even used back in the day, like that round sinclair dino logo w/ the large dinosaur. I consider these types of "restorations" to be customization, and they're actually a turn-off to me.

I like seeing restored pumps that have either original or correct repro pump plates, decals, globes, etc.

Personally, I'd like to see more people uncover their original decals, like Jeff (Thunder) did and get repros made as exact as possible if it's something uncommon. If all of the original obscure-branded pumps get restored to Mobilgas Special or Fire-Chief with a fantasy globe, a lot of history will certainly be lost.

Wes

..."the prettier & shinier they are, the more they're worth"...I don't think that will be the case down the road...I believe unrestored or authentically restored pumps will hold and increase their value more than 'customized' pumps will"...

What do you base your opinion on?
To me the best pumps have original paint and decals, but I from what I've seen the "customized" pumps sell for more money. As time goes on I think the trend will be towards more "fantasy restorations". MOST pump guys are already more into the workmanship that goes into restoring a pump, and less concerned about authenticity. The only evidence you need to see that is the proliferation of reproduction and fantasy globes.

There is no right or wrong other than restoring a nice original that would be better off preserved, and not everyone is in agreement on that! Rebuild your pumps as you see fit.

Gulfriend and Thermactor are true blue. Old and original is the only way to go , why use an old pump to make it look new or fantasy(custom)??? You might as well use a new reproduction one from the ground up. Keep it real. There is plenty of beauty and interest in the original if you will just really look at it, and appreciate(relish) it for what it really is. Real history.......

Lastgas15: I only started this post in the hope of establishing distinct definitions for pump 'restoration' and 'customization', not to debate about what approach was "right or wrong"...but, since you asked - in the spirit of healthy debate, and freedom of speech - here goes...

...I do realize that an immense amount of labor goes into the 'customizations' you refer to - extra plating; fanciful, tricked-out color schemes; 'bling-bling', etc. The same can be said for the cars featured on the aforementioned TV show 'Pimp My Ride'- and I don't think anyone would confuse anything done that show with a 'restoration'...

...hmm, maybe this is more of a debate about 'restoration' vs. 'Pimp My Pump'....

...seriously, there IS a real difference between 'restoration' and 'customization'...and for some reason those in the 'customization' camp are fearful to have that distinction made...

...more importantly, what exactly are you "preserving" when you create a fanciful customization? If you're just trying to keep the pump from deteriorating further, then I suppose you are technically "preserving" it. However, a true 'restoration' preserves both the pump itself, as well the historical significance of the pump as an surviving artifact from a bygone era. A huge part of that is in it's appearance as designed by the artists/industrial designers of that time...if you're not interested in that, you might as well collect reproduction signs, reproduction globes, and reproduction pumps and paint them every color of the rainbow in pearlescent metal-flake - because you're not really 'restoring' or 'preserving' anything...

...and, since you brought up "the proliferation of reproduction and fantasy globes" - does anyone out there think fantasy globes are what the hobby of collecting gas station memorabilia is about? Does anyone out there get excited when a truckload of fantasy pieces/repros pulls up at a swap meet? eBay is loaded up with really bad fantasy restroom key holders and other fantasy signs - do they have anything to do with collecting gas station memorabilia? Why not start a column - "Fantasy Buys of the Week"?

...I think most will agree that reproduction parts (and some pump signs/decals/globes) have their place - but building a large collection of things that never appeared at a gas station, well, that's just another hobby...it might impress your brother-in-law, but no true gas station memorabilia collector I know walks into a room full of fakes and thinks anything but 'what a waste of time'...

...if you're still not convinced, ask yourself this: how could a fanciful distortion of history be more valuable than an accurate portrayal of history?

Y'all can do what you want...from here on out I'm going to call it as I see it: there are restorations and customizations...

a toss up..... some gotta have a "correct" pump... others gotta have a "harley" pump... do what you like.. theres a market out there for both..

IF SOMEONE WANTS TO PAY ME $15,000 FOR $10,000 PUMP, I'D GOLD PLATE IT FOR THEM !!
db

The restoration and customization definition gets blurry when the actual "restoration" work takes place. How is one supposed to work the outer skins of the pump? Do you work out the dents making the skins perfectly straight? Have you "over improved" the pump if you do? Do you think pumps left the manufacturer in a perfectly straight condition? Probably not. How do you paint the pump? If you use modern paint materials such as base coat/clear coat or single stage urethanes are you "customizing" the pump? If you polish the trim to a luster have you "over improved" the pump? Did all pumps have globes? If you add one are you "customizing" it?

I can understand original verses fantasy. Some people have strong feelings over this. Thats fine, to each his own. In the Automotive world, flawless paint, trim polished to a luster, all details perfect is what wins car shows. The thought is "if the factory had enough time to do it right, this is what it would look like".

With a pump, no one knows what the station owner did to the pump after receiving it. He did what ever it took to set his station apart from the others in order to make an extra buck. Maybe it was an added decal, or an added stripe.

The definitions are blurry at best. Everyone has their likes and dislikes. The owner should "restore" the pump to his/her own vision.

When you say your restoring to preserve the history of a pump, how far do you go. Do you restore to working order or do you rip the guts out of it and restore just what you can see or turn. A true restoration, would mean everything right down to the lead base paint and all the heavy stuff that most people take out.

I agree with the restore people, I try my hardest to keep the right era globe and pump plate with the same era pump, but I use base coat clear coat on all my pumps. Nothing bugs me more than seeing a 60's era globe on a 20's or 30's era pump, original or not it looks stupid.

So my question is this am I a restorer or a customizer. I use base\clear and I lighten up the pumps by taking out the pump and other stuff, but I use all the original stuff I can get, and use correct globes and pump plates. You guys got me confused, I hope the pump police don't stop by.

Brian

A P.O.S. is still a P.O.S. even if it is chromed!!

I have seen a visible with gold plated tie-rods. I pointed out to the owner that they were badly corroded and perhaps should have been replaced, he said, but they are Original!! Yeah.. after you buff off the gold they would be!!..LMAO..

I think there is too much thought involved in this subject...I restore(let me say that loosely) and will paint them any color the customer wants if they are paying for it. I think that people who criticize somebodys hard work on a restoration/customization are the same people who also nit pick cars at car shows that I attend. I praise anyone who takes time(alot at that) and restores one of these classics. Though they may not be what I would do it still takes alot of time. Also, if your in the business to make money originality sometimes takes a back seat to show and shine as Seth stated. Most who complain have no clue! I personally wouldn't touch a real nice original myself, but If the buyer says paint it I do it. What makes me mad are the guys who spray bomb over pits ect.. and charge full price now thats bad! Freedom of expression only in America!

At the National Air & Space Museum (Smitsonian) aircraft are RESTORED to flight condition. If a part is missing, and must be fabricated, it is done with materials made to ORIGINAL SPECIFICATIONS, with equipment of the ORIGINAL PROCESS, and finished with ORIGINAL FINISH. What this means is, no high tech alloys, milled in a CNC machine, treated & finished with modern high tech coatings, such as powder coating. The part is to be made with the older type of material, typicly machined on a manual machine, then finished with what was used at the time of its original manufacture. THEN stamped with the word REPRODUCTION.

With this definition of RESTORATION, almost all of us, fall into the CUSTOMIZER catagory. (sp?)

How many people out there, make their decals with the original process used in the early 20s, 30s, or 40s? Aren't most of the modern made decals, computor generated with sophisticated graphics programs? This is not meant to be taken as any kind of insult, only to direct a train of thought. How much would we all miss out on if ONLY ORIGINAL parts, decals, and signs were used in a "restoration"?

More power to the people that can go with a totally original restoration. They certainly inspire me to reach for a higher level of expertise and authenticity. But there will always be, somebody that will question a restoration. Numerous times, I've had people tell me that my work was inaccurate. Then when I showed them the reference materials that I had worked from, often photos from the flight tests, there was some sort of excuse.

As far as a true restoration of a pump? Original red paint sprayed at the factory, decals applied, brand change or color change was usually done with a roller, OVER the original decals, possibly 2 or 3 times, drips, runs, and all....

This is TOO deep to take personally. Restore to YOUR level of satisfaction... 'nuff said...

[This message has been edited by Thunder (edited 11-08-2005).]

Maybe only a few restore..

But Many, repaint, refurbish, do-up-a-pump, redo, custumize, doll-up, etc, etc,

I like my pumps Gutted. When I was doing that Bowser 310..I gutted it and through the stuff in the junk pile. My buddy Vern likes his stuff complete and asked me about the pulley from the guts. i told him it was in the junk pile and if he wanted it i would bring it to him. I did, he was happy because the one I gave him was straighter than the one on the inside of his pump. I was happy to help but couldnt help thinking that its TRUE, ones mans junk is anothers treasure. I love Vern and am honored to call him my friend but I really wouldnt want to help him move...LOL I would but might get Dawn to work the fork lift ...LOL

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Hubba: GAS GEEK , OIL FREAK and humble moderator

I guess I am a customizer, I would get bored painting almost everthing red all the time. I colorsand and buff all of mine and take them apart to the last nut and bolt. But I come from the car world and when you restore a care you actually over restore 9 times out of ten. To do a 100% resto is phisicaly impossible. You cant even get the same materials. As far as people that picapart other peoples work they are generaly jelous or worse yet dont have or cant do the same Quality work. Anybody that puts forth an effort to redo a pump should be proud, of what they acomplish. And anyone that knocks it should get a life and a differnt hobbie. If everone had the same taste what a boring world this would be.
Brandon

Here's my 2 cents worth. We restore to a customers specs. Like it or not.....they pay the bills around here. Personally, I have a handle on what sells best......restored/custom pumps are the ones that move. I have done a few pumps in my 11 years in this business and have never had a customer specify that the pump be a perfect factory restoration......much ado about nothing, in my opinion....

I think Brandon and Paul said it best.
"Anybody that puts forth an effort to redo a pump should be proud, of what they acomplish."
"I have a handle on what sells best......restored/custom pumps are the ones that move."
"......much ado about nothing"

Someone had asked if anyone thought collecting repro globes was what the hobby is about. The answer to that is YES. Different people view the hobby differently. I like my stuff original. I don't even like repainted metal globe bodies. Other guys will clear coat everything they have right down to quart cans. I know guys that have shelves for of repop/fantasy globes and they consider that collecting petroliana. One guy even said my original globes are ugly! To each his own. Its a big hobby, do with your items as you see fit. If owning a fantasy globe or a "customized" pump puts a smile on your face then what's wrong with that?

I'm a newbie to OldGas; this is my 1'st post. I have 2 pumps, a Tokheim 39, restored/customized to Texaco Sky Chief, and a Wayne 866 I'm currently restoring/customizing to Texaco Fire Chief. I don't really care what you call it, restore or customize; I do them the way I like them. Maybe my pumps have more chrome than original, or some pinstriping not done by the factory, but the Sky Chief wears the correct color silver because I contacted Tokheim and obtained the original paint formula, and my 866 will be an "original" 866, not a "60" with a clockface conversion. At Hershey this year, I saw a Sky Chief 39 for sale for $2500+, and the color wasn't even close. Also saw several 60s converted to clockfaces, but with the wrong sides/set back handles, etc for over $4200. Yes, I made some comments about this; I don't think that's nitpicking. Whatever you do, restore or customize, it should be done right.

Just my humble opinion.

I DONT USUALLY GET INOT DEBATES ABOUT "RESTORATION VS CUSTOMIZATION BUT I MAYBE BETTER RECLASSIFY MY POST FROM A COUPLE WEEKS AGO CALLED RECONTRUCTION PROJECT. I GUESS IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN CUSTOMIZATION PROJECT. WHAT REALLY IS REPRODUCTION AND WHAT IS RESTORATION. WHEN WE STARTED OUR PROJECT WE WENT AS FAR AND HAVING ALL BEAMS ROUGH SAWN AS ORIGINAL BUILDING WAS THE TWO MAIN AWNING BEAMS ARE HAND HEWN 12 X 12 THE WINDOWS CAME OUT OF AN 80 YEAR OLD HOME TO BE "ERA" CORRECT BUT ALAS THE DOOR IS ONLY 50 YRS OLD AND THE FLOOR WAS DONE WITH PLYWOOD FIRST. TOSE WERE NOT AVAILABLE 80 YEARS AGO. THE SHINGLES ARE NOT ASBESTOS AS WERE THE ORIGINALS AND THE CONCRETE PIERS THAT THE BUILDING SETS ON ARE NOT LIKE THE ORIGINAL WHICH WERE JUST STONES PILED UP. PROBABLY WHY ORIGINAL BUILDING LEANS SEVERELY. PUMPS HAVE BEEN DONE AS CORRECTLY AS POSSIBLE BUT WOULD NOT EVEN THINK OF PUTTING AN ORIGINAL GLOBE ON EITHER OF THESE PUMPS AS THEY ARE FOR THE PUBLIC TO ENJOY AND WOULD CERTAINL;Y NOT WANT AND ORIGINAL GLOBE TO PROBABLY GET BROKE. THE NUMBERS ARE NEW DECALS AS ARE PUMP SIGNS BUT FOR MOST PEOPLE THESE ARE REPRESENTATIONS OF WHAT THE ORIGINALS LOOKED LIKE. SO I GUESS PUMPS ARE CUSTOMIZED ALSO.BUT TO THINK THAT ANYBODY WOULD SAY IT'S NOT NICE OR "ORIGINAL" WE HAVE NOT HEARD A PEEP. MOST PEOPLE ARE PLEASED WITH OUR PROJECT AND WE HAVE HEARD NOTHING BUT COMPLIMENTS. EVEN THE "ANCIENT" ONES SAY THEY "REMEMBER WHEN" AND THATS WHAT THIS HOBBY IS ALL ABOUT SO PEOPLE CAN ENJOY WHAT WAS AND WHAT IS NOW. I THINK MOST HOBBYISTS DO IT FOR SELF SATISFACTION AND ENJOYMENT FOR OTHERS. DO WHAT PLEASE YOU AND THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE.

Lastgas15 - I think you're exactly right. One of these days "prettier & shinnier" won't be the objective. You're also right - "customized" pumps sell for more money. I've seen "restored" pumps for fantasticly high prices that don't even have a pump in them but they sure are a lot easier to move around inside your house.
In 1940 a "restored" car had a fresh coat of brushed on paint, new brakes, a set of Western Auto $6.00 seatcovers and maybe a new set of rings. By the '60's - if you wanted to win in an original class in a car show, you had to have paint that looked so deep you could swim in it and every bolt cad plated. By the '80's - it went the other way. Now you have to have the paint actually look original and even the assembly line chalk marks on the engine block exactaly like original. I think that's pushing a little too far.
I still like "pretty & shiney". However, sometime we do things for other reasons. I'm going to do a brush paint job on my Fry 17 Mae West that we used on the farm from about 1947 until 1965 because that's the way my dad did it on that same exact pump. I know that I'll be thinking of him a lot while I'm working on it.
p.s. - he made me dig the hole for the underground tank (mattok & shovel work) when we moved it 2 times when I was 13 and 17. I won't ever forget that.

Wow, a lot of good opinions all over the board. I personally like to restore my pumps to how I might have done it had I lived through that era. If that means it had more shine than anybody elses gas station, so be it. It's my made up gas station anyway. HA HA. I love pumps no matter what they look like. ~Jason

My attempts at "restoring" pumps involve doing some things to the parts that probably weren't done originally as well as making compromises for missing parts that cannot be found. For one thing, today's paints are quite an improvement over those of yesteryear. I'm not interested in using the original type of paint on my pumps as I want them to last a long, long time. Often, the original nuts 'n bolts are next to impossible to find and re-use like on the Gilbarco 96E I just finished. 5/8" bolts? Square nuts? Give me a break... Wiring is improved in this era, too. I had to compromise to make a door glass/ad glass combo work as no one offered one single piece that was tall enough. I looked for an external shroud piece for the hose retractor mechanism to no avail, so I'm going to finish that section off in a way that won't detract from the pump itself. Yes, I hope to sell it to someone who will get a lot of enjoyment in having it with as much original stuff on it that has been painted or powder coated as I can put back on it. Does anyone do an exactly original pump? I think not.

I guess I like to sit on both sides of the fence depending on what I have to start with. It doesn’t matter whether it’s a pump, soda machine, classic car, or signs. If the condition I receive it in is all original with a nice patina, I don’t touch other than a light cleaning and replace any missing parts with originals (as long as I can find them). Original, untouched in mint condition seems to bring a premium with any antique.

On the other hand, if I get an item that’s been through the mill and missing parts, I’ll redo it in whatever colors and style that fits my mood at the moment. When possible, I’ll restore, otherwise I’ll customize.

In fact, I’m working on two 50’s style soda machines right now. One of them is so original it looks like it was pulled off the factory assembly line. I won’t touch it! The other machine looks like it just rolled out off Monster garage with extensive custom paint and modifications. I enjoy both equally as much.
Chuck