Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums General Petroliana Discussion Complete Newb with some questions

Hello New Forum folks. I am almost completely in the dark when it comes to old gas and memorabilia, the only thing I am sure of, is that I dig old stuff. Having said that, let me get to why I came here...

I am starting a Homestead and farm with my family. While looking into alternative energy sources, we discovered how relatively simple it is to make Ethanol, and it got me thinking about giving it a go. Then I took that thought a couple steps further- If I'm making my own fuel, I need to be able to store it and pump it, right? What would be cooler than an antique gas pump? If you're going to do something, at least try and do it in style

Talking to Sandy at Gas Pump Hobbyist in Massachusetts answered some of the questions I had, but I'm hoping there are folks here that can help with the rest of them.

1)Can an antique pump work with Ethanol? According to Sandy, yes. The hoses would have to be upgraded though. No biggie there.

2)Talking with pump restorers,I discovered that while they say the pump is completely restored and working, they don't come with the guts to make it functional. Any ideas on who to talk to about this, and how much it will run... Balpark guesstimation would work. I don't have any specific pump in mind yet, but it will likely be something from the 40's.

3)And IF I were to sell my own fuel, I can also assume that any pump with a major petroleum company logo is just begging for a call from an attorney at some point. The logical step, would be to come up with my own name and graphics, and I am very capable there. But instead, I would rather go authentic nostalgia, and find a name that has gone under. Not knowing much, I looked at Polly and Dino Sinclair, since I had never heard of them before. A little research showed they are still very active. So could you give me some ideas of who is no longer around?

Any sort of feedback or ideas is appreciated, and thanks for letting me ramble on.

Hi Captain,
Welcome to Oldgas.com Shop Talk.

Making your own fuel is one thing, but making larger quantities and selling it brings in complications. You'll have to be certain to conform to fire, safety and environmental rules or you'll risk big problems with the law.

Check with a local member of PEI, Petroleum Equipment Institute at http://www.pei.org/
for help with fire, safety and environmental compliance.

Check with Ark Petroleum on the Web at
http://www.benfordfueling.com/
for which pump models will have available replacement functional parts.

Best of luck on using a vintage pump. Sounds like a cool idea.

First of all, welcome to Oldgas. Your want for an old pump is what brings most of us here. There are many old pumps, that still have their internal parts, so that shouldnt be a problem. The cost of the pump, will be determined by what pump you buy. A Tokheim 39, can be purchased for much less than a Wayne 60. As far as pumping/selling fuel, thats another story.

For a company name/logo, like you said, thats just begging for a call from an attorney. Its likely that many of the old companies, who have been bought up, have sold rights to their names also. Though, making up your own name, and a logo, with a nostalgiac (sp?) flair, should be easy enough.

Take some time, and do a bit of reasearch. You might just find that you want to collect the "Petro" artifacts, and leave the Ethanol business to somebody else.

Welcome to Old Gas

First off, thanks for the warm welcome. And thank you oldgas for those links, I'll be calling them tomorrow, as well as the EPA. I am hoping to avoid any issues, which is why I'm looking into the feasibility of commercial sales. I for one, get a real attitude whenever I have to fill up, specially when the gas execs are getting multi million and multi billion dollar retirement packages. But that is another story altogether.

Thunder, the pump I would end up with will be determined by price and style. I really like the older visible pumps like the 20's Hayes Wichita/Blue Crown, the Tokheim 850 from the 30's, and several of the Deco style from the 40's.Judging from priced I've seen, I'll likely go with the Deco style for lower price, and hopefully, parts availability.

As for the name, I'd like the added nostalgia with real history, lest history be forgotten. You folks could likely come up with a dozen names off the top of your head... in your sleep That is all I'm looking for there, a gentle nudge in the right direction. I could spend a week online, and still miss a hundred old gas companies that I never knew existed. Most of them are still in existence under different names, but without a place to start, I don't have a chance.

And I would love to collect old pumps, but I don't have the time, the money, or the room. Getting one pump would be more than enough to make me happy, and satisfy the craving for stylish old stuff. If I can make a few bucks making and pumping gas to a handful of folk at the same time from my old pump, that would be even better

Insurance, liability, state/county permits, federal/state/county taxes, etc etc.
GOOD LUCK

Yeah, tell me about it

Don't forget to have your pump certified by whatever agency handles the weights and measures in your state. If you don't, they will fine you for everything you might have made as a profit plus whatever else they feel like, times however many years it took them to discover your operation, plus anything else they can think of.

Good luck and welcome to an interesting hobby-

Kurt

Welcome to oldgas. Your idea of pumping ethanol through an antique pump is cool!

As a former service station owner I can tell you that trying to do it commercially is a tall endeavor, especially in light of increasing EPA, state, and local codes.

You'll have regulations on two ends. One as a producer and another as a distributor. I can't even imagine the hoops you'll have to jump through just to comply with the regulations to produce it. I don't know how it is where you live, but in Ohio if you sell gas I believe it must be from an uderground tank. Agricultural/personal use can use above ground. Which means tank monitoring equipment, soil samples, tank license fees, etc.. In the next town over from me there is even a minimum amount of fuel you must pump yearly just to keep your license to sell fuel.

My guess is financially speaking you'll be much farther ahead making enough for your own use and staying under the radar.

Welcome aboard.

there will be isssues w/ the computer....
MUST SHOW AND BE ABLE TO CALCULATE AT ACTUAL PRICE PER GALLON

Ok, I'm gonna work backwards up this list-

jkyocom, what kind of issues will there be, and how can the be resolved? Let me rephrase that... who can fix that for me?

Ohio Oil, I am particularly glad to hear from you. You brought up some of the more critical details that would have gone over my head. When I got the idea to use a antique gas pump over a 55 gallon drum and hand pump, I decided to go with a regulation underground tank. Of course, this is all without the exact knowledge of cost, and specific details regarding the regulations there. From what I have been able to find, the EPA is demanding a double system- you need to have a container around your container, and another container around the pipes. But, I just got off the phone with a tank vendor who assures me that above ground tanks are the way to go. Anything you can add to that would be greatly appreciated. As far as a minimum amount to be sold... that in itself may cripple a commercial effort, if the fees and taxes don't get me first.

Kurt, I remember well the pump inspector from my days as a pump jockey. And I also know there are a lot of places that don't get inspected nearly often enough. But thanks for reminding me to stay above board on that. So many details, it is easy to forget one.

If you are looking for a pump system that will hold up to dispensing ethanol, I would say use Tokheim.
But an update will be needed for the meter so it has the stainless cylinders and teflon piston cups....898-k Tokheim meter is what you will need.
Wayne 2 piston meters #4, #5, have roller bearings and teflon cups and stanless sleeves.
You could use the best of different manufacurers components and build a frankenstein guts system.
As far as I know ethanol is water soluable so there could be rusting issues if there is not daily usage.

A Bowser pumping unit is about the smallest I know of and would have the smallest area internally to try to rust. The Wayne METER is aluminum and stainless and is the smallest, so you could have lots of room, a bowser or G&B air eliminator could be used.....since a BENNETT 76 computer uses the "LEG" mounts under the computer, a modern computer will bolt up w/ no modification.
The sight glasses will probably need to be omitted by LAW.
More than likely a 2 part face would have to be made since crankbacks and later 2000 models have different heads and faces will not interchange.
A later computer face and a part over and around it like picture mat.
Then there will still be an issue of controll ....how is the computer going to be reset
Veeder Root makes an electric reset but there will have to be a way to shut off power to deter theft.

You would have to have a switch on the lever under the nozzle to energize the electric reset, and use the crank to turn reset on & off....up or down for open and close circuit.
There is a biz in Cartersville that can supply you with a rebuilt, calibrated meter.

Capt.: I believe underground vs. above ground tanks is a state not federal mandate. You'll need to check with Georgia, pretty sure in Ohio it's underground for commercial.


Not trying to bore you, but...small time operations that are not directly owned/controlled by oil companies are called jobbers. Mom and pop jobbers are dropping by the wayside because they cannot move enough product to stay viable given all the requirements, insurances, fees, and taxes. Larger jobbers are gobbling them up leaving two major players in the business...Big Oil companies and large jobbers.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but you would be bucking the trend to pull off a mom and pop operation producing and distributing your own product.

Good luck to you, it's the American spirit to dream and accomplish great things.

jkyocom, again, thanks for your insight. The model specifics will save me a ton of time. About the site glass, are they common, or are there certain models that don't have them? And why would they have to be removed? Also, what exactly would necessitate changing the face, a modern computer?

This country was founded by people who shouted "Buck the system"!

As far as the tank, the vender said the above grounds would be acceptable, but I'll check with the Fire Marshall and EPA about that too.