Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums General Petroliana Discussion Amistadi's Antique Advertising

Wayne Henderson of PCM Publishing told me he did the layout of the Amistadi sign book. He found a few of the photos being considered for the book were of lesser quality. So he substituted higher quality photos that had been submitted to Petroleum Collectibles Monthly for publication. PCM owns the publishing rights to those photos. Richard Amistadi did not make the decision on the use of those photos. Let's not beat him up for what appears to be legal use by the publisher.

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Jim "Oldgas" Potts
Your host and moderator

I don't subscribe to PCM, I'm still wondering how he/they got the photo?? Guess I'll figure out who's taken photo's of my collection & see who "submitted it"...

Hey everyone.

As a person who works with Copyrighted Images and Registered Trademarks every day, I feel that the actual gist of this matter has not been addressed.

First off, let's get 'ownership' taken care of. Say you own a sign - or a globe - or whatever. You only own that item - not the Copyright or the Trademark - just that specific item. Everybody clear on that?

Now let's talk about photography. According to Copyright laws - the person who takes the photograph owns that photograph. This does not have anything to do with the ownership of the actual item itself - just the photograph. Once YOU take the photograph, you can use it anyway you want to. Remember, you own the image. If you want to use it in a book, sell it as posters, make it into T-shirts, etc. - you can do that without the permission of the person that owns the item itself.

Now there are a few things you can't do with an photograph. You can't take a photograph of a copyrighted piece of art - all by itself - and reproduce it. That would be Copyright infringment. By the same token, you can't take a shot of a Trademark (I.E. a Chevrolet logo) - all by itself - and reproduce it. That would be Trademark Infringment.

You CAN make a completely new piece of art (a painting for example) and show a Texaco gas station and a General Motors dealership with a Chevy sign out front. That is okay since you are making new art - and you will 'own' the Copyright to the painting a soon as you 'publish' it. Texaco and GM can't touch you. You won't own the Copyright or the Trademark for the Texaco or Chevy logos - just the actual image depicted in your painting.

Everyone clear on these points?

Now lets talk about the Amistadi book.

Any publisher will make you prove 'ownership' of every photo you intend to use in your book. They will require 'releases' from the person or corporation that owns the image. No publisher wants to be sued for Copyright Infringment.

Now that the book is 'published', Amistadi owns all the images in the book. They can not be reproduced without his or the publisher's permission. The original 'owners' have released their claims on the images and they now transfer to Amistadi.

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Remember, if you let ANYBODY take a shot of any of your collectables - that person can do whatever they want to with the resulting photo. And if you submit a photo to a book or a periodical (or this web site) you are automatically giving permission to use the image as they see fit.

If anyone needs any more information. I'd suggest you visit the Library of Congress, U.S. Copyright Office web page: http://www.copyright.gov/

Later . . .

Jim




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www.T-waysGraphics.com

[This message has been edited by T-way (edited 07-14-2005).]

I always wondered how that worked. You did a great job ox explaining it. Thanks.

Thanks for explaining it Tway. I do have one question. What if someone takes a picture of your items without your permission. I'm talking about at your home or shop, not in a public setting. I heard a "discussion" between a guy that took a picture and intended to publish it and the guy that the object of the picture belonged to.
It was in a public setting. The guy wanting to publish the pictures said he didn't need permission because the item was in public view. That makes sense.
The other guy countered with a comment that the same guy had photgraphed his collection in private without permission and published some of the pictures. The guy taking pictures didn't have a good response to that point.
I guess my question is what happens when the owner of the photo that was taken in a private setting didn't have permission to photograph it to start with?
I would think a person's right to privacy would outweigh the ownership rights of the photographer.

So what all this means is that the picture of the Sinclair Benzol globe that I "OWN" can be put on this website without the owner of the globe being able to say anything. Anyone want to see it?? Just let me know.

Not sure about the right to privacy issue.
But if you took it you own it(the image)I have taken thousands of polaroids of kids and Santa and I own the rights to everyone of them. I have been called for a release several times by Walmart and others when people show up and try to dupe one of my polaroids. If someone sneeks in, snaps a photo of your collection they can do what they want with it as far as publication.I
don't think there are alot of petro paparazzi
out there so I wouldn't worry to much.

Roger,
Tway said:
"Now let's talk about photography. According to Copyright laws - the person who takes the photograph owns that photograph."
1. You didn't take the photograph.
2. Even if you did, the rules of this site prohibit you posting it.

Buster,
"If someone sneeks in, snaps a photo of your collection they can do what they want with it as far as publication.I
don't think there are alot of petro paparazzi
out there so I wouldn't worry to much."

I don't know what the law says about it, but if someone took pictures of my stuff INSIDE MY HOME WITHOUT MY CONSENT and then published them, they'd have a problem on their hands!
I don't mind everyone seening most of my collection, but there are a few pieces that the only way anyone sees is by invitation only. Those pieces don't get photographed without my permission.
More of this stuff goes on than most people realize. I think we'll see more disputes about stuff like this as the value of what we collect goes up.


[This message has been edited by Lastgas15 (edited 07-14-2005).]

The picture was "given" to me. I own it now, not the taker of the picture. I read the rules of the site and nowhere that I can figure does it say I can't put a picture on this site that I own. Could you please tell me what part of the rules you are talking about? I can't find it.

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this forum to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this Web site. You agree to not send objectionable email to other members of this forum. You agree to not use a second forum identity in a deceptive way.

Those are the rules I read and can't figure out where it says I can't post the Sinclair picture. I own the picture, it was given to me freely, so unless there is something going on I don't know about, I still believe I should be able to post it. T-way, what is your take on it? Just curious.

It's the long standing policy of this site that we will not publish an image of an item when the owner of that item objects to its being published. Any further posts on the subject of the globe in question will be deleted.

Bob Drake
Lastgas15, oldgas.com administration

AND..........
Is it any wonder why the "legal industry" is doing so well in the USA? Everything seems to be an arguement anymore. And to
think...at a place we celebrate the past,
the modern day is having its way
LET'S MOVE ON....

Roger:

Sorry - but you don't own the photo unless the photographer signed a release to you giving away his rights to the image. He just gave you a copy of his Copyrighted image instead of selling you one.

If Copyright or Trademark law worked that way, I'd own the Harley-Davidson FatBoy logo on my bike. See what I mean?

Bob:

If someone takes a shot of one of your items (with or without your permission), they still own the actual pohotographic image. Unathorized photography is a different matter than Copyright law - it gets into Privacy Rights and other legal issues. If you sue - and win - the photographer can be required to give you all negatives/digital copies and can be fined.

Copyright law is different. For 'willful' Infringment of a Copyrighted image, the judge can award 'up to' $30,000.00 in fines PER IMAGE if they want to. The infringer also has to turn over all the files and any items bearing the Copyrighted image - and all profits resulting from the sales of the infringed images.

Most of us will not take photos unless we have premission. And I always ask beforehand if I can take a shot and if I can use the image on my web site for reference or future production.

Now things at swap meets or auctions are a different matter all together. Those are in the 'Public Domain' and I can shoot to my heart's content. After all, the stuff is being advertized for sale and nobody will buy something without seeing it. If the owner of the item doesn't want the public to see it - they should keep it at home.

Hope this helps.

Later . . .

Jim

[This message has been edited by T-way (edited 07-14-2005).]

Tway,
Thanks, that's pretty much how I thought it worked.

So T-way, if I interpret what you are saying, the next time I see an ebay listing or website using photos THAT my in-house graphics/photographer girl took, I have legal recourse against them?? Let's say I take a pic of an air meter that I am repo'ing to put in my catalog, then somebody pastes that pic into their ebay ad....I can bust them right? But what if it is a pic I took of a capco Texaco globe that I hold the license on? Can I go after them for using MY pic of TEXACO's trademark?
I'm not being specific so nobody get worried, I have given the go ahead to a lot of guys to use our pics, just wondering for the future....anyone remember F1ordparts from ebay....also know as fartech? That was his m.o.

[This message has been edited by Seth Robbins (edited 07-14-2005).]